During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Has anyone seen And Then There Were None (2015). I'm wondering if Charles dance's version of Wargrave is worth an ep if theirs enough differences. If not I'll just add him to Charles list on mbs by actor. So is he too similar ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Hearty 'Yes' to both Prosciutto and Burger Beard, great job verifying that one, 43!
And though it's late? Looking back, I think I'll a give a 'Yes' to Burnham as well, I had discounted him once before (massive Fincher fan, here), but I think your arguments were very well put Morgen, and even though things get out of his control, he does everything he can to keep the lid on things, and even pulls a really cool moral choice at the end that endears him a hellton.
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!I noticed the same MB entry is listed on both YMMV.Micronauts and YMMV.Micronauts IDW, is that intentional? It seems to be referring specifically to the version of the character in the IDW comic, which has its own page.
Alright, have a heroic example coming up:
What's the work?
Hero is a 2002 Wu Xia film starring Jet Li as "Nameless" a seeming man of Qin and a lowly prefect who is nonetheless possessed of incredible and almost supernatural talents with the sword. Having defeated and killed the three most feared assassins of Zhao, Nameless is allowed an audience with the King of Qin who seeks to conquer the entire land, "All Under Heaven", even allowed within an unthinkable amount of paces as he recounts his story...however, the King is more perceptive than Nameless realizes, leading to a mental duel between the two men as they attempt to separate truth from lies...
Who is Nameless?
In truth a man of Zhao, Nameless has been undercover in the kingdom of Qin as a prefect to set up their plot: working with Long Sky, broken Sword and Snow, Nameless had developed an incredible martial arts technique where he is able to kill anything within 10 paces. He and Sky fake a duel at a gambling house, with Nameless seen by Qin soldiers fatally wounding Sky...except he's so precise he deals a wound that only appears to be mortal.
Nameless then spins a tale how Snow cheated on Broken Sword with Sky, sundering the bond between them, which resulted in Broken Sword sleeping with his apprentice Moon. Nameless's story is about how he used this to drive a wedge between them, resulting in Snow being furious and emotionally distraught, allowing him to easily cut her down. This story fails, however, because the King of Qin had personally faced Snow and Broken Sword and knows they're people of honor and integrity who wouldn't succumb to such pettiness, telling his own idea of what happened....the King guesses correctly all this was done so Nameless could get within ten paces of him....but Nameless says the King has only guessed part of the truth.
Now, Nameless did defeat and seemingly "kill" Snow in front of the Qin army, but Broken Sword had, three years ago, broken into the palace and dueled the King of Qin, refusing to kill him for a mysterious reason. It turnsout that Broken Sword believes the land must be united, even by tyrannical conquest, and the King of Qin stands the best chance to do it. The King is shocked that of all those to understand his aims, it's his archenemy and realizes Nameless's plan has worked: his guards are 100 paces away, Nameless can kill him at any time. With newfound enlightenment, he realizes the meaning of true martial arts and the soul of the warriors...reflecting on Broken Sword's words, Nameless strikes...and hit the King with the pommel of his sword, whispering that he should heed Nameless's words and ensure a unified peaceful state: All Under Heaven.
Realizing his fate, Nameless walks into the courtyard as archers assemble and the King reluctantly gives the order, having Nameless shot dead, with the assassin receiving a hero's funeral.
How's he operate?
Now, Nameless is very stoic and controlled, but this is expected. He's more emotional than he appears, being a Zhao patriot out to, initially kill a tyrant threatening his home. Despite this, Nameless's plans work. He fakes two major duels to fool the Qin army and get to the King. Now, the King sees through the first story, but there's a big point made how the King is a genuinely honorable and intelligent man and his repartee with Nameless isn't treated as Nameless being outsmarted: rather, it's a worthy opponent getting details wrong as well, and Nameless's plan has still worked. For all the banter, he can kill the King anytime he wants and only wishes him to understand why all this is happening first. By the end, he abandons his mission and even allows his own death because he thinks it's best for the nation as a whole, using his death as a way to force the king to remember his vow.
Is he a bastard?
Nameless is undoubtedly heroic, but he's willing to kill the King even if it prolongs a rather nasty war between the warring states of China. Even at the end, sparing the King is still allowing a tyrant to go on, brutally conquer six kingdoms because "peace is gonna come after" with the King also seeking to stamp out multiple cultures to present one language, writing system, etc. Yeah, there's..a lot of propaganda undertones to the film, Han nationalism, etc. But I digress...yeah, Nameless hits it.
Despite that, Nameless cares for his friends dearly, love his country and ultimately sacrifices his life for what he sees at the greater good.
Conclusion?
A pass for Nameless.
Nameless
Though wouldn't that emperor be Qin Shi Huang aka one of the most batshit crazy dictators ever. This seems like a weird point the film is going with.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Well you have to admit it is hilarious that jet li ended up playing the emperor himself twice
Btw found this on Black Butler. I feel like we discussed this and it didn't go anywhere.
- Magnificent Bastard:
- In the anime, Lau.
- By the end of Season 2 Hannah qualifies as well.
- Alois: Although he spends most of the series as The Chessmaster mostly because of his immature mannerisms, he graduates to this level when he makes a contract with Hannah detailing that she gets Sebastian and Claude to fight for the ownership for Ciel's soul. And the winner... will be screwed over when they find out that Ciel's soul can't be consumed because Ciel has become a demon.
Alright, close enough to the time...
What's the work?
The Babysitter is a 2017 horror comedy that received a sequel 2 weeks ago called Killer Queen...Cole is a young man with overprotective parents. He's bullied in school, he's known as something of a nerd...his solace? Even if his parents think he still needs a babysitter, his babysitter Bee is freaking awesome. She's beautiful, cool, badass and unfortunately happens to be the head of a satanist cult that needs Cole's blood. So, a cat and mouse ensues...so let's talk Bee.
Who is Bee?
Major spoilers to follow: Years ago, Bee was the babysitter for a girl named Phoebe. When Phoebe forgot her toy at the lakeside, Bee, being awesome, drove with her to get it. Unfortunately, freak chance ended with a car accident with Phoebe's parents and their deaths. Little Phoebe was almost killed, but Bee escaped almost unharmed. Devastated, in the hospital, Bee was approached by the devil who offered to save Phoebe in exchange for Bee's soul....Bee agreed and became a servant of the devil who held a powerful grimoire. Bee's MO was to kill a sacrifice, mix their blood with those of an innocent and drink it, finding innocents from the kids she babysat. Cole ended up seeing Bee with her cult killing a guy they lured over and Bee found out Cole saw before capturing him.
After killing cops who came to investigate, Bee turned her attention to Cole, who escaped and one by one eliminated the cult members by a combo of luck and ingenuity. When menaced by the last cultist, Bee killed that one herself to save Cole and offered him a place with her. Refusing, Cole defeated and seemingly fatally wounded Bee before bidding her an emotional farewell, even refusing their "ET friendship gesture" for his disgust at her...Bee's body was never found.
Turns out, Bee survived and went underground. Cole's friend Melanie rebuilt the cult, reviving the old members...while Bee subtly manipulated events to help Cole behind the scenes, pushing Melanie in the right ways, while also bringing in the now-grown Phoebe to meet Cole to help wipe out the cult. She sabotaged Phoebe's jet ski to put her in the right place, knowing Cole and Phoebe were smart enough to elude the cult...and also guessing Phoebe and Cole were perfect for one another and would hook up, since as she told Cole when he was 12, the right girl would one day appreciate his weirdness.
Cole was recaptured and bled by the cult as Bee arrived...except when they drank his blood? As Bee had planned, Cole was no longer an "innocent", so his blood killed them all. Prompting, I'll note, the best line from my favorite cultist Max: ("You fucking stud, Cole! I'm not even mad, bro! RESPECT!") before the cult was destroyed. Bee reconciled with Cole and Phoebe, but in atonement for the evil she'd done, Bee drank the blood to kill herself as well, but timed it so Cole's dad saw...meaning he knew everything Cole had ever said was true, Cole forgiving Bee at last.
How's she operate?
Bee is pretty awesome in general. She's charming to a T, is a really awesome babysitter, fooling Cole and his parents perfectly. The cult is totally in her control at first, plus none of her affability is fake in the slightest. She really is a nice person who happens to be a manipulative satanist. Add in the sheer tragedy for how she fell from grace, plus how smart she is. Cole is a sharp kid, but Bee sees through most of his plans, such as when Cole tries to give a fake code over the police radio that'll mean "officer down." Bee realizes instantly he's lying and pressures him for the real one.
Then comes movie 2. While Bee relies on some luck, she admits she didn't know Cole and Phoebe would be so perfect for one another, but she had a real good idea and played the entire cult flawlessly, even using her own death for redemption and to clear Cole's name to his dad.
Is she a bastard? Too much?
I mean, she's an evil satanist? She doesn't murder the children but she does take their blood (nonfatally). She does kill others for sacrifice and murders one cop along the way. Bee admit she's evil, but also acknowledges Cole changed her.
That said, she' incredibly affable, truly loves Cole in a brotherly way and sold her soul to save Phoebe...you'd think thi would breed some resentment towards Phoebe, but Bee shows no sign of anything but love towards her. And she does an epic Heel–Face Turn and Redemption Equals Death.
Conclusion?
Hell yes for Bee.

Sure to Prosciutto and Burger Beard.