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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#28002: Sep 22nd 2020 at 1:50:43 PM

Switching to a yes on Burger Beard then. Definitely a fun villain from my memory. It had just been a while since I have seen the movie. Hence me abstaining originally.

Edited by Bullman on Sep 22nd 2020 at 3:52:11 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#28003: Sep 22nd 2020 at 1:52:10 PM

@ Satoshi, Hillenburg actually helped write this one and it shows in the film.

DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#28004: Sep 22nd 2020 at 1:53:18 PM

In that case, yes to Burgah Beard.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#28005: Sep 22nd 2020 at 1:53:20 PM

@Satoshi: Their is one more film their doing. So not the end yet.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#28006: Sep 22nd 2020 at 1:54:25 PM

[up][up][up] Man was taken from us too soon. RIP.

[tup] Burger Beard. We got ourselves a damn Spongebob MB!

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#28007: Sep 22nd 2020 at 1:54:39 PM

[tup] to Henry, Reasoner, Satori, and Burger Beard

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#28008: Sep 22nd 2020 at 1:54:52 PM

Alright then, a yes for Burger Beard.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#28010: Sep 22nd 2020 at 1:55:34 PM

Yes to Burger Beard. I really got to watch the film now.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#28011: Sep 22nd 2020 at 2:14:54 PM

Yes to Henry, Reasoner and Burger Beard (now I want to watch the movie).

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#28012: Sep 22nd 2020 at 2:15:45 PM

@43110 I know that. I meant with all the stuff they’re doing now. Seriously, they waited for Hillenburg to die before green lighting three spin offs! That’s a dick move.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#28013: Sep 22nd 2020 at 2:25:04 PM

Oh... that is... a whole other thing I won't comment on.

erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#28015: Sep 22nd 2020 at 2:33:18 PM

You know what [tup] Burger Beard. Rewatched it myself, and he is charming enough and funny enough. As to Hillenburg and spongebob, I'll just say: Seasons 1-3 of spongebob are like seasons 1-8 of the simpsons and Hillenburg was a prominent voice in those 3 seasons.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#28016: Sep 22nd 2020 at 2:34:56 PM

[up][up]PM if your curious and don't want to go off-topic or clog up the thread.

[up]The show ends for me with the first film. It can't be topped. Though this is a fun prequel

Edited by miraculous on Sep 22nd 2020 at 2:35:42 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#28017: Sep 22nd 2020 at 2:47:38 PM

Well, time to get to doing an EP on one of the other Vento Aureo characters I said I’d do. I’m only half a year late.

Who is he? What does he do?

Prosciutto is one of the members of the rogue assassination team for Passione, along with the mentor for fellow member, Pesci. Ordered by Risotto Nero to kidnap Trish and kill the heroes, Prosciutto and Pesci arrive at the Naples train station where the Bucciarati’s group are. They chase down Bucciarati when they see him, but Bucciarati manages to lose sight of them with the turtle Coco Jumbo and it’s stand, Mr President (basically an alternate dimension that takes the form of a furnished room). Pesci thinks that they’re hiding somewhere else in the station, but Prosciutto correctly deduces that they’re on the train as he noticed Bucciarati picked up the turtle.

Unable to find them directly, even with Pesci’s life detecting fishing pole, Prosciutto uses his stand, The Grateful Dead, to weed them out. His stand allows him to rapidly age people based off their body temperature, the warmer they are the faster they age. Due to women having a lower body temperature then men (no idea if this is true in real life or not) he can age the rest of Bucciarati’s group to death while Trish remains alive, endangering the lives of countless people on the train.

Prosciutto leaves Pesci near the engine room to attack whoever comes out, knowing that a member of Bucciarati’s gang will turn on the AC to slow the aging. Sure enough, Mista goes out to turn on the AC, but he’s caught by Pesci’s hook. When Mista defeats Pesci, a rapidly aged man gets in Mista’s way of killing Pesci. Turns out, this old man is actually Prosciutto, who aged himself up to look like a victim, unknown to even Pesci. He touches Mista and rapidly ages him to a feeble old man and then shoots Mista’s head three times to make sure he'd be dead. (Mista’s sapient stand, Sex Pistols, saves Mista’s life, but points on Prosciutto for being cautious)

Prosciutto demonstrates Tough Love by beating and lecturing Pesci for panicking in battle and said panic leading to Mista nearly killing him, but telling him that he believes in Pesci and that if Pesci is more confident, he’ll be an unstoppable assassin. After checking under a seat in the engine room and noticing animal shit, where Pesci said his stand previously sensed life there, Prosciutto quickly deduces that Bucciarati’s gang is hiding inside an animal with a long life span, later finding said turtle.

However, just as he’s about to age everyone in the turtle to death, he and Pesci notice Bucciarati is missing. Bucciarati ambushes Prosciutto (he’s not aged much as he’s been rubbing ice on himself to slow down the aging) having heard about his stand from Sex Pistols. Bucciarati briefly knocks out Pesci and has the upperhand against Prosciutto, but Prosciutto reveals that the more they fight, the more calories Bucciarati burns, and of course, the more his body temperature increases, causing the act of simply fighting to age up Bucciarati, despite the ice. However, right when Prosciutto uses his stand to grab Bucciarati and is about to age him to death, Bucciarati uses his stand, Sticky Fingers, to create zippers around the engine room and unzips them, sending both him and Prosciutto flying out of the train.

Pesci wakes up and uses his fishing pole at the last second to save Prosciutto (and inadvertently Bucciarati as he grabbed onto Prosciutto’s leg) and Prosciutto apologizes to Bucciarati for underestimating him, admitting that Bucciarati is a shining example as a leader before attempting to knock him off his leg. But, using the fishing pole string against Prosciutto and Pesci (it absorbs and redirects energy) Bucciaratti uses his stand to open up Prosciutto's hand, causing him to fall underneath the train to his death.

However, even that’s not enough to get Prosciutto to give up. Using the last of his strength, he hangs on to the lower side of the train, keeping his stand active for as long as possible to continue to weaken Bucciaratti, entrusting his apprentice, Pesci, to finish off Bucciarati. This leads to Pesci gaining confidence in himself and stepping up as a killer, giving Bucciaratti one of the toughest fights he gets and nearly killing Giorno, Abacchio, and Fugo all at once.

How do his actions show that he’s a Magnificent Bastard?

Prosciutto proved to not only be a cunning opponent, but an inspiring big brother figure to who the rest of the gang thought was just a bumbling sidekick. Each time he’s outsmarted, he bounces back from it soon afterwards, continues to be a threat to the group even when taken out of the fight, and contributes to one of the most notable examples of Character Development a villain receives, getting Pesci to become both more competent and confident.

Any mitigating factors?

He’s pretty cruel, but not particularly sadistic, and while he’s quite rough on Pesci, it’s clear that he still cares for him. Only possible mitigating factor I see is that at the end of the day, he and Pesci failed completely, whereas other minions from JoJo who are MBs (Esidisi, N’Doul, and Ringo), even though they were defeated, they either helped shift tides in favor of the villains, or accomplished a personal goal of theirs even upon dying. Still, we have MBs who failed their goals, so I don’t think that’s much of a red flag.

Final Thoughts?

[tup] from me. You guys?

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#28019: Sep 22nd 2020 at 3:02:15 PM

So, with 14 [tup] now, it seems like people are onboard with Burger Beard. Here's my write-up for him:

  • The SpongeBob Movie: Sponge Out of Water: Burger Beard is a swashbuckling pirate with dreams of converting his ship into his very own food truck. Travelling the seven seas with his crew of seagulls, Burger Beard tracks down a magical book that allows anyone who writes within it to change reality to their will. Using the book to steal the Krabby Patty secret formula, he causes Bikini Bottom to descend into anarchy while he makes a profit selling Krabby Patties on the beach; all without anyone being the wiser. Once SpongeBob and his friends track him down, Burger Beard uses the book to banish them to Pelican Island while he continues running his restaurant in peace. When SpongeBob returns after turning his friends into superheroes, Burger Beard uses his own guile to keep the heroes on their toes and eventually defeat them one-by-one. Although he's eventually taken down by Plankton, Burger Beard remains humble in defeat and indulges in his crew's request to sing the SpongeBob theme song. Ever-resourceful, Burger Beard is one of the craftiest villains to ever make their way to Bikini Bottom.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#28020: Sep 22nd 2020 at 3:02:52 PM

[tup]Prosciutto

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#28023: Sep 22nd 2020 at 3:10:39 PM

[tup]Prosciutto.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#28024: Sep 22nd 2020 at 3:10:39 PM

Abstaining since I’m going to watch it once it hits Netflix in like two years or something.

Pathetic, I know.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP

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