During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Everybody I missed except Eggman, who I'll need to think about a bit more.
Here's another Final Fantasy character for the road.
What's the work?
Bravely Default is a pseudo-sequel to Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light, a throwback to the first six FF games as a whole, and my absolute favorite game ever.
In the world of Luxendarc, there are four elemental crystals that control the flow of power in the world, all worshiped throughout Luxendarc by the Crystal Orthodoxy. However, the crystals have been consumed by darkness, and their power is being sought by the Duchy of Eternia, leaving it up to four young heroes—Agnès, Tiz, Ringabel, and Edea, as well as fairy companion Airy—to travel the world and save the day!
Sounds simple, eh? Well it's way darker than what I made it out to be. Throughout their adventure, the Warriors of Light confront the various Jobmasters of Eternia, and for the first three chapters they showcase themselves to be total psychos. They range from violent, to insane, to violently insane, or just plain stupid. At least one of them is a straight-up rapist, and overall they're just an unsympathetic bunch... Until you meet the Black Blades, the Eternian military division based in the land of Eisenberg, and despite backing a civil war within the region (the Shieldbearers vs the Swordbearers), they turn out to be pretty likable. Except Qada. He's a dick.
After our heroes defeat the Black Blade officers, they visit Commander Daniel Goodman at his quarters in Eisenberg, who suddenly thanks Agnès for offering to host a banquet in his honor and even inviting two of his officers Steiner and Neuer, albeit he is confused that she even knows who they are considering he never introduced her to them. Agnès immediately corrects him, saying she never sent any invitations for such an affair. Regardless, both parties decide to forget about it and just enjoy the feast.
Right as dinner is about to start, however, Daniel's wife Eleanor suddenly appears, having found a letter saying: "Daniel Goodman, Shieldbearer Commander, shall die this night."
Turns out, there's one last Black Blade running around.
Who is Konoe Kikyo?
Konoe is the Ninja Jobmaster, the leader of the Black Blades' covert ops, and the main villain of Eisenberg's final sidequest. She's a quirky assassin who doesn't say much unless she happens to be wearing one of her disguises, in which case she becomes a Motor Mouth - this is largely due to shyness caused by being bullied for her slow speech in the past. As the sidequest begins, Konoe disguises herself as the Goodmans handmaid Nastassja, and takes her place after dumping her body in a pool of lava. Right as Daniel receives the letter, "Nastassja" had the front door locked and fakes her own assassination, to the point of hiding her breathing and pulse, and drives the rest of the household into a panic. Agnès and co. try to keep the peace as Steiner and Neuer fling accusations at Eleanor (she was the only one with Nastassja at the time) and each other (because their relations soured). The party proceeds to try and investigate the crime.
After the party interrogates the other four, Konoe further pins the crime on Eleanor by sneaking poison into the tea she had poured for everyone, claiming the life of Steiner and forcing the rest of the house to lock her in the basement. Then, as the party investigates the front door, Konoe shuts off the lights and kills Neuer, who with her dying breath declares that her killer was a woman. When the party chooses to once more interrogate Eleanor, Konoe takes advantage of Daniel staying behind to pounce on him, and would have killed her target were it not for the intervention of Tiz. When confronted, Konoe reveals that she was the one who killed the Fire Crystal's vestal years ago, and turns her attention to Agnès and friends. After a boss fight against her, Konoe reflects on her mission, citing her pleasure that she managed to at least kill two major officers of the Shieldbearers, how her plan was ruined by the unexpected appearance of Agnès, and admits her regret over killing the fire vestal before dying herself (except not really - Konoe returns in Bravely Second in a minor role, and has turned a new leaf as a private investigator.).
At the halfway point of the game, the game goes through a "Groundhog Day" Loop, forcing the party to go through every major area again, and allowing them to do the sidequests again with simplified results. They feature Lighter and Softer, alternate versions of the Jobmasters, and Konoe is no exception. When she does the plan during the loops, instead of tossing Nastassja into lava, she just ties her up in the basement. During the times where she isn't enacting this plan, she just hangs out with the other Jobmasters.
Is she Magnificent?
Konoe is a master of disguise and her plan is frankly brilliant; even after Agnès throws a wrench into the works by showing up, she still manages to kill two of her three targets and nearly claims her third. At no point does she ever really make a mistake. The only reason the party even reached Daniel in time was because Ringabel saw through the ruse at the last second. In one of the loops, the party theorizes that she was spreading false information about the officers beforehand to turn them against each other. Sending a letter that declares that Daniel will die is also really ballsy and stylish. Plus, how can you beat the novelty of having a "The Butler Did It" plot where it's a genuine, clever surprise?
The only way to stop the plan is to know about it in advance, either in-universe (during the "Groundhog Day" Loop) or out - if Ringabel inspects Nastassja's corpse enough times, Konoe is forced to reveal herself and will be impressed that the party saw through her plot.
She's not really doing any scheming aside from this sidequest (the alternate versions of the Jobmasters are much less villainous overall, save Qada and DeRosa) and her appearances in two of the loops are instead dedicated to showing her interactions with other Jobmasters. That said, it isn't so much "she became dumber" as it is that she just isn't on the job at the time.
Bravely Second features one instance of somebody getting the better of her (Whitman knocks her out and disguises himself as her to fight the party), but she had no reason to see it coming, so she gets a pass.
Is she a Bastard?
She's a member of Eternia's army, so no shock here. She kills people and happens to be among the people fanning the flames of civil war in Eisenberg. Right before her boss fight, while she feels bad over her death, she's also willing to boast about assassinating the fire vestal to make herself seem more threatening.
Is she Charming?
Easily. She clearly values the comradery of her fellow Eternian Jobmasters, particularly her boss Kamiizumi, and is even willing to talk undisguised when they give her proper encouragement. She feels guilt over the death of the fire vestal on her (not) deathbed and is overall friendly when not on the job. Her quirks are endearing without ever being used as an object of embarrassment for her. Alternate!Konoe has reservations about killing Nastassja for real. And, of course, Prime!Konoe reforms and becomes a good guy in Bravely Second.
Verdict?
Seems like a fair one to me. You decide.
I'm only on chapter three right now, so I might not have anybody ready by the discussion date. Anybody who wants it can take it if I can't get there first.
Edited by DocSharp on Jul 24th 2018 at 5:14:42 AM
to Doom!Vandal Savage. Personally, I find his inclusion to the Complete Monster category to be merely technicalities. Owlman is far worse in terms of personality and I can easily see DCAU Vandal Savage try to attempt this scenario. It helps that he sees himself as the good guy making mankind great again.
One more for tonight as well...
What's the Work?
Fist of the North Star is an influential shonen series about...Kenshiro, a martial artists and heir of the Hokuto Shinken style, who wanders the post-nuclear war blasted wasteland, saving people, killing bad guys and looking to rescue his lost love Yuria from his former friend and rival Shin...now, Hokuto Shinken can only have one successor but Kenshiro was raised with three other men, and learns they all still live, with their memories and skills intact. And one of them is a man who would seize control of the world itself. One of the strongest warlords in the world: Ken-oh, the King of the Fist. Kenshiro's elder brother...Raoh.
Who is Raoh?
Raoh was a boy from the land of Shura. As a youth, he and his biological brother Toki were at the bottom of a cliff when they were found by the master of Hokuto Shinken, Ryuken, who offered to train Raoh if he climbed up. Instead? Raoh climbed up, bearing Toki on his back and demanded Ryuken adopt both of them.
Raoh fought hard to be the best, driven by his insatiable drive to be the strongest. Ryuken, however, began to fear Raoh and selected Kenshiro as the successor over him. But Raoh? Refused to submit to Ryuken's judgement and surrender his abilities. In the ensuing fight, Ryuken seemed ready to prevail...only to be struck by a heart attack at the worst time. Raoh killed him and left the temple, taking the name 'Ken-Oh.' And he raised an army to conquer the Wasteland, as well as establishing the great prison Cassandra in which to imprison Martial Artists who proved troublesome.
It turns out? Raoh is agenius tactician and strategist, conquering a GREAT deal of territory, defeating martial artist after martial artist and sending them to Cassandra, as he takes their secret scrolls to perfect the ultimate fighting style of his own. We hear a great deal of Ken-Oh through the early parts of the series as Kenshiro and team get closer. Raoh ends up facing Team Kenshiro on a raid and ends up mortally wounding Kenshiro's comrade and best friend Rei, taking both toki and Kenshiro on which seemingly breaks his power. Defeated, Raph simply gathers his power, tracking down and facing Ryuken's former brother as well to best him and show he's still got the edge. Raoh then returns and takes over his old territory, killing those who have been terrorizing the civilinans in his absence, before allowing Kenshiro to take on one of his top rivals, knowing he wins either way. Raoh also faces Toki a final time, with Toki being too weak, sick and dying, to defeat Raoh. Raoh, crying for his brother, defeats Toki and lets him live, telling him spend his final days in peace.
Going on an all out assault, Raoh tears through the forces of one of the last threats to him, the final Nanto Seiken general who turns out to be Kenshiro's long lost love yuria. Once again, to prove himself, Raoh forces a retired warrior to fight him and commands his army: if Raoh takes even one step backwards, they are to shoot all their arrows into Raoh's own back. Raoh does end up taking one step back when the warrior, Fudoh, ends up far more intimidating than he tohught...and his men shoot FUDO instead. Raoh, to Raoh's horror and rage. Now, Raoh ends up capturing Yuria and dealing a decisive blow to Nanto, but learns of the ultimate technique Kenshiro possesses that he doesn't....realizing it requires the ultimate sorrow, Raoh prepares to kill Yuria, whom he is also in love with....returning to face Kenshiro as an equal. In an ultimate, titanic battle, warrior to warrior, Kenshiro deals a final, fatal blow. Raoh accepts his loss with dignity, tearfully embracing Kenshiro as his brother...and reveals he didn't kill Yuria, but extended her life as much as he could (Yuria is dying slowly of radiation poisoning)). Raoh then channels his ki into a final blow, declaring that his life "was one lived without any regret!" and channels it into the sky, eliminating the radioactive clouds overhead and bringing the world back to the beauty it had before...dying standing on his own two feet at the end.
How is Raoh a magnificent bastard?
Now, Raoh's a good planner and battle tactician...but above all, what qualifies him is his dignity and core of steel. Raoh is charismatic as hell, inspiring loyalty from many of his soldiers. He's one of the men worthy of being a king as the series says and possessed of an incredible soul and indomitable will that will never, ever submit. Raoh takes setbacks, but he always gets back up, the persistence of which is staggering. No matter what happens, Raoh will return until he's dead and he even dies standing. This level of sheer doggedness, and the utterly brutal charisma he gives makes Raoh one of the most popular characters to the extent a funeral was really held for him after his death in the real world as a publicity stunt.
Is he a bastard? Too much?'
He...kills tons of people, often for reasons that really only make sense to him, hunting down and killing likable characters to test himself. He's a conqeuror and makes no apologies for it. Raoh is a dangerous man, and he has people thrown in the horrific Cassandra if they oppose him with martial arts. He is a bad, bad, bad man.
But despite this? Raoh is nowhere near as revolting as other characters in the series like Amiba, a mad scientist who experiments on innocent people horrifically, or Jagi, the black sheep of the Hokuto brothers who's a bandit, a slaver and a rapist. Raoh explicitly kills any of his men who engage in rape, and he love sand protects his citizens like a father. He loves Toki and Kenshiro deeply, even sparing Toki and crying for his brother's ske when Toki lacks the strength to stop him anymore. He loves Yuria and refuses to kill her at the end, awakening his technique by his sorrow at her conviction, and he accepts his defeat with utter dignity. Also, when Raoh ordered his men to shoot him if he took a step back? He fucking MEANT it. Raoh's honor is sacred to him and he kills the men who shot Fudo, roaring at them that they were supposed to shoot him, because taking a step back means he lost, and he gave orders.
conclusion?
I'd give Raoh a solid yes for sheer, dogged iron will.
to Savage, Raoh and Konoe. Wow when you mentioned Bravely Default I fear Airy the Fairy might show up!
Now then I have another EP here, but this one is going to be a bit different from my previous ones in that it show how the minor details might prevent someone from qualifying. From one of my favorite cartoons of all time South Park.
What’s the Work?
As you all may know South Park is the adult animated Black Comedy revolving around the misadventures of four boys, Stan Marsh the Everyday Man with a cynical streak, Kyle Browflowski the uptight Jewish boy with high morals, Eric Cartman the fat Jerkass everyone hates, and Kenny Mc Cormick the Poor Kid who gets killed every so often.
Now we’ll be taking a look at Season 20 its most a story based season, where one of those plot lines is about Gerald, Kyle's father, becoming an infamous internet troll known as skankhunt42. His large amount of trolling eventually leads to a Danish athlete, Freja Ollegard one of Gerald's primary targets, committing suicide after no longer handling all the trolling caused by Gerald and the people who took his lead, much to Gerald's horror. This leads to the creation of Troll Trace.com created by… Lennart Bedrager!
Who is he? What does he do?
Lennart Bedrager is the CEO of Troll Trace.com who vowed to find and destroy the troll who caused Freja Ollegard's suicide alongside multiple people of Denmark who moured Ollegard. He creates Troll Trace.com a website capable of showing the internet history of anybody, what they did, their messages, where they used the internet, their adresses, what accounts on social media they have, stuff like that. After the website mannages to get online, Lennart Bedrager has it tested out on Fort Collins to identify a single internet troll known as MLKKK. This results in everyones internet history to be exposed with his website, including those who aren't trolls. Fort Collins is then led to mass chaos and hysteria, with multiple suicides, murders, and all of Fort Collins eventually being on lock down.
In an attempt to prevent what happened to Fort Collins happenning to the rest of the world, Hillary Clinton makes a deal with Lennart Bedrager that she'll trick all the trolls involved in Ollegar's suicide to come to Denmark in exchange for Troll Trace not being launched world wide. Bedrager lies that he agrees, telling all the trolls who were tricked into coming to Denmark that he plans on using the trolls, along with Troll Trace to make the entire world to go into chaos panic and war and that from the ashes, a new and happy world will arrive. This puts the entire nation of Denmark at risk of being nuked by America, something that Bedrager is fully aware of and intends to leave Denmark so that he won't be harmed.
Now he invites Gerald to have dinner with him, where he tells him how he’s was able to become the leader of Denmark, even though he’s not actually Dannish. He then reveals that the entire thing was set up so Lennart can create World War III. Why, because its freaking hilarious!
Lennart then leaves the country of Denmark so he can watch the fruition of plans from afar. However, Kyle, Denmark and the intenret trolls hatches a plan to overload the system of Troll Trace.com, through mass trolling, rerouting the internet to Space "X", and turning off the breakers of Troll Trace.com. Gerald starts turning off the breakers but if confronted by Lennart who holds him at gun point. After arguing over the differences between how they troll, Gerald throws him off a bridge to his death before turrning off the breaker causing troll trace to overload and the entire internet to be destroyed and start all over again.
Is he Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
Now for intelligence Lennart definitely has that. He created Troll Trace.com, knowing full well that everyone will try and look at everyone internet history, testing that out on Fort Collins and has made several deals to several politicians only to go back on them, with the politician being none the wiser. He’s also willing to incorporate outside factors, like Heidi Turner’s emoji analysis, using them to better his own plan, and it all works like a charm.
For charisma, Lennart manages to convince all of DENMARK to make him his leader and trust Troll Trace.com, and he's not even danish. That’s pretty charismatic! That’s said with the reveal that he’s an American he also reveals himself to be a troll with his personality similar to Gerald, an immature man who does everything because its funny, might have made him uncharismatic to the audience.
What’s the competition like?
Lennart might arguably the smartest villain in the show! While Eric Cartman has his moments of brilliance he’s usually portrayed as a fat ignorant bigot, and Gerald is nowhere NEAR this tropes being a sexist cowardly troll and the biggest Smug Snake ever! There’s also the Memberberries who managed to succeed in their plan where Lennart failed, but they are very homophobic and racist and won mostly because of outside influences such as Trump winning the election.
Lennart is neither of those, though I do have to comment that Gerald managed to get Lennart to listen to him leading to his defeat, Lennart would have still lost, if he just let Gerald turn off the breakers. So Lennart is cautious enough to go back and risk his own life to stop Gerald, but his defeat afterwards is still an important issue.
Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
Let get this cleared out, Lennart doesn’t seem like a Politically Incorrect Villain like the Memberberries, nor a Smug Snake like Gerald, or both like Eric Cartman. That said his plans involves sending the world into WWIII, causing millions if not billions of deaths, all for a cheap laugh, which like his final confrontation with Gerald, is a very important issue.
Conclusion
Lennart could have qualified, but those issues that I pointed out, might also kill his magnificence. However as I said before this isn’t like my other EPs. I mainly did this EP for show how minor but very important factors can prevent someone from qualifying.
That said I still want to see your opinions on Lennart
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 24th 2018 at 5:10:22 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffNo to Lennart. I gave you the Cadillac Bandit because silly as the show is he ultimately makes the Gentleman Thief archetype, this is just... no.
Oh don't get the wrong idea about me, even I'm leaning towards
for Lennart as I mainly did this EP on Lennart, not to get him qualified, but to show how some factors can keep someone from counting.
This is like an Anti-EP that I thought it would be interesting in doing after seeing Kazuya's Anti-EP on Nylarthotep.
I’m still thinking if I should do an Anti-EP on Eric Cartman or is that not necessary?
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 24th 2018 at 6:19:41 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffI really don’t think he or Junko need them to be honest, it’s just going to be delving into reasons we all agree keep them out without actually giving anyone any new information. Not really sure why Nyarly got one either but I haven’t followed the YMMV page so I’ll go in good faith there was some kind of issue there.
Definitely, like, we could go and do one for the Major since he's got a lot of the components of an MB but everyone gets he's way too sadistic and insane to belong, so there's been no dragging discussion concerning him and I've never seen any issue with him being randomly re-added after initial removal, so I don't see the point.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 24th 2018 at 11:58:52 AM
No to the South Park guy.
If I may offer something? Only EP characters you know for sure might count (like the many that have been upvoted) or someone borderline that could either way (like Eggman so far). Out and out anti-E Ps aren't really necessary unless they're a definitive end to an ongoing discussion.
Just my two cent. Not trying to shoot down anyone.
Edited by erazor0707 on Jul 24th 2018 at 8:18:52 AM
Have another EP
What's the work?
The work is The Legend of Korra, a sequel to Avatar: The Last Airbender, which depict a world of Fantasy Counterpart Cultures where the four basic elements can be "bent", or wielded, by select humans.
Who is the character?
The character is Varrick, a member of the Southern Water Tribe and founder and CEO of Varrick Global Industries, a global industrial company with a focus in shipping. Varrick acts as a supporting character in Seasons 3 and 4; this entry focuses on Season 2, where he is a secondary antagonist.
What does he do?
At the start of Season 2, Asami Sato's industrial company, Future Industries, is facing hard times, so she forms a partnership with Varrick and his company to ease her finances. Meanwhile tensions begin to brew between the Southern and Northern branches of the Water Tribe; the chieftan of the Northerners and overall leader of the Water Tribe, Unalaq, has come to the Southern tribe with the Northern army and is imposing his own ideas of law on the tribe. Several Southerners, including Varrick, advocate rebellion. When Unalaq takes action against the conspirators, Varrick hides and slips bribe money to the heroes to buy the freedom of his cohorts (due to the foolishness of one of them, Bolin, this failed). Varrick subsequently escapes with the heroes and returns to the United Republic of Nations, another nation separate from the Water Tribes.
Varrick sets up a meeting between Korra and President Raiko to convince him to get involved in the Water Tribe civil war, but he refuses. Varrick suggests a propaganda film to sway public opinion and convince Raiko to lend his help. Casting Bolin as the start of the movie, Varrick depicts a cartoon charicature of Unalaq as a villain out to destroy the world, and Bolin and Raiko as heroes standing against him. Varrick also suggests Korra directly ask the United Republic military commander for aid, but this is thwarted when Korra's boyfriend and police officer Mako informs the President of the plan.
During this time, there is an attack on the Southern Water Tribe cultural center in the city, and supporters of the Northern Tribe are suspected. Mako discovers that a criminal gang in the city used remote donated explosives in the attack, but cannot link the gang or the explosives to a source. Asami's shipments of goods have also been sabotaged by unknown parties. Mako and Asami hire another criminal gang to help find the perpetrators, but Mako overhears they have already been bribed to keep the two busy over the night. Mako and Asami find the Future Industries warehouse cleaned out; Asami's company is ruined.
While visiting Bolin on the movie sets, Mako sees a technician working on the pyrotechnicks, and realizes it is the same type of detonator used in the cultural center attack. Mako bursts into Asami's office to tell her he suspects Varrick is up to something, only to find her in meeting with Varrick, and Asami happily tells Mako that Varrick just bought a controlling share in Future Industries and saved the company. Mako's momentary outburst upon entry still tips Varrick off that he's been found out. Varrick meets with Mako and offers him a job on his security team due to the "attacks" on their shipments, and gives a "Shame If Something Happened" warning about Bolin and Asami. Mako declines the job and tries to warn Bolin of Varrick, but is rebuffed. On Varrick's orders, the arrested criminals behind the cultural center attack finger Mako as the one who hired them, and the police find a large sum of cash and explosive devices in Mako's apartment, planted by Varrick. Mako is arrested and charged with being the head conspirator.
The night Varrick's movie premieres with President Raiko in attendance, waterbenders masquerading as Northerners infiltrate the arena and attempt to kidnap him. By happenstance, Bolin leaves the arena for some air and finds their boat, leading him to discovering the kidnapping attempt and foiling it. The kidnappers confess that Varrick hired them and he is arrested. The group finds Varrick in a luxurious cell with his assistant, and he explains he knew he'd get caught sooner or later, so when he funded construction of the prison he made sure to have a special cell ready for his personal use. He gives the heroes usage of his battleship, which has the stolen Future Industries equipment on it, to travel to the Water Tribe.
During the final battle of the season between Korra and Unalaq, the wall of Varrick's cell is destroyed; utilizing a hangglider backpack, Varrick and his assistant glide to freedom.
Is he a bastard?
Varrick purposefully aggrevated tensions in a civil war and almost escalated it into a world war for the purposes of being a war profiteer. He entered into a partnership with a competitor's company only to undermine them and ruin her so he could buy her out. When someone gets wise he's not what he seems, he first tries to coerce them into submission, then frames them for one of the crimes he caused. However, Varrick isn't too much of a bastard. He never directly lays a hand on anyone, and war tensions aside, doesn't even indirectly get anyone seriously hurt. When the group brings up the attempted kidnapping of Raiko, Varrick even specifically denies intent to harm him, and given Raiko's role in his plans, Varrick is genuine in this claim.
Is he magnificent?
Yes. Varrick is eccentric, funny, and manipulative. He is introduced trying to levitate before a crowd of admirers, says he stands on his head when trying to come up with ideas because the increased bloodflow to the head helps him think, and is just generally weird. Except for Mako (who, really, is generally kinda dour anyway), everyone likes Varrick and considers him a friend. No one belives Mako when he tries to tell people that Varrick is a villain, because he's so friendly, strange, and has been a helpful friend to most of the other heroes. He's the result of The Chessmaster also being a Cloud Cuckoolander.
Is he a good schemer?
Very much so, yes. Varrick practices Obfuscating Stupidity; he is eccentric and friendly, but also very cunning and clever. He almost ignites a world war by manipulating parties against each other, and sets himself up to by the primary supplier of goods for the war effort. During the season Unalaq is the primary Big Bad and the instigator of the Water Tribe civil war, and Varrick has no connection to him whatsoever; everything he does is Xanatos Speed Chess as the situation unfolds and the war escalates.
He acts through criminal agents hired for singular tasks, and on at least one occasion hired them through a middleman that remained anonymous to the criminals, making Varrick untraceable. Even when Mako gets the scent that Varrick is behind everything, Varrick has the means to try and manipulate him into joining him, and then frames him for a crime and gets him locked up when Mako doesn't play. When he takes Korra to see Raiko, he says he knows Raiko personally because he was a major contributor to Raiko's election campaign, and admits he was also a major contributor to the campaign of the other candidate; Varrick quips he hedged his bets.
The only reason Varrick got caught was sheer dumb luck; Bolin happened to step out of the arena while the kidnapping attempt was being carried out, stumbled upon their boat and the security officers the attackers stowed away, and rushed to the scene to stop them. If Bolin had stayed in his seat, the kidnapping probably would have gone off without a hitch, Raiko certainly would have shifted his stance on the war since the kidnappers were disguised as Northerners, and Varrick's hand in things would never have been discovered. He even planned for the event of his getting caught with a custom prison cell, and then had an escape plan ready once the opportunity presented itself.
Conclusion
I'll let this dialogue exchange sum up Varrick.
- Varrick: Don't tell me you guys are still mad about everything that happened. I did some good things, too! Korra, who warned you about Unalaq? I did! Bolin, who got you into the movies? I did. Asami, who saved your company? I did. Mako, who got you thrown in jail!? I did! Oh yeah, guess that was a bad thing.
Asami: You stole everything from me and you tried to kidnap the president. Those are pretty bad, too.
Varrick: I wasn't going to hurt him. I just needed to start a war. Well, a bigger war.
Bolin: Well we're gonna end it. Where's all the stuff you stole from Asami?
Varrick: The Future Industries' stuff? It's on my battleship.
Korra: You have a battleship?
Varrick: Of course I do! I bought the first one they made!
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Jul 24th 2018 at 12:59:52 PM
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yeah you are gonna have ask Scraggle if it’s okay to take one of his reserved candidates
While Scraggs reserve that...I'm actually alright with it as someone E Pd Rustal Ellion even though it was on Lighty's list
That being said... I'm going to say aye on Varrick...And speaking of other Varrick, I will do his writeup later.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."

Have a few other CM crossovers upcoming, but one for right now...
What's the work?
Justice League: Doom is an animated film when the Justice League is split apart....based on the popular Tower of Babel story, when a villain gains access to Batman's secret plans for the Justice League....Batman's secret plans to counter the League namely...and puts them into action with a lethal twist. Now, who is the villain? In the comics? None other than Ra's al Ghul. But in the film? I give you...Vandal Savage.
'Who is Vandal Savage? Born Vandar Arg...older than humanity in truth, a caveman given intelligence and strength, plus immortality, by a strange meteor long ago, Vandal has survived through tens of thousands of years and has come to a conclusion: humanity needs his guidance and leadership and the League are stopping that....Vandal calls in six of the individual Leaguers' arch-nemeses, creating his very own Legion of Doom as he terms it. A refined, elegant man, Vandal offers each of them one hundred million dollars and sets the schemes in motion, having given them all a brand new lethal twist. Martian Manhunter? He has his twin brother Ma'le'fa'lak secret poison him and then light him on fire. Diana? Has her engage Cheetah and get slipped a sort of nerve agent where she sees everyone as Cheetah. Green Lantern? Trick him into seeing a woman die resembling his former lover and now enemy Star Sapphire so he loses the will to bear his ring. Superman? Tricks him into being shot by a kryptonite bullet. Batman? Has Bane dig up his parents' graves and ambush him.
And you know what? It all goes off. Without a hitch. The League is completely wrecked in a single night. The only reason it doesn't fall apart? Bane, with his desire to completely screw over Bruce, buries him alive, gloating that he wants to humiliate him as well as break him...Bruce is able to break out of the coffin and dig himself out, as Vandal reveals the next stage of his plan after toasting their victory...to send a missile into the sun and caused a burst of a solar flare on earth. Not to destroy the world. Just "a third. Half at most." to bring humanity to catastrophe...so they'll accept his leadership as he guides them into the future. The Legion decide to accept with the promise they'll be the lords under Vandal himself.
Batman manages to diffuse the traps and save the League with Cyborg, bringing them to fight against the Legion, defeating them, including Vandal. However, Vandal gets his missile launch off....and smirks that they have no way to 'break an immortal'...however, the League figures out how Vandal was planning on sparing his base and manages to avert the crisis, saving the earth while Vandal? Is given life in prison without possibility of parole.
What about his attitude makes him a magnificent bastard?
Vandal is...charisma defined. He pulls off the Man of Wealth and Taste look brilliantly. Everything he says is just bitingly awesome, even at his most evil. He's pleasant, courteous to the others and even when making it clear that they're going to accept his terms or face the consequences, he does it without raising his voice. He's never anything but pleasant there, and even manages to make an amazing line like "The next phase of my plan may be what you'd term....genocidal" pretty awesome. He also toasts their victory with golden goblets, calling "for the Legion of Doom!"
And he took Batman's plans, remodeled them and put them into lethal practice. In one night, Vandal nearly exterminates the Justice League. Even when he's beaten, Vandal just smirks and threatens them to do their worst. Oh, and at one point, he invites Cheetah to attack him to prove his immortality. Then she attacks him again, he just casually knocks her back with a casual swing of his fist, never losing his smile or his cool. Vandal is just damn cool here.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
I mean, he's a CM for good reason. However, like his YJ counterpart, Vandal combines coolness and charm with vision. He's not needlessly evil here. He truly thinks this is what humanity needs to happen to evolve...but he also thinks that, well...it needs to be under his rule, and the same thing happened in the past, where he guided his people to glory. He is willing to make the Legion his generals and warlords, and shows no sign of lying to or betraying them. Also, he lacks any of the comic Vandal's more revolting crimes. No cannibalism, trying to have Dr. Psycho rape his lesbian daughter to get an heir or anything like that from Vandal here.
Conclusion?
Bad, bad, bad guy. Great villain and I think he hits magnificence.