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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30326: Nov 6th 2020 at 7:52:00 AM

I honestly don't even care if it's in an EP format, just cover the points we care about and I'm happy.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#30327: Nov 6th 2020 at 7:53:44 AM

Yeah eps aren't like mandatory.

You can just do a summary with all the info in it. It's just eps help to clean up and order the stuff better.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30328: Nov 6th 2020 at 7:58:23 AM

They're nice because they break down all the points in nice sections but it's very much specific lingo no one will know unless they frequent the thread. As long as buddy can dice it up nicely so I can see which of their paragraphs apply to which criteria we good.

To give some more thoughts on the Joker: what sold me was in my talks on the side with Ravok about him it sounds like the implication is doing things like giving hundred dollar bills is something he considers equally enjoyable to the chaos he brings. It also sounds like tonally he's much more devoted to proving a point rather than just getting his jollies doing this shit. Ravok also mentioned to me he does seem genuinely afflicted and saddened by whatever happened in his implied and multiple choice past. Throw in the details on his planning mitigating the film version's possible Villain Sue status and I'm just comfortable enough with him, especially as he's less stand out with other villains jacked up for atrocity. That being said, he is still quite nasty and may as well be a de facto sadist in some of his crimes. Thoughts and votes appreciated.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#30329: Nov 6th 2020 at 7:59:45 AM

[tup] to Novel!Joker

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#30331: Nov 6th 2020 at 8:27:55 AM

You know, I honestly wonder if it might be a good idea to have designated "mentors" to people discovering this thread for the first time, to help them learn the ropes.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#30332: Nov 6th 2020 at 8:30:05 AM

I mean I don't know if you're talking to me, but in the post I linked to, I did summarize what an EP entails.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#30333: Nov 6th 2020 at 8:32:39 AM

[up][up] We could replace that with everyone agreeing to not bite the newbies, tbh

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30334: Nov 6th 2020 at 8:51:14 AM

I don't know if the "mentors" idea would work, it's a nice thought but I'm not sure anyone will be able to consistently be able to provide that kind of support. In this circumstance people were just curious to see something laid out in a format they're used to but I think Library has the right idea, phrase the question without using technical language and just emphasis the points of importance we like to see here.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#30336: Nov 6th 2020 at 10:03:06 AM

Since I'd consider upvoting the real one anyway and this version has less mitigating factors, [tup] Novel TDK!Joker

Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Nov 6th 2020 at 10:50:26 AM

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#30337: Nov 6th 2020 at 11:01:50 AM

Based on what I’ve read, [tup] to the novel version of the Joker. Sounds less like the epitome of evil here.

Still asking about who asked about Bodhi before. I don’t want to go doing him when someone else is or was working on him first. 2015 remake version probably counts too. That movie f-ing sucks though, so I don’t feel like doing it right now.

Also, Imhotep is only in two of the three movies, so is it appropriate to say Mummy Trilogy? Then again, it differentiates him from other Mummy movies though to do so.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 6th 2020 at 11:09:15 AM

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#30338: Nov 6th 2020 at 11:44:56 AM

Honestly, I think the best solution would to simply direct newcomers to the first post that gives an explanation, as well as direct them to some examples of effort posts for them to get an idea of the template.

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Nov 6th 2020 at 2:45:21 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30339: Nov 6th 2020 at 12:24:19 PM

I appreciate the shout out to my post Awesome but I ain't infallible and lots of new people have come up with neat ways to intuitively communicate all necessary info and I'm totally down to do it that way. On this thread in particular you'll notice no two people do an EP in the exact same way anyways. If anyone has another suggestion or think we can just spit out a few bullet points to get the newcomers going in the right direction I think that would be sufficient.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#30340: Nov 6th 2020 at 5:00:47 PM

  • Jamaica Inn: Francis Davey, the vicar of Altarnun, is a seemingly friend albino man who is the true leader of Joss Merlyn's gang of wreckers. Having sought enlightenment in Christianity, Davey abandoned it for his own form of ancient paganism, secretly masterminding the gang's wrecking of ships and murders of their crew while befriended heroine Mary to both manipulate her and keep his identity secret before murdering Joss and his wife Patience. Intending to flee with his wealth, Davey attempts to push Mary to join him in his religion out of his respect for her.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30341: Nov 6th 2020 at 5:45:06 PM

If anyone has a contention or more points for the Joker do they wanna weigh in? This one has been eerily straightforward and I feel like if we don’t get it all out someone’s gonna question it or try to twist the arguments to say why the film version or whoever their other favourite sick fuck Complete Monster is counts.

@ future, Just go for it man, they’ve left it long enough.

Edited by 43110 on Nov 6th 2020 at 8:45:59 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#30342: Nov 6th 2020 at 5:55:25 PM

I mean I'm fine with Novel!Joker mostly since from the sounds of it, his actions are less heinous and the VS traits appear nonexistent here.

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#30343: Nov 6th 2020 at 6:10:37 PM

Ditto on Novel Joker. Yes to him.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#30344: Nov 6th 2020 at 6:11:54 PM

Agreed with 43 on this, Novel!Joker is one I expected a lot more contention on, so if anyone has any further thoughts or points of debate to bring up, I'd much prefer to knock it out now before he goes through the process of being written up and listed.

Now, to give my own final word on it, that I think solidifies that yes, the standard of the novels is undeniably higher than the films—which in turn means Joker is even further from being the "end-all monster" of the films, and I think needs to be kept in mind as to why this one can count?

On top of Crane's added villainy, Ra's Al Ghul himself is given a hefty segment showcasing he was behind Adolf Hitler and World War II as a whole, and he explicitly reveals near the end that he plans to use Gotham and Crane's fear gas as a springboard to cleanse the world of billions of lives he considers weak or "too corrupt to be saved".

To conclude my overall thoughts here, Novel!Joker is different from the film in that he:

  • Has a very viable Pet the Dog that simultaneously showcases that he believes in his rhetoric and his goal isn't in itself sadism—unlike the movie.

  • Is up against a much stauncher heinous standard which includes not only film canon acts like Bane and Talia turning Gotham into a cesspool then trying to nuke it, but also added crimes of Ra's being responsible for the Nazis and explicitly planning to kill billions, as well as relative nobody Crane being given worse acts.

  • Lacks his film counterpart's (pretty notably brutal) crime of forcing a group of men to kill each other with a broken pool stick, replacing it with poisoning a man for trying to spy on him.

Novel!Joker's not as stand-out horrible with worse villains, not as cut-and-paste Complete Monster, and not purely a For the Evulz Sadist, and all this together is why I proposed him and believe he counts, unlike his film counterpart. Add-in that he's implied by the narrative to have a genuine sorrow underneath all of the laughter and evil, and he's a much more complex take, which in turns lends him more, IMO, to hitting this trope.

Edited by Ravok on Nov 6th 2020 at 6:14:37 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30345: Nov 6th 2020 at 6:27:42 PM

Neatly summed up as usual my friend and with that I'm happy to say we've got ample discussion to point to if anything does pop up later down the line. This wasn't thoughtlessly upvoted by any means and we've made our due diligence more than apparent.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#30346: Nov 6th 2020 at 6:56:57 PM

He sounds from what I can tell like he mixes things up a bit and thus, he’s not petty or cruel the way that the film one is.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 6th 2020 at 10:36:06 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30347: Nov 6th 2020 at 7:00:00 PM

For sure and talking to the side more about Ra's in this continuity... the shit he does pull is utterly eclipsed by others and this feels like a Scirocco or Kimblee situation, characters I pointedly only proposed because they look better compared to some others they share canon with. Not breaching CM can help sometimes.

Also having just gotten into the series heavy, I wanna take Scream 5 for MB just for fun... fuck it, who knows, maybe we'll get another serial killer doing their thing in the hopes of foraging a strong heroine out of Sid by way of suffering.

Edited by 43110 on Nov 6th 2020 at 10:01:06 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#30348: Nov 6th 2020 at 10:38:18 PM

[up]Would definitely be interesting to see if a Scream movie could produce an MB at some point.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#30349: Nov 6th 2020 at 11:41:50 PM

Okay so you all were wondering about Bert Cooper so here he is, but first let's talk about the work that he’s in, Mad Men.

What’s The Work?

Mad Men is an American period drama that follows the professional and personal life of Don Draper the talented creative director of the Sterling Cooper advertisement agency in New York and a founding partner of Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce, while deciding and deconstructing the changing moods and social mores of the United States throughout the 1960s and 70s. Among the people him Draper’s life none are arguably as brilliantly cunning and charming as Bert Cooper.

Who Is He? What Has He Done?

Bertram “Bert” Cooper is the senior partner and co-founder of Sterling Sterling Cooper who highly revered and respected by his fellow employees especially by Roger Sterling and Don Draper with his eccentric nature masking Bertram true crafty and cunning personality, making sure that his authority is well respected.

When cunning diabolicalness was mentioned by Roger Cooper where he half-seriously claims that Bert had his old doctor killed as revenge for performing an unnecessary surgery that cost Bert his testicle, which Bert doesn’t deny.

This is shown during Season 1 when Pete Campbell attempts to blackmail Don Draper by revealing to Bert that “Don Draper” isn’t actually Don Draper but a soldier named Richard "Dick" Whitman who took the Don Draper’s identity to leave the Korean War after the latter died during the War, Bert simply says “who cares” keeping Don’s identity a secret, thus foiling Pete’s plans and letting Don stay at the firm.

However Bert would use Don’s secret to blackmail Don into doing what he want such as during Season 3 when Bert forces Don to sign a contract that would merge Sterling Cooper with the British Agency, Puttnam, Powell, and Lowe, (PPL) by threatening to expose Don’s true identity should Don not do so, successfully getting Don to sign the contract.

When PPL decides to sell Sterling Cooper to a rival agency, Bert, Don and Roger all decide to form a new company convince PPL’s representative, Lane Pryce to fire them thus allowing them to form a new company Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce (SCDP) and created a list of clients loyal to them which they plan to hire once the new company is formed while stealing important documents that would smooth the transition.

In Season 4, Bert would find the new advertisement company first major clients Honda, by using his knowledge and love for Japanese culture along his natural charisma. Unfortunately, Roger prejudice towards the Japanese causes some tension between SCDP resulting in Honda not given them a gift for Christmas.

Then Don writes an ad on a newspaper titled “Why I’m Quitting Tobacco” resulting in SCDP loosing the tobacco company, Lucky Strike, as a client and causing Bert to temporarily quit SCDP to recuperate his thought before returning to the company in Season 5.

By Season 6 Cooper effectively runs SCDP while conspiring with Pete and Joan to turn SCDP into a publicly traded company all of which was done behind Roger and Don’s back. This would eventually attract the attention of Jim Cutler who merges SCDP with Jim’s own advertisement company.

Bert along with his new allies Cutler, Pete, and Joan would then kick Don Draper out of the company for his recent behavior while removing his name along with Pryce’s who died and renaming the newly merged company "Sterling Cooper & Partners.”

However Jim would try to assert his control within “Sterling Cooper & Partners” during season 7, especially when Jim hires Lou Avery to replace Don as creative director, which leads to Bert rehiring Don Draper back into the firm and eventually the two would prevent Lou and Avery from taking control of “Sterling Cooper & Partners” and Bert would give Don back the title Creative Director, though Bert keep Don under strict provision to control Don’s behavior

Eventually old age would catch up to Bert and he would die on the evening of Sunday, July 20, 1969, but not before watching the Apollo 11 moon landing and saying “Bravo!” While smiling dying with complete dignity, grace, and happiness.

Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?

As the oldest member of all the ad companies he was Bert Cooper is extremely intelligent and charismatic orchestrating events, manipulating, blackmailing, and standing up to people to get what he want which has earned the respect and admiration of everyone who has worked with and for him, and is the only person to have gotten away with blackmailing Don.

Even if things don’t go as initially as planed or if he’s met with certain obstacles, Bert never looses his cool and composure only shows mild annoyance at best, before figuring out ways to outmaneuver these obstacles and make them work to his advantages. Hell Bert even manages to die completely on his own terms, passing away as one of the shows most dignified and charming characters.

What's The Competition Like?

Bert stands out as one of if not the most brilliant, charming, devious and dignified character in the whole series with hardly anyone coming close to Bert’s level. Of course Don is quite close being quite the charming, conniving bastard but ultimately makes too many mistakes that damages his personal life and his mistakes eventually gets Don fired from his job. There’s also Bob Benson who could also count but I think I’ll get to Bob tomorrow or the next day. For now Bert Cooper clears the competition here by far.

Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard

Okay Bert was willing to hide a war fugitive in his own company and would eventually blackmail him into doing what he wants and eventually throws him under the bus by firing him, willing to manipulate own employees should it benefit him and it is implied that he has a man kill as revenge, so I’d say Bert is enough of a bastard to be considered. That said Bert has numerous qualities that prevents him from being to much of a bastard.

First off, Bert doesn’t seem to be sexist, racist, nor bigoted compared to everyone else who works at the film, with his only objection to a black person being a receptionist is that if visitors will see her and given that they are very racist to black people during the 50s, it would potentially damage the company’s reputation and Bert himself doesn’t show much, if at all any, bigotry towards black people nor different from him.

In fact, Bert is a lover of different cultures, especially Japanese culture where his office is decorated with several Japanese motifs such as shōji dividers, and has even took the Japanese custom of requires visitors to remove their shoes before entering his office being a Occidental Otaku in the racist 50s. He was also completely disgusted and against his employees prostituting Joan for a contract, even telling Joan that she can stop anytime she wants to.

Plus, Bert’s reasons for keeping Don’s secret safe is that America is the land of opportunity, and that their past should not define a person, not caring who Don once was, with his interests being on how good Don is a creative director and how much money that Don’s skill have brought to the company. Though he was willing to using his secret to blackmail Don into doing what he wants which adds to the bastard part.

Final Verdict?

I’ll leave it to you guys.

Edited by G-Editor on Nov 6th 2020 at 9:52:07 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#30350: Nov 7th 2020 at 2:39:45 AM

In sure to [tup]Bert

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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