During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread
for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I think that's solid logic and I can concur. For future cases how do we wanna draw the line: if a character sharing the likeness of a person from history isn't above a line of a certain level of infamy and they don't follow the actions of their real life counterpart? We want the Stalins, Hitlers, etc. only related by very minor references to title, position etc.? I'm curious for thoughts here.
Yeah I think you're right he is somewhat divorced from his real life counterpart. We have approved people who have engaged in mass torture though. They're generally speaking not real world. I'm thinking if the person is inpsired from someone pre-1800 who engaged in crimes against humanity, there's a certain historical distance there that makes it slightly more palatable if they're given any sort of Adaptational Heroism or Adaptational Nice Guy traits.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midIMO if we're dealing with real historical figures, I'm more comfortable the more divorced they are from the real figure.
When it comes to fictional parallels meant to represent them? Eh, I think I probably draw the line around title or position parallels. If they directly parallel and reference them in the ways that, say, Wrath allegedly does, (I haven't actually watched FMA) then no matter how cool, charismatic or smart they are, I'm probably gonna say no. Like with the historical stuff, the more divorced from their basis the better.
Edit: On the other side of that coin, though, if a character does things which resemble the deeds of a real historical figure but clearly isn't meant to represent said figure, I'm also willing to be generous. For example, Prince Maximilian and Kuvira both do some stuff that parallels certain real-world dictators, but I'm going to give them a pass because they're clearly meant to be entirely separate from said dictators in how they're interpreted.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Aug 22nd 2020 at 12:12:03 PM
For the most part I agree but that still leaves the issue of Dessler—who comes about as close to objectively being this trope as one can be—getting his title from the Japanese word for Fuhrer and his first name being Albelt, with the roots obvious. He literally subverts the Fantastic Racism of his regime by boxing his dislike of it, so I can’t really get behind that blanket cut off Riley.
That's entirely fair. Honestly, it's hard for me to say there is a "blanket cut-off" because a lot of these are case-by-case things.
Edit: Which is to say I'm simply noting what will incline me toward a certain direction in these cases. I don't really have a call to make on that particular case because I don't think I know enough and I have difficulty being objective in situations such as that.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Aug 22nd 2020 at 12:15:30 PM
I can live with the case by case finale, as long as the precedents used and rulings are consistent. For the record I find the most interesting MBs tend to be ones who are really testing the waters with how far you can go in one direction or another. For all the talk of Lust and sadism when Lighty did her Kimblee is objectively nastier. I strongly think he counts, obviously as I posted him but while not racist he also laughs about his war crimes and grins like a lunatic when he remembers who Scar was. The fact his moral code offsets it is what makes him so great.
The other main thing I'd note from this discussion is that I'm willing to be lenient on the kind of evil that doesn't have real-world parallels and evil that has poeticism to it. Kimblee or Makishima seem to have some level of artistry and ideals to their deeds, horrid as that artistry may be, which softens the blow for me.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Aug 22nd 2020 at 12:40:48 PM
Makishima in general is so ethereal and poetic in what he does and how he does it that I can't find him detestable in the same way most CMs who near this trope are. For me, it's often a matter of simple detestability; Makishima passes the test for me by being utterly charismatic and brilliant, hardly detestable at all. He's not driven by greed, or egotism, or even ambition. He's just a poet without empathy with a fondness for the morbid and cruel.
Contrast him with frequent comparisons Johan Liebert (Who's too far into Creepy Awesome for this) and The Joker (Who's driven entirely by a selfish, sadistic desire to see people hurt one another and is clearly shocked when people turn out to be fundamentally decent.)
So I found this on Tropico
- Magnificent Bastard: El Presidente certainly shows signs of this in campaign mode. In particular, there's the Isla Desconida mission in 4, where El Presidente gets the island accepted as a European colony, then starts a communist revolution against...himself. Led by himself. To install himself as the ruler. The soviet agent and Penultimo are both pretty confused by the end.
Isn't this dude the player character.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Tentative
to Dai Li
You know I was wondering on wether or not Johan Liebert could count? I mean he’s like Makashima in that Johan is a Manipulative Bastard, Wicked Cultured, hardly if ever looses his cool, and is a popular villain. I mean I’m aware that he is Creepy Awesome, but we have had plenty of villains who are Creepy Awesome yet still managed to qualify with Kira from Jojo being an example
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 21st 2020 at 10:31:04 PM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffHe's evil is cool and creepy awesome but I think some of his actions like getting kids to jump from buildings are too vile for this trope.
He's closer to Joker or Darth Sidious here in that the character is a CM but more entertaining than totally despicable, but is still way too evil for this trope.
I've never read Monster, but from what I know about Johan he really is a Complete Monster. Might be as close as possible to a Deconstruction of that trope, but he does way too many heinous and fucked up things for me to ever see him count for this.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midYeah, I'd say beyond just being too Creepy Awesome, Liebert is too vile.
I haven't read monster yet (plan to) but I thought the point of the work is that for all of Johan's "excuses", he's still ultimately a vile, despicable man. Not really what were looking for....
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."One other point I kinda wanna clear up because I'd like the discussion about real life figures, reprehensible crimes, etc. to be a thorough one. Makishima is fine to call divorced from real life but Kimblee not so much... I strongly think he counts but if anyone wants to consume the work and challenge me that's fine but the fact is he was Bradley's number one killer in Ishval and for all of his "remember those you kill" preachings, it doesn't erase that he kills with glee in a very real and terrible setting. He's likely an intentional subversion to a complete monster-type but the crimes are there.
I'm reminded of when I put up Scirocco and people were trying to tell me he was objectively sexist, with one person upvoting while claiming he was on the basis that he was so charming it was okay.... um... Right for the Wrong Reasons much? A lot of the arguments were stretching but if statements which don't quite logically align are being given in response, I think a bit more familiarity with the work could help.
In general I'm finding it a bit of a blind spot on the thread as a whole.
Reading the Dai Li EP because he is one of my favorites TNO Characters.
In the case of Wrath, I don't count him not because he looks like Hitler, but rather that he directly ordered a ethnic genocide of Ishbalans. He could be named Hilter Von Stallyne Throta Fujimori Guzman or Abby Mandela Kindness and the result would be the same
Dai Li IRL is...pretty one of the most infamous Torture Technicians of Asia, he is awful. But in TNO, there isn't too much enphasis on the torture and more in his being a determinator that doesn't let the country fall to the Japanese (one of his few redeeming traits IRL)
It was me. I think Scirocco is sexist but not in a way that is disgusting enough to disqualify him. I didn't vote for him but I have no objections, truly a YMMV for me.
Uh, my memory fails.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 22nd 2020 at 4:29:30 AM
Watch me destroying my countrySince it came up a few pages ago: I'm not especially bothered if someone takes a character who's on my to-do list (except Nemesis). I'm pretty busy these days, so it might be a while. Also dealing with a bothersome ear infection ATM.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

I mean, my main reasoning I'm willing to upvote Dai Li is that he sounds actually quite divorced from his historical inspiration. I think I'd actually be more conflicted if he were closer to the real Dai Li.