TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30001: Nov 1st 2020 at 7:48:22 PM

Oh lit... anyways, I'm not an ASOIAF/GoT fan so can't comment.

Also order? When I re-add Lighty's I'm sure he'll be cool with you potholing her too Lore.

@ j, Toranaga's series is quite famous, I strongly advocate keeping him on the How To page. J. R. got commented out by Guma despite us saying he's been noted to keep, just needs to be EP'd... no clue what happened there.

Edited by 43110 on Nov 1st 2020 at 10:50:51 AM

LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#30002: Nov 1st 2020 at 7:51:30 PM

[up]I'd say put Bronn first since he's introduced first.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#30003: Nov 1st 2020 at 8:03:12 PM

[up][up]Yeah probably me being an example of Pop-Cultural Osmosis Failure...

Edited by jjjj2 on Nov 1st 2020 at 11:05:42 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ATricksterArtist Back from the grave. from CH 57 (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Back from the grave.
#30005: Nov 2nd 2020 at 5:23:56 AM

[tup] for Vise, [tdown] for Magenta.

As a side-note, happy 30k posts! ^.^

How's your day been?
Spark9 Since: Nov, 2010
#30006: Nov 2nd 2020 at 5:45:30 AM

I just came across MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist and I get the impression that whoever wrote it doesn't really understand the trope, and thinks it's about being a cunning combatant. Can someone doublecheck my thoughts, and remove examples that don't fit?

First off, the Big Bad of the series (Father) is very much an example, so I'm surprised to see he's not on the page. Deuteragonist Roy Mustang is arguably also an example.

  • Lust. Yes, she's an example of the trope, but her paragraph waxes lyrical about how she's a vicious fighter and nearly kills a protagonist in combat, neither of which has anything to do with this trope. And, does she really need listing for Original Manga and the 2003 Anime and the Live Action film; considering she's mostly the same character in each?
  • Solf is not an example. He's a psychopath with Blue-and-Orange Morality. Again the paragraph talks a lot about his combat tactics, which is not this trope. Fails the "magnificent" part of the trope.
  • Grumman's entry looks fine.
  • Isaac is a minor character with a major grudge, who takes a lot of effort to put down; but again this trope isn't supposed to be about surviving multiple battles. Isaac is well-prepared but not particularly manipulative or magnificent. Fails to be a chessmaster, and while he's a good planner he fails to think on his feet (which is why he loses).
  • Scar is a complexly motivated character with high combat skills and so forth, but nothing about his entry suggests he's an MB. Not a chessmaster at all, he's a lone warrior that hunts down alchemists.
  • Psiren looks like a Gentleman Thief or something like that; nothing about her strikes me as manipulative. In other words: not a Bastard.

Edited by Spark9 on Nov 2nd 2020 at 6:01:16 AM

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#30007: Nov 2nd 2020 at 5:51:00 AM

[up]... Yeah, I ain't touching this one.

Also, i'm pretty sure Scar's profile is referring to the anime version.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Nov 2nd 2020 at 5:59:48 AM

ccorb from A very hot place Since: May, 2020 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#30008: Nov 2nd 2020 at 5:57:04 AM

[up][up] I'm not that familiar with FMA but looking at the entry now I see Kimblee is too vile to be a MB. He's basically a sociopath who happens to be a good tactician.

Rock'n'roll never dies!
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#30009: Nov 2nd 2020 at 6:09:00 AM

[up] He was reviewed and upvoted by the thread recently. I personally don't agree, but you need tangible reasons to take down someone approved

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#30010: Nov 2nd 2020 at 6:14:07 AM

I'm gonna wait for someone more knowledgeable to show up and talk them over fully, but we've had extensive discussions on all these characters, and have discussed Father and why he doesn't count. Also, the person who effortposted and added a fair number of those entries, including Kimblee, is the curator of this thread and gave excellent reasoning as to why.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#30011: Nov 2nd 2020 at 6:15:26 AM

As for Father, someone whose final moments involve him crying, screaming, and begging not to be taken back, is someone who does not count for this.

In addition Lust is definitely not mostly the same character in each. She becomes very different from her Brotherhood self in 2003.

And Scar in 2003 definitely does count. Tricking the soldiers into Lior and then sacrificing them, while also thinking on his feet when Alphonse is turned into a bomb qualifies him. He's not conventional, but he counts.

Edited by jjjj2 on Nov 2nd 2020 at 9:46:42 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#30012: Nov 2nd 2020 at 6:16:13 AM

Falls under the mbs must not be a Dirty Coward.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#30013: Nov 2nd 2020 at 6:34:23 AM

Hi, please don't come into a cleanup thread telling us we don't "understand" what we've reviewed, proposed and upvoted. Starting a conversation with an insult isn't advised.

We have long decided an MB can be such on a small-scale as well

Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 2nd 2020 at 6:36:06 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#30014: Nov 2nd 2020 at 6:36:08 AM

1. Being a vicious fighter is not a disqualifier 2. I don’ think Blue-and-Orange Morality is a disqualifier 3. Issac was judged by how much he made of it 4. Father undergoes a Villainous Breakdown 5. Watch your tone, the people who submitted them are the ones who started the thread and are some of the most experienced ones here, if anything I think it’s YOU who doesn’t understand this trope.

Edited by nwotyzal on Nov 2nd 2020 at 6:36:59 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30015: Nov 2nd 2020 at 6:56:50 AM

This has all been thoroughly explained. The entries detail how they hit the various aspects of this trope and you have done nothing in your “arguments” but misinform or misinterpret what was written. If you wanted to sit down and discuss this there was obviously a better way to word yourself and more logical and informative counterpoints could have been made. Likewise I don’t think you understand the trope and amongst all the faults in your logic, this is YMMV, you’re not the god of it who dictates how everyone has to interpret these characters.

I’ll start pulling Re’s on each of your sections when I’m in a better mood.

Edited by 43110 on Nov 2nd 2020 at 9:59:42 AM

Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#30016: Nov 2nd 2020 at 7:16:57 AM

I'd been meaning to present this example earlier, but anyways, a last belated Halloween one:

What is the work?

The Faculty, a 1998 horror thriller directed by Robert Rodriguez and written by Kevin Williamson, the writer of Scream. It's basically The Breakfast Club... with an Alien Invasion! Like most such horror films in the late 90s early 2000s, there's Genre Savvy characters aplenty, but overall hilariously dated at this point. A host of Puppeteer Parasite aliens start infecting the faculty of a high school in small town Ohio, starting with the football coach and the principal before expanding to the rest of the school. Which brings us to the mastermind, who can only be discussed by spoiling the entire thing.

Who is the Queen Alien? What has she done?

The aliens inhabiting the humans are obligate parasites who are actually the offspring of a giant waterdwelling Hive Queen who controls them through a psychic connection. Out of curiosity, she decides to walk among humans in the form of a sweet girl named Marybeth, a New Transfer Student from Atlanta who quickly befriends the main cast (nerd Casey, popular girl Delilah, jock Stan, goth girl Stokely, and delinquent drug-peddling Zeke). Marybeth starts by infecting Coach Willis, who then proceeds to attack and infect Principal Harris before moving on to the entire faculty, killing an old teacher whose body couldn't handle the strain. Marybeth acts as a Shipper on Deck for Stokely (who's pretending to be lesbian to be left alone) and Stan, is nice to Casey after he's been bullied, and hooks up with Zeke.

As the teenagers start noticing the bizarre things happenings around the school, they all meet up in private to discuss it when they're confronted by one of the alien-possessed teachers, whom they accidentally kill with one of Zeke's drug-filled pens (actually just ground-up caffeine pills). It dehydrates the aliens, who require moist environments to survive. Zeke takes them all back to his place, where they study one of the alien parasites on his lab rat and use the drug to prove they're still human. Marybeth initially refuses, claiming she's allergic to caffeine, but appears to take it anyway. In fact, she blocks her nasal passages with an alien membrane while exposing Delilah as The Mole, who escapes to warn the others.

Casey realizes they must find and kill the Queen to stop the aliens, which they assume to be the principal. They lure her into the school gym, where Marybeth herself douses her with most of the caffeine, melting her completely. When they realize this didn't work, they start becoming infected one by one, until only Casey and Zeke are left. Marybeth promises both of them that they can be happy as a part of her hive:

Casey, come out, come out, wherever you are. You know, in my world, Casey, there were limitless oceans as far as the eye could see. A beautiful home until it started to dry up. So I escaped, came here and met you. All of you. All of you were different from the others. You were lost and lonely, just like me. And I thought that maybe I could give you a taste of my world: a world without anger, without fear, without attitude. Where the underachiever goes home at night to parents who care. The jock can be smart, the ugly duckling beautiful, and the class wuss doesn't have to live in terror. And the new girl? Well, she can just fit right in with people who are just like her. You see, Casey, even Marybeth's feelings can be hurt... by a bunch of pathetic, lost, little outcasts... who truly believe that their disaffected lonely life... is the only way they can survive. I can make you a part of something so special, Casey, so perfect, so fearless. Don't you want that, Casey?

After Zeke gets knocked out, it's up to Casey to stop her, who lures her into a trap by running from a One-Winged Angel Marybeth behind the gym benches and activating their fold-in mechanism so that she will be crushed and he can inject her with the drug. It kills her in the nick of time before Casey himself can be infected, and the school returns to normal.

How do her actions and personality show her to be a Magnificent Bitch?

Marybeth is the leader of an Alien Invasion, a Humanoid Abomination who is in truth a hulking alien monstrosity, but she genuinely seems to be believe in the utopian dream she presents to her victims. She simply thinks that mindless conformity would be better for humans than having to deal with real emotions and tough choices. After all, her entire species operates on Hive Mind principles. It's somewhat implied that this will create a World of Silence, but when her minions participate in and attend a football match... there's basically no difference. Everybody's happy.

Still, she's also shown to be genuinely Affably Evil and not simply as part of an elaborate act (the type of cruel mockery of pleasantries expressed by Faux Affably Evil types), helping the teenagers several times for no reason and even trying to soothe their fears when she exposes herself. She's incredibly intelligent, her plan resulting in the assimilation of pretty much the entire school and already expanding into the town (several cops are seen setting up roadblocks), rendering the teenagers' drug test ineffective without them noticing, wilfully wasting most of the drugs on a decoy (killing her own kind in the process), and appearing innocent enough for literally nobody to suspect her until she decides to.

Mitigating factors?

I really couldn't find any. She does get beaten in the end, but it's a Near-Villain Victory.

Conclusion?

Yes the Hivequeen Marybeth.

Edited by Morgenthaler on Nov 2nd 2020 at 8:10:32 AM

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#30017: Nov 2nd 2020 at 7:22:33 AM

[tup] Marybeth.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#30018: Nov 2nd 2020 at 7:23:39 AM

[tup] to Hive Queen Marybeth

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#30019: Nov 2nd 2020 at 7:24:03 AM

[tup]Hive Queen.

What a weird sounding film ..

Edited by miraculous on Nov 2nd 2020 at 7:24:19 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30020: Nov 2nd 2020 at 7:24:38 AM

Yes there Morgen... also just to nail in the coffin:

Alright, you've grabbed my horns so we're doing this. Others have weighed in but I'm going to refresh because this is a thorough misunderstanding of criteria I don't want being spread on the thread:

  • Father is "very much an example" is not an argument. Others have already countered he dies pathetically begging for his life and Arakawa was quite clear about him getting taken out as a function of toying with powers he didn't understand as well as he thought he did amongst other issues.
  • Roy Mustang is far too heroic post-Ishval, for which he feels immense guilt, so all of his plotting is coming after the "bastard" phase, which he was forced into anyways.
  • Lust has one sentence about her impressive fight against Roy, you're ignoring the rest of it which refers to her manipulations and plotting. She keeps, her entry is fine. The other versions of her are substantially altered, with the film version pulling inspiration from both and altering her role thanks to differences in the plot. I... don't really see the case for combining, she's a different character in each version.
  • How does Kimblee—Solf is an odd way to refer to him if you're just going to pick one name—fail the "magnificent" part? Did you read my entry for him? I detailed his detective work, gambits and ploys he does while working under Father. I'm genuinely uncertain if you actually read the entries you're criticizing or just want to volley insults.
  • Isaac's battle tactics—which you're majorly underselling—manage to throw all of Central into upheaval as a one man army and his plays to lure out Bradley even have Father watching with anticipation.
  • Scar is able to play events to see what he wants done... that's what being The Chessmaster is. This is mostly just running down the entry without much suggestion on your part, so I'm unsure what else to say.
  • Clara is stealing shit for her own profit. There isn't a rule saying you need a bodycount to be an MB.

Overall, your points have issues to the one, your tone is smug and dismissive and you're barging in here like we're all lost kids needing you to elucidate us. If you have a response, great, lose the fucking tone and we can talk.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#30021: Nov 2nd 2020 at 7:26:29 AM

Easy yes to Marybeth as discussed

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#30022: Nov 2nd 2020 at 7:28:04 AM

EDIT: wait this isn't the CM thread

Edited by Libraryseraph on Nov 2nd 2020 at 10:28:23 AM

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#30024: Nov 2nd 2020 at 7:30:55 AM

Expect to get them mixed up a lot Emma [lol]

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019

Total posts: 82,595
Top