During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Continuity's pretty wild for the James Bond films; the Daniel Craig films are definitely one continuity, the George Lazenby and Roger Moore films reference one another (one name: Tracy Draco), and it seriously depends with the Sean Connery films. And the Timothy Dalton and Pierce Brosnan films...
Edited by k410ren on Oct 6th 2020 at 4:35:38 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsFrom Dr. No to Die Another Day, it feels like its supposed to be the same character all the way through despite the 40 year range and the static age.
Yeah, Bond is not this though. He’s way more an Anti-Hero and Guile Hero. Also, the reboot one is pretty much cut from the same cloth (though more emotionally tortured clearly).
@k4 Diamonds are Forever is definitely meant to follow what happened in On Her Majesty’s Secret Service and in Licence to Kill, Leiter mentions to his wife this about Bond: “He was married once, but that was a long time ago.”
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Oct 6th 2020 at 2:10:25 AM
to Mr. White
Well it looks like MF Jones didn't make the cut for MB, so okay I guess. I mean if it was just that one film alone then I would agree with the majority, but the 2nd film has Jones steal 5 million dollars right under the trio's noses and he basically gets away with his crimes at the end. I mean I got Tim Wattley from The Campaign, Gary Kingsbury from Game Night, and Mr. Right from Mr. Right and two people from Archer approved, so I just hope that we aren't being biased on candidates from adult comedies
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff@G Share any others you were planning to do in PM and I’ll tell you which ones I’m familiar with and if I think any of them are worth it.
I give Jones credit that he’s able to fool them into thinking he’s more intelligent than he actually is and he apparently has that gambit int the sequel where he come out on top in the end, but it’s not quite enough though. Also, the illusion of intelligence does not equal it though since characters on here are not approved just for pretending to be smart when they’re not.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Oct 6th 2020 at 4:47:30 AM
G, I'm still very iffy about Gary (he was still approved, but he did get a lot of downvotes in the relitigation). I'm also somewhat uneasy about Tim from The Campaign (just from what little I know about the movie).
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midG for the love of god, stop going on about bias against works which by nature should be scrutinized. You constantly come up with candidates no one else can fathom what you'd possibly find magnificent in them and always circle back on "Well I did X, Y and Z"... the difference is the ones you did get up aren't a joke about the main characters picking a "hitman" on a stereotype and turning out to be hilariously underwhelming in actuality. I'm tired of the false equivalence man.
Understood
So moving on I got another candidate to propose. Lightysnake recommended him to me and since I saw the movie and posted Mr. Blut in the Complete Monster forum I might as well EP him here. The movie in question is Polar so let us talk about it!
What’s The Work?
Polar is a 2019 neo-noir action film on Netflix that’s based on the webcomic series of the same name. Now the story’s premise is that Mr. Blut is having his retired assassins killed he can collect their pensions to make his company worth more for a buyout. One of his targets is Duncan Vizla, aka the “Black Kaiser” and Mads Mikkelsen’s character, Vizla is the character that I’ll be discussing today.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Duncan Vizla is the world’s greatest assassin known as the Black Kaiser whose about to turn 50 and retire from the killing business. Wanting to collect Vizla’s mention in the millions, Mr. Blut sends Vizla to Minsk to have him get killed. Luckily, Vizla figures it out kills Blut’s assassins and survives Blut’s trap before going back home.
Met with an old flame, Sindy, and taking her to his home, Blut’s hit-quad tries to ambush Vizla at his own home, only for Vizla to survive their attempt by outsmarting them before killing them off one by one before. Vizla would then meet with an old friend to figure out why Blut is trying to kill him and kidnap his neighbor Camille, only for said friend to betray him and hand him over to Mr. Blut.
Mr. Blut would then torture Mr. Blut for three days, while Vizla would exploit Blut’s torture sessions to find a way to escape which Vizla does before killing all of Blut’s men. Vizla would then meet up with a friend who supplies him with machine guns armed with lasers and Vizla would orchestrates an ambush to kill all of Blut’s assassins while using said machine guns with laser pointers to do the job.
He would then go the Mr. Blut’s home to kill Blut where all of Blut’s men leave the moment Vizla arrive and point him to where Blut where is hiding. Thus Vizla effortlessly kills Mr. Blut and rescue Camilla before heading him.
Vizla would then soon learn that Camilla is a child of a family that Vizla had a murder and tries to kill him. Deciding to accept his fate, Vizla closes his eyes and tells Camille to pull the trigger. However, Camille realizes that he cant kill Vizla despite what he had done where the two decide to work together to figure out who hired Vizla to kill Camille’s family.
Is He Intelligent? Is He Charismatic?
As an infamous assassin Vizla is quite intelligent and cunning using his wits to escape from the multiple attempts at his life, exploit a torture session to find a way to escape, and even arranges an ambush that leads to the deaths of all of Blut’s assassins.
As for charisma while he may not be the most sociable out there, he has been given a reputation of the world’s greatest assassin, while exploiting his own reputation and using his moniker, “Black Keisser” to get what he wants, as such when all of Blut’s guard immediately leaves the moment Vizla arrive and even tells Vizla where Blut is
What’s The Competition Like?
Vizla is arguably the most cunning and dignified character in the whole film, with no one coming close, especially not Mr. Blut whose basically Eric Cartman but an adult with a British accent. While a friend of Vizla does betray him, said doesn’t get enough characterization to be considered and Vizla eventually backs up to his feet
Is He a Bastard? Is He Too Much of a Bastard?
Vizla is a notorious hitmen who killed people for money wether they were guilty or innocent as such when he killed Camille’s family, still kills a lot of people in the movie and doesn’t hesitate to kill his allies if they betray him, such as Vivian who Vizla killed along with several other assassins in the ambush, so I’d say Vizla is enough of a bastard to count.
That said Vizla never does anything deplorable, isn’t sadistic in his crimes, did gave Vivian and the rest of Blut’s soldiers a chance to walk away before the refuse his offer, and genuinely care about Camille, showing immense guilt for having killed Camille’s family, looking after her and financing her education secretly, accepted is fate when Camille tries to kill him and eventually works with Camille to figure out who orchestrated the hit on her family.
Final Verdict?
I will leave it to you guys to decide.
@Lighty, Feel free to point anything I might have missed in the post and thanks for suggesting him for me.
Edited by G-Editor on Oct 6th 2020 at 3:16:38 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffI was actually thinking about EP'ing him myself. I'll give a
, particularly given the scenes where he takes out the A-Team (he decimates them despite only having a gun, he doesn't even have clothes) and his escape from Blut's lair.
Mikkelsen kills 75 in Polar.
Edited by k410ren on Oct 6th 2020 at 9:36:05 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills- Code Lyoko fanfic Bataille pour l'espoir
: Andrew Streep was originally one of many young graduates hired by the French government to work in Project Carthage on quantum mechanics. When Youbakou Senja took over the project for his nefarious purposes and attempted to kill Streep, the latter found help within the French government who protected him in exchange for total cooperation, leading to Streep becoming the General Alexandre Hussinger. Hussinger then engaged in multiple schemes to stop Senja, such as killing the Prime Minister and staging a coup to take over France and use it's resources against Carthage and save the captured Lyoko-warriors, faking his death, send Léopold to rescue the Lyoko-warriors and using the Lyoko-warrior Jérémie as a Reverse Mole to kill Senja — a near success —, and figuring out how the Grande Arche works and telling his subordinate Kiichi how to breach it. Even when mortally wounded by Senja, Hussinger remained unshakable and determined to stop Carthage at all costs, successfully killing Senja and ordering the Eiffel Tower's destruction, aware it could cause a city-wide blackout disorienting Carthage's planes now unable to see their targets.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Oct 6th 2020 at 3:33:47 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)

There are tons of books. If someone wishes to make a case for a villain there, they're more than welcome, there's probably someone or other in there.