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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

YamiVizzini Since: Jan, 2001
#2901: Jul 24th 2018 at 10:46:53 PM

[tup]Both Varricks, Raoh and Vandal #3

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#2902: Jul 24th 2018 at 10:47:58 PM

[tup] to Savage, Raoh and Konoe. and Varrick

[tdown]Lennart

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
YamiVizzini Since: Jan, 2001
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#2904: Jul 24th 2018 at 10:58:31 PM

With that cleared up, easy keep there.

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#2905: Jul 24th 2018 at 11:38:37 PM

[tup]Van3, Savage, Raoh, Konoe, and both Varricks.

Quick question, would being Made of Evil be disqualifying for this trope?

[down]Just curious.

Edited by MasterJoseph on Jul 24th 2018 at 11:56:23 AM

IPP Wick Check created.
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#2906: Jul 24th 2018 at 11:48:18 PM

[up] I dont think we disqualify Glaurung and Asmodeus despite agency issues... You got any examples?

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#2907: Jul 25th 2018 at 12:38:02 AM

We've also got Ganondorf, so go nuts.

Here's Kikyo!

  • Bravely Default: Konoe Kikyo is a quirky, shy, and utterly relentless assassin in the employ of the Black Blades of Eternia who aims to take out the leaders of the Shieldbearers. Disposing of and disguising herself as the Goodman family housekeeper Nastassja, Kikyo forges invitations to a banquet in Agnès Oblige's name and sends them to Commander Daniel Goodman and Officers Steiner and Neuer. Once they're all gathered, Kikyo locks them inside the house, feigns her own death to prevent suspicion, discretely murders both Steiner and Neuer while pinning the blame on Daniel's wife Eleanor, and nearly manages to take out Daniel as well when he separates himself from the party, only stopped at the last second by Agnès' crew. Despite this merciless cunning, Kikyo is shown to be rather friendly when off-duty, values her fellow Eternians as friends, and ultimately turns a new leaf come Bravely Second.

You're probably wondering why I'm suddenly referring to her as Kikyo instead of Konoe. Well I looked up cutscenes for the heck of it and sure enough that's what she was primarily called. Oops.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#2908: Jul 25th 2018 at 1:17:24 AM

[tup] Varrick

Made of Evil isn't a disqualification for Magnificent Bastard unless being evil means you have to be Stupid Evil.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#2909: Jul 25th 2018 at 1:23:56 AM

Oh, and looking back, no to Eggman. It's a similar case to Bowser in that he has moments of brilliance like his entire con in Lost World and could probably keep in individual games, but franchise-wise? Too dependent on the writer and he's portrayed as an ineffectual buffoon far too much for me to be comfortable saying yes. Though in Sonic? I think there's a strong case to be made for Mammoth Mogul for the Archie comic, if I remember correctly... hell, maybe even Finitevus as a CM/MB overlap.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#2910: Jul 25th 2018 at 1:54:30 AM

Yeah I think them counting in individual games for both would be fine, heck I think Eggman could probably make it in just Sonic Forces personally. Too inconsistent like Comic Mysterio to count overall though.

Edited by miraculous on Jul 25th 2018 at 1:55:52 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#2912: Jul 25th 2018 at 5:59:00 AM

[tup] Savage, Konoe, Raoh, and Varrick.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#2913: Jul 25th 2018 at 6:08:44 AM

[tup] Vandar Arg

[tup] Konoe Kikyo

[tup] Raoh

Watch me destroying my country
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#2914: Jul 25th 2018 at 7:10:25 AM

Agency is no bar as long as the character is question still carries out whatever their inherent programming is with style, charm and intelligence. Actually, I think not having agency is what saves Glaurung from being too nasty to count because he's fucking bad but can't be anything but.

@ Doc, Lol, yeah that happens, it took until I rewatched Zeta to recall my kept character went by his last and not first name too.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#2915: Jul 25th 2018 at 7:26:04 AM

[up]Hey for fire emblem would you be cool with having the entries arranged in tge same format that there done in Monster.Fire Emblem as I think it looks like pretty good for that franchise.

Edited by miraculous on Jul 25th 2018 at 7:29:49 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#2916: Jul 25th 2018 at 7:39:23 AM

[tup]Savage, Konoe, Raoh, and Varrick.

@Eggman: So, it sounds like I'm better off doing an EP for him for individual games instead of franchise-wide. Or is that a bust?

Mogul is also on my list.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#2917: Jul 25th 2018 at 7:42:17 AM

[up]Oh go ahead with the individual ep's per game as he'll count in a few.

You can start with Sonic Force's as thats where he's at his best.

Edited by miraculous on Jul 25th 2018 at 7:46:06 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#2918: Jul 25th 2018 at 8:18:39 AM

Okee-Dokee...Here's Varrick's belated writeup. No! I'm not referring to that Varrick if you know what I meant tongue

Charley Varrick: Former Crop-Duster turned into bank robber, Charley Varrick, instigates a robbery in a small bank of Tres Cruces by disguising as a handicapped old man. When his wife dies from the bullet wounds, he and his friend, Harman, prepare to blow up the stolen car. After Varrick found out that the money that they stole were from mafia, he suggest Harman that they won’t spending money until three or four years in which Harman declined. Realizing that Harman’s stubborness will doom them both, Varrick then tries to double-cross him swapping the X-Ray of Harman’s teeth for his and forges a passport in order to distract the hitman that was sent by the bank president and also teach Harman a lesson. Trying to outwitting both of the bank president and the hitman, Varrick then made a promise to said bank president to return the stolen money. When he discovered the hitman’s car, Varrick then pretends to be friendly towards the bank president which resulted the hitman falsely assuming that the bank president was one of Varrick’s associate. When the hitman tries to retreive the money, Varrick then directs him to the trunk of an abandoned car which was rigged by dynamite. After both of the president and the hitman died, Varrick then throws a wad of hundred-dollar bills toward the burning car and then gets away with everything in the end.

I'll add this to the drafts. And you know the drill as always @43110 :D

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#2919: Jul 25th 2018 at 11:10:03 AM

Now...my final, for right now, Gundam post. This is Gundam Wing, its own continuity entirely. We have earth, which is oppressing the colonies in space....now, the Colonies? Secretly have a group of brilliant scientists create the Gundams. Five state of the art, incredible Mobile Suits....and entrust five young pilots to carry out secret terrorist missions against the Earth forces, and their secret masters, the Romefeller Foundation....now, there's an elite military unit that assists the Earth...the 'Specials', better known as OZ. and the leader of OZ is the young, charismatic, bold pilot...Treize Khushrenada.

Who is Treize?

Treize is the handsome young leader of OZ. A brilliant pilot and military mind who is known as a genius in all senses, Treize starts the series soon learning of the Gundams, but decides to conceal them from his superiors because it prevents a fascinating new challenge for him. Treize was born as a nephew of the famed Dermail family, one of the top families of the Romefeller foundation. As the head of OZ, Treize also recruited OZ's top ace, Zechs Marquise, knowing Zechs is secretly Milliardo Peacecraft, the son of the noble Peacecraft Kingdom wiped out by the Earth governments.

Treize quickly has obstacles in his way assassinated, having the Earth Alliance's top ministers and generals dealt with him a coup that places OZ and himself at the top. Setting about his plans, Treize tricks the main hero, Heero Yuyu into killing the top leader of the earth alliance, Heero unaware he was seeking peace with the Colonies. Treize proceeds to solidify his control of OZ and the earth. At this point, Zechs breaks from Treize, and becomes independent, as Treize has a major falling out with OZ over their creation of the pilot-less Mobile Dolls...Treize has a strong belief in chivalry and warfare being fought by humans, and taking the human element away from warfare will reduce it to a game, and humans can never forget the cost of war. Secretly, Treize has two incredibly strong Gundams designed for Heero and Zechs, intending on them bringing down the ambition of the colonies. Treize sets up events and lets them proceed, resulting in new factions cropping up...with Zechs leading the OZ breakaways, the White Fang, intending on dropping a colony onto earth to assure the Colonies' supremacy...and who takes over the earth alliance to lead it? None other than Treize himself. It turns out that Treize is strongly implied to be plotting with Zechs...intending on delivering a final, catastrophic war to force humanity into a lasting, endless peace without Mobile Suits as weapons. The plan works. Realizing that the world of peace he wishes to create won't have a place for him? Treize duels his rival, the Gundam pilot Wufei and allows Wufei to deal his mobile suit a fatal blow, calling Wufei his true friend, as a shocked Wufei watches Treize's ship explode...the colony drop, as planned, is stopped by Heero and Zechs vanishes...and after the film Endless Waltz with the final Big Bad defeated, as Treize had planned....the world achieves peace and Mobile Suits, including the Gundams? Are never seen again.

Is he charming? Charismatic? A good planner?

The entirety of Gundam Wind is a grand chessboard with Treize playing both sides. Almost everything that happens in the series is at his manipulation or organization. He's capable of mixing it up and never, ever loses his cool. Treize is pleasant, charismatic, charming and one of the best examples of An Officer And A Gentleman is the entirety of the Gundam franchise. NOTHING seems to phase him and one great moment? When he first meets Wufei, Wufei blows out his wall, leaps out of his mech with a sword, and Treize simply brandishes his own...before curbstomping him without ever losing his cool and letting him go. Even when he's in a mech about to explode, Treize's reaction is to impart a few final words and to smile peacefully. He's always planning every side and he looks damn cool doing so.

Is he a bastard? Too much?

Treize has a lot of people killed and assassinated. He orders people's deaths without batting an eye. He tricks Heero into murdering a good man and he plans a gigantic war with many soldiers dying. However? Treize is totally genuine about his ideals and beliefs. He doesn't want Mobile Dolls on the battlefield because he feels to remove a human factor from war reduces it to a pointless game. He's all about fair chances and honor as well. And besides this, he genuinely likes the Gundam pilots, especially Wufei. He truly cares for Zechs as his best friend. His subordinate, Lady Une? He also truly loves her as much as she loves him, and he comes to this realization when she's shot and falls into a coma, staying by her bedside and reflecting on his true feelings for her. He also loved a woman in the past who may or may not have given him a daughter named Marimeia.

Also, there's a great moment when Wufei furiously rebukes Treize's high minded ideals about the Mobile Dolls, demanding to know if Treize knows how many people have died for his sake. Treize's response? Is to quote the exact figure and to state he can list every single name of every single one.

Conclusion?

Easy yes, IMO.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#2920: Jul 25th 2018 at 11:17:52 AM

[tup] Treize. Someone that I know might have concerns with calling him a Villain Sue, but IMO, he seems to be genuinely charismatic and smart enough to avoid Villain Sueness despite some help for the plot.

Watch me destroying my country
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#2921: Jul 25th 2018 at 11:30:03 AM

[tup]Treize

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#2922: Jul 25th 2018 at 11:58:12 AM

Yes to Treize, the plot can zigzag in his favour but overall he’s got the credentials.

Edited by 43110 on Jul 25th 2018 at 7:33:09 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#2923: Jul 25th 2018 at 12:36:58 PM

Found this on Before Crisis

  • Magnificent Bastard: Rufus. He's the one controlling AVALANCHE for most of the game in order to discredit his father and make Shinra look bad, and many of AVALANCHE's attacks, such as sabotaging the rocket into space, are done to further that goal. Why? So he can take over Shinra. And he's a Karma Houdini to boot, since the President can't admit that the Vice-President and his own son was scheming with his enemies right under his nose.

You know I actually think Rufus might be worth an ep.

[down]Ooh looking forward to it than.

Edited by miraculous on Jul 25th 2018 at 12:41:16 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#2924: Jul 25th 2018 at 12:38:46 PM

[tup] Treize.

[up] I was gonna EP Rufus soon alongside some other FF candidates.

Edited by erazor0707 on Jul 25th 2018 at 12:38:27 PM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities

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