During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Reaver
Since they were approved, here are my writeups for Keto and Ramlin:
Keto from "The Siege Of Serus" is the asteroid like creature and the representative of his race. Crash landing on Primus, Keto showcased himself to be completely unstoppable, easily brushing off pretty much all of planet's weaponry and even He-Man's legendary Power Sword. As he was redirected toward the ocean, he began draining the energy of the underwater city of Serus, leading its barriers starting to crack, threatening to drown all the population inside. Letting the heroes know that he's sentient, Keto announced his intention of draining the entire planet of energy to continue his travel and then manipulates He-Man to going to his ship and fighting him. As He-Man's powers prove useless against Keto, leading to he-Man deciding to offering them in exchange of Keto sparing the planet, Keto was impressed with such act of nobility and reveals that all of this was a test that he performed on many other planets to see if the people on theese worlds were dangerous to his race. Complementing He-Man on his bravery and goodness, Keto leaves Primus unharmed.
Ramlin from "The New Wizard in Town" is one of the most powerful wizards in the entire universe, who desired to relieve his days of glory. Growing weaker with his age, Ramlin accepted the invitation to wizard meeting on Primus from Master Sebrian, devising a plan to get all his former power back. Easily defeating the entire faction of Evil Mutants within minutes along the way to Primus, Ramlin tricks the heroes to trust him be performing the magic trick and acting friendly and kind. Setting his plan in motion later on, Ramlin manipulates two wizards at the meeting to give him their magic, enslaving them to his will, before he battles the heroes, making them attack him, which he uses to make himself more powerful. After He-Man catch on to this and refused to attack him, not giving him any source for power, Ramlin admits defeat and releases his captives and leaves Primus, promising to return.
Reaver, and here's a candidate that just sprung to mind!
What's the work?
Wedding Peach is a Magical Girl Warrior multimedia project, consisting of 6 manga volumes and 52 anime episodes, plus 4 OVA episodes. For this candidate I'll be looking solely at the manga, mainly cause I haven't watched the anime.
The story consists of Momoko Hanasaki and her friends, Yuri and Hinagiku (with Scarlett joining as a Sixth Ranger), as they're recruited by the goddess Aphrodite to become Love Angels to fight demons and find the Sacred Four Somethings, symbols of love that can eventually defeat the demon queen Rain DeVilla. There are multiple Arc Villains throughout the story, but one of them, Potamos, stands out.
Who's Potamos and what does she do?
Potamos appears around the middle of Volume 4 as a water-themed demon who has a crush on the current arc villain, the fire demon Ignis. While initially played for humor, she turns serious and creepy when the Love Angels manage to drain Ignis' powers with Peach's latest power, Sacred Crystal Love For You, and turn him good. Potamos, unhappy at her crush's powers being drained and seeing him as beyond hope, gives him a Mercy Kill with an ice spear and vows to take revenge for him. She fights the Love Angels for the first time at the end of Volume 4, and when Peach tries the same tactic against her, Potamos turns into water and escapes, noting that she has to be careful of the spell.
Ignis had known of Peach's civilian identity, but instead of just watching her from afar to strike as he did, Potamos inserts herself into the Angels' lives by posing as a New Transfer Student, letting her watch directly and attack directly if need be. At the start of Volume 5, she's taken over as the Arc Villain and almost instantly kills the Love Angels while at a soccer game by drowning them in a cocoon of water before they can even attack. She's only stopped when Yosuke, the boy Momoko loves, unexpectedly reveals his half-demon powers, which start to crush her. Before this she notes how good-looking he is, quickly developing a new crush.
Potamos escapes, and towards the middle of Volume 5 she fights the Love Angels again. When Peach tries the Sacred Crystal magic again, Potamos puts up a shield of water to block the spell, encases the Love Angels in ice, and this time takes out Yosuke in case he bursts with power again. Potamos then notes how cute he is and hopes he'll love her, and while her moment of enamor is played for humor, she turns serious by noting he'll only fall in love with her if the competition isn't around. Potamos moves to kill the Love Angels, and is stopped by the sudden appearance of Angel Salvia, the Sixth Ranger with a bad attitude against demons. Salvia kills Potamos's familiar, Pumpie, and she's dismayed by the loss as she escapes once more.
With Salvia's arrival Peach and the Love Angels now have all of the Sacred Four Somethings, and they investigate Yosuke and eventually learn he's a half-demon, born from a demon father who lost his memory in a battle and a human mother. With the 'help' of his father Uragano, Yosuke turns into the wind demon Viento, which makes Potamos even more interested in him, though he doesn't reciprocate. Out of a desire to protect Peach, he tells Potamos he'll deal with her and to leave her alone. Potamos agrees, but by the start of Volume 6 she's annoyed that Vi-Vi hasn't made the slightest move against Peach.
Going behind Viento and Uragano's backs, Potamos uses her Hiromi Kawanami identity to ask for Momoko's transforming compact, then reveals herself and traps all four girls with hard water—she notes that even with all the Sacred Four Somethings, they're no threat at all if they can't transform. Potamos decides to kill Peach first to stop her from getting to Viento, but the danger alerts Viento somehow and he teleports to their location, freeing her. Potamos realizes Viento really does love Peach, and so does Uragano, who's disappointed in his son and moves to kill him. Instead, Potamos takes the blow and dies in Viento's arms, explaining that she wanted him to live, and Peach realizes she really did love Yosuke in the end.
From then on the Love Angels redeem Uragano and Rain Devilla, saving the day, but if not for a streak of Deus Ex Machinas Potamos would have killed them at least 3 times.
Charming? Good planner?
Definitely! She's cute and funny when the mood's light and deadly serious when it's not, and she continually adjusts her schemes to take advantage of the heroines and any help the might get. She's also never really defeated by the heroes, like, at all, instead escaping when things get too hairy.
Competition?
Other manga arc villains include Pluie, a wind demon who acts as the antagonist of Volumes 1-3, and Ignis, who was a villain for the majority of Volume 4. Pluie looks good on paper but is a Smug Snake at times, sending a filler demon to test Lily and Daisy's powers and assuming he killed the girls at one point when they were still alive, while Ignis enters a contract with a boy with a crush on Hinagiku. They endanger the Love Angels a few times and do know Peach's identity, but don't take advantage of it like Potamos does, and none of the demons except her think of preventing them from transforming. Rain Devilla is a generic villain with no explanation for her evil (apparently she had a story but the author ran out of pages), and Uragano is cruel but not particularly clever, and is also redeemed.
A bastard? Too much?
Yandere, thy name is Potamos. That said, she does feel legitimately sorry for Ignis as she kills him, and conspires with his orphaned familiar, Blackie, for revenge. She's also upset when Salvia kills her familiar, Pumpie, and by the end she redeems herself by taking a mortal blow for Viento, dying in his arms.
Conclusion?
An upvote from me.
Edited by lalalei2001 on Aug 25th 2020 at 5:55:17 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.Yes to the Disgaea Duo, Reaver, and Potamos.
I was wondering when someone would get to Disgaea. I expected Lighty to as he's the main RPG buff, but great EPs regardless.
I'd hear out a Carmen Sandiego game show effortpost, but I feel she's too theoretical and not as explored as the one we approved. I'm actually kinda surprised we got Sandiego approved as I figured she was a Guile Hero.
Found this on YMMV.Big Brother.
- Is Big Brother 21 a good season? Due to the unique combination of having one of the worst pre-jury sessions in the history of the show, along with a great jury phase where nearly every pre-jury villain got what was coming to them week after week, only to end with the season's unofficial heroes getting evicted just before the finale for the season's Magnificent Bastard to win, and then promptly get called out on his racist behavior...
First of all and most obviously, a MB is not a bigot in any way, shape or form. Second, we all agreed not to trope reality shows with this. Third, this guy was more akin to a bully who only won because there really was no other option as the heroes were both voted off. I changed the pothole to Manipulative Bastard.
Edited by Klavice on Aug 25th 2020 at 6:32:40 AM
Here's a writeup!
Wedding Peach: Potamos is a water demon and the final Arc Villain. Initially having a crush on the fire demon Ignis, she gives him a Mercy Kill when he's redeemed and has his powers drained, vowing revenge on the Love Angels. Potamos attempts to kill them several times and is nearly successful, particularly when she tries to kill them in their civilian identities by not letting them transform, and only fails due to outside circumstances. Her crush on Yosuke/Viento ultimately leads to her taking a mortal wound for him, and she dies happy that he lived, with Wedding Peach realizing her feelings for him were genuine.
Edited by lalalei2001 on Aug 25th 2020 at 10:36:30 AM
The Protomen enhanced my life.
Reaver and Potato... ahem, Potamos
@Klavice in the 2019 series she’s definitely a Guile Hero, but in the past she was, an antagonist.
Albeit a very friendly and affable one'
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Uh from what I heard it still remains controversial since she's one of gaming and western animations most beloved villains so naturally a change like that won't go Down well with the fan base.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Another Pathfinder example, one to go right under Asmodeus himself. The archdevil Mephistopheles.
Who is Mephistopheles?
The ruler of Caina, the Eighth Layer of Hell. Mephistopheles actually predates Asmodeus's rulership of hell, being the consciousness of hell itself. This being didn't have direction until Asmodeus landed there. Seeking a lieutenant, he tore the mind from the hell and shaped a new form of ash and hellfire. The resultant being was tall, handsome, red-skinned, horned and winged. Mephistopheles, one of the first of archdevils, and most loyal to Asmodeus.
Mephistopheles became the prophet of hell, preaching the 'truth' of its iron order and deadly necessity. His main role in hell? He's the archdevil of contracts whose job it is to make deals. Like Asmodeus, Mephistopheles is an incredible bargainer, offering deals with catches and exploiting them as needed. He's also an incredible liar, able to insult and deceive all other devils to their faces except for Asmodeus himself.
In Hell's Rebels, the wicked priest Barzillai Thrune makes a pact with Mephistopheles, wanting to become a Genius Loci of his nation. The deal was simple: Barzillai does his end, which involves killing people as a blood sacrifice, but he has to live out his days normally. If he dies, he still gets to become a Genius Loci buuuut he'll be tortured in hell as he deserves for the rest of his lifespan. Barzillai is pretty desperate to avoid this. Thing is...Mephistopheles wants to study Barzillai's depraved soul, see what makes him tick, so he helps to subtly rig the deck to ensure Barzillai does fall. Alo part of the archdevil's scheme is the heroes disrupting Barzillai's torment so his undead remnants can start attacking Cheliax. Mephistopheles informs Barzillai of how he can still fulfill the deal to set the heroes and the evil Thrune against one another.
When the heroes make it into hell, they're greeted by Mephistopheles' envoys, who graciously allow them an attempt to kill Barzillai in his Tower of Bone. Only one catch: they cannot interfere with the damnation of anyone else. All those souls have made their choices.
Mephistopheles has also rgged the game so he comes out on top, no matter what. As his minion comments:
" “Lord Mephistopheles has no time for pawns who cannot succeed on their own. By defeating Barzillai once, you have done the lord of this realm a favor. By defeating Barzillai again, you do my lord another in consigning a prime soul to his eternal servitude. If you attempt to defeat him and fail, one of Mephistopheles’s greatest pawns will succeed in your world despite your greatest efforts. In either event, Lord Mephistopheles is content."
The heroes get throigh, finish Barzillai off...and Mephistopheles descends to turn Barzillai's corpse into a contract which he tucks away, remarking:
"“And with that, you have closed the book on this man’s life. As I had hoped all along. By defying my pawn, and by showing his nation that House Thrune does not have the control it thought, you have given them spurs. The nation’s pride, as surely as Barzillai’s pride, will be its downfall, and your actions have, my Master hopes, served as a warning. Enjoy, then, your new nation’s freedom, Ravens of Silver, and rest assured that your troubles with this particular Thrune have ended."
What a guy, right? Of course, if the PC's wanna bargain with him...well.
Read the fine print.
How's he operate?
Mephistopheles is erudite, brilliant and charming. He's the chief archdevil of contracts, so presenting people with infernal deals to be twisted is his hat. He plays other archdevils perfectly, and the only one who's better than him is Asmodeus. Not an issue, as Asmodeus isn't sitting there endlessly making Meph look like a clown as he does in DND...no, the two have a functional buddy relationship, Mephistopheles having zero desire to move against or overthrow him. Mephistopheles is absolutely content with his role as number 2 man, and carries it out with aplomb.
Hell's Rebels? It says a lot it all goes perfectly according to plan, Mephistopheles arranging it so that no matter what? Well, he wants Barzillai defeated so he can claim his soul and get rid of the creepy bastard, but...whatever the outcome, Mephistopheles wins.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
He's an archdevil. He's the purveyor of contracts of hell. Which means he's on board and facilitates the damnation of countless souls, which in hell...isn't pleasant. He says the PC's are free to add to the torments of Barzillai's followers but cannot help them for the choices they've made.
Still, Mephistopheles isn't a threat as long as you're not going after hell or you're not bargaining with him. He's pretty up front with his contracts. It's not his fault you didn't read them properly, or that you're willing to sign away your soul to hell for power and riches. and he's got a surprising amount of redeeming qualities, such as his genuine friendship with Asmodeus. And when the heroes finish everything he wanted them to do, he's a fair point and more than willing to send them on their way home with no further interference. This is pretty common for Mephistopheles, too.
Conclusion?
A powerful, charming archdevil happily playing with everyone as pieces on a chessboard, able to easily manipulate his own who serves as a loyal willing dragon to a well-intentioned extremist archdevil?
I say thee pass.
There's a lot of Depending on the Writer for Meph's DND counterpart. Even if Asmodeus will always be his Always Someone Better
Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 25th 2020 at 9:19:26 AM
