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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#30276: Nov 4th 2020 at 7:09:29 PM

I'm not sure how much more needs to be added to the conversation to get the point across, but here's a video on General Treister being a troll to highlight his Obfuscating Insanity. It's an example of how being a troll can actually be done right to add to a character's magnificence, in this case using trolling to establish authority over a group of supervillains.

Edited by LoreDeluxe on Nov 4th 2020 at 7:11:55 AM

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#30277: Nov 4th 2020 at 7:11:14 PM

Found an unapproved Magnificent Bastard wick on Obfuscating Stupidity referring to... well, Homestar Runner of all things:

  • Homestar Runner: Although most of the time Homestar seems just plain dumb, in the Strong Bad Email "stupid stuff", he tricks Strong Bad into using reverse psychology in order to win a bet and make Strong Bad lose his. Then, in "Kick-A-Ball" he seems to have made an outrageous scheme to use Strong Bad's own cheating against him. When they were picking teams at Kickball he picks Pom Pom and whispers Strong Sad as well, which appears to be his wacky non sequitur. However, he then goes on to go through nine innings with himself and Pom Pom alone and is two points ahead with only one out left. He gets Strong Sad to hold out his arms and catch the last ball of the game because Strong Bad didn't know he was on Homestar's team. This only works because Strong Bad cheated a long time ago by adding "double side-mouth whisper drafts are totally legal!" to the rules. Homestar has officially stolen Strong Bad's claim to Magnificent Bastardry.note 

Needless to say, Homestar easily doesn't qualify because he's legitimately stupid. And for that matter, Strong Bad doesn't really count either. I cut the wick and linked to the thread in my edit reason.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#30278: Nov 4th 2020 at 7:15:04 PM

Yeah, you definitely have to be smart to be this and Homestar certainly is...not.

Who brought up Bodhi before by the way? I’m planning to rewatch Point Break soon and might do him unless whoever mentioned him before does him first.

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#30279: Nov 4th 2020 at 8:08:02 PM

I'd be happy to work with Imp on restructuring and touching up the Lelouch entry... few other things I might do with the page too, nothing major though. Obviously I'll run them through the thread first.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Nov 4th 2020 at 8:08:17 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30280: Nov 4th 2020 at 8:32:13 PM

Do as you see fit Riley, full faith in you both it'll be great!

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#30281: Nov 5th 2020 at 5:06:06 AM

Just a thingy: on the video we have for King Barlowe, it’s missing the work name in the media sources, it should have “The New Batman Adventures E7 "Joker's Millions"

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#30282: Nov 5th 2020 at 5:34:59 AM

[up] I still love the fact that you could now say that The Joker committed tax fraud. Man, the internet has utterly ruined my sense of humor.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30283: Nov 5th 2020 at 7:08:01 AM

I think it's on the sandbox page if you'd like to add that in nwot.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#30284: Nov 5th 2020 at 7:55:54 AM

Wording about The Mummy (1999) draft for Imhotep: Anck-su-Namun was Seti I's mistress, not his wife.

Edited by k410ren on Nov 5th 2020 at 10:56:24 AM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#30285: Nov 5th 2020 at 8:11:03 AM

Second movie said she was his wife

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30286: Nov 5th 2020 at 8:40:30 AM

Pretty sure they were married.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#30287: Nov 5th 2020 at 9:44:41 AM

First film has Ardeth Bey describe her as Seti's mistress.

The Wiki says concubine, not sure what to do from there.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#30288: Nov 5th 2020 at 10:09:25 AM

The second film has a flashback when Seti calls her his soon-to-be-wife before she and Imhotep begin the affair.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30289: Nov 5th 2020 at 10:27:27 AM

I ain't gonna worry too much on this one lol

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#30290: Nov 5th 2020 at 11:06:47 AM

Anybody here watch Mad Men? I did some searching and I could only find some talk in the early days of the thread, but not much else. Let me start by saying from what I've read I don't think Don counts. I think he is unscrupulous and cunning enough in his planning at the law firm and in his personal life, but he has the same problem as Rick and House do: an absolute wreck of a personal life. However from what I've read, Bert Cooper seems to have the unscrupulousness, cunning, and even is an Occidental Otaku in the very racist 1950s. In addition even though he's at a very misogynistic law-firm when he finds out one of his employees is prostituting herself for a contract he's vehemently against it and says she can stop anytime she wants to. I've read he even successfully blackmails Don, and Don never even tries to retaliate.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#30291: Nov 5th 2020 at 11:26:11 AM

[up] If you think he's worth an EP, go ahead.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#30292: Nov 5th 2020 at 11:29:16 AM

I haven't watched it, that's why I was asking if anybody else has seen it.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#30293: Nov 5th 2020 at 11:32:52 AM

I think G is familiar with it.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30294: Nov 5th 2020 at 11:38:03 AM

Good catch on noticing the other one there j! I’ll hear it when it comes, knowing nothing about the series.

k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#30295: Nov 5th 2020 at 12:59:01 PM

Changed mistress back to wife for Imhotep's entry.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#30296: Nov 5th 2020 at 1:58:42 PM

Wow Its been a while since I saw Mad Men but yeah I can attest to J that Don Draper's probably doesn't count. While he's probably one of my favorite characters and is definitely smart, charming, a bastard and progressive in his time, Don's personal life is a total mess which isn't help that he usually brings these things it upon himself, with just some of the examples is that Don repeatedly cheats on his two wives with one instance his daughter Sally catches him at the act.

Bert Cooper might count but I'll have to re-watch some scenes to remember what he does. Anyone else who seen the show can EP Cooper if they want to. Also I'm a little busy at the moment so If anyone still wants to do Zelos, Kratos, Yuan, and Mithos from Tales from Symphonia they are free to do so, as I'm not sure when I might get to them and I'm not a fan of reserving candidates.

[down] I’m aware of that you can put candidates on the to-do list (I have Evil Morty and Dom Torretto on mine) I’m just not fan of putting candidates on there unless I’m almost finished with a work and there is someone that I absolutely want to do so that way don’t feel pressured on doing candidates while allow others to post them should they want to. Plus I know that klavice immortal angel Newton wants to post candidates from Symphonia while probably Lightysnake and Erazor would want to do so as well

EDIT: You know what I think I am going to put Bert Cooper on my to-do list. He's easily the most dignified and dastardly likable character in the series, and I'm probably the only one here who watched Mad Men (I remember Ilrose said that he watched that show but he's been absent for quite some time)

Edited by G-Editor on Nov 5th 2020 at 1:14:40 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30297: Nov 5th 2020 at 2:26:53 PM

Doesn't hurt to have them on your to do as a reminder. I think it's well known how informal that page is anyways.

astrixzero from Sydney Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#30298: Nov 5th 2020 at 4:58:39 PM

I'm working on an expansion of Once Upon a Time in China and wish to expand the MB entry. I'm thinking of adding the pirate king from part 5, which most people have not seen.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#30299: Nov 5th 2020 at 5:06:41 PM

[up] Then make an effortpost summarizing the character, whilst pointing out: how much of a bastard the guy is, how much cunning he has, how much charm he has, and any mitigating factors: is he outwitted, is he too vile? etc. More detail is provided at the top under "MB Administrivia".

Edited by jjjj2 on Nov 5th 2020 at 8:07:08 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30300: Nov 5th 2020 at 5:44:32 PM

Hi, welcome. Like j say, follow the EP format for the character you’d like to propose and I look forward to seeing it. As for expanding the existing entry can you tell me what the problem with it is as it stands?


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