During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Zeref.
Yes to Zeref and I'll take a look at your writeups when I have time later Elfen.
Does anyone mind that I propose some Pokémon candidates starting later today?
Also Zeref.
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Go ahead man.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I actually like to think that pokemon has a few good candidates from the games and anime/manga as a fan myself.
Edited by miraculous on Jul 19th 2018 at 7:14:32 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Take your time mate! I'll be patiently wait for that
Go ahead! While Lysandre got downvoted... I'm not sure who will qualify though. Sabrina? Manga!Cyrus? Maybe.
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jul 19th 2018 at 9:15:00 PM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
I have a number of Shonen to-dos: Sinbad, hao Asakura from Shaman King, Licht from Black Clover, probably Leuvis.
Also a couple of rewrites I had promised:
- Hitman series: Agent 47 himself is the iron-willed, stoic hitman of the series. Easily the greatest assassin in the world, 47 weaves through assignment after assignment, eliminating his targets and escaping with the world never becoming aware of his existence. Often coming up with schemes to eliminate a target to make it look like an a complete accident, 47 often finds himself entangled in broader conspiracies or threats that he inevitably brings down and destroys completely on his own with the same stylistic flourishes that he brings to his assignments. Agent 47 repeatedly shows why he is worthy of the title of the best hitman in the world, often bringing nothing less than justice on some of the most corrupt people in the world for the right price.
- Shadow of Mordor: Celebrimbor, the Bright Lord, is the one who forged the One Ring for Sauron, before realizing Sauron's true nature. Briefly overcoming Sauron and losing thanks to the wiles of the Ring itself, Celebrimbor returns as The Wraith in the present, manipulating the revived ranger Talion into slowly taking over parts of Mordor and establishing the kingdom of the Bright Lord, crushing the wills of the uruks to serve him to steadily supplant Sauron himself. Finally raising an army to challenge Sauron, Celebrimbor promptly abandons Talion for a host he believes to be stronger and even shows himself capable of challenging Sauron in a duel.
- Command and Conquer: Kane, the unshakable, powerful and charismatic master of the Brothrhood of Nod. Kane's manipulations go back all the way to Red Dawn when he plays the Soviets perfectly toward his end goals. In the present, Kane betrays his second in command and manipulates the entire GDI to play to his own ends. Kane later even starts the Third Tiberium War just to trick the GDI into launching an Ion Cannon strike on Temple Prime and detonating a liquid Tiberium bomb so he can call the Scrin to earth and hijack one of their gates to leave the earth and ascend. In Kane's Wrath. Not only does Kane manipulate the fractured Brotherhood into reunifying in the wake of Firestorm, he also engineers the rise of Redmond Boyle, who he wants to be in charge of GDI so he can manipulate him into using the Ion Cannon on Temple Prime. And he does all this while constructing LEGION, the ultimate strategic AI to interface with the Tacitus and bring him and Nod one step closer to ascension, ending by achieving every goal he sets out for.
Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 19th 2018 at 7:33:25 AM
Zeref
Goku Black
From The Lost World: Jurassic Park. Found this ?
- Magnificent Bastard: John Hammond is a Xanatos Speed Chess master in this film, countering his conniving nephew Ludlow's every move despite only being present in two scenes.
Is Hammond even all at all villainous in general ?
Edited by miraculous on Jul 19th 2018 at 7:39:15 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
God no. Cut it.
I'm going to start with the very first Big Bad in the franchise: Giovanni. Note that I'm doing the game version.
Who is Giovanni?
Giovanni, or Sakaki in Japan, is the boss of Team Rocket, a Yakuza-like group located in the Kanto and Johto regions. The organization runs multiple illegal businesses, including stealing Pokémon, stealing fossils, and cutting off Cubone skulls. However, Team Rocket has other dealings that they hide behind. One such is the Rocket Game Corner in Celadon City, which they use to make money out of giving away Pokémon as prizes. Giovanni's long term goal is world domination, but he's not in any hurry to achieve it, willing to make gradual advances to fulfill his dreams.
In the Kanto games, Giovanni is first encountered by the player character in the hideout under the game corner, where it becomes clear that he's running the show here. He commends the protagonist for making it to him and engages the protagonist in battle. After his loss, Giovanni is at first shocked, but quickly realizes that the protagonist raises their Pokemon with utmost care. Giovanni concludes that they will never understand his ambitions before vanishing.
Giovanni is next encountered at the Silph Company building. Team Rocket had been raiding their building in order to steal plans for the Master Ball. Team Rocket promised money and power to the employees that helped them, resulting in several Silph scientists joining Team Rocket. Giovanni is found on the top floor confronting the Silph president. Once again the protagonist battles Giovanni and wins. Giovanni is angry that his plans for the Silph Company have fallen apart, but retreats declaring that Team Rocket will never fall.
Fast forward to the final Gym. In a twist, it turns out that Giovanni is the eighth Gym Leader and has been throughout the whole game without anyone knowing. Giovanni has been recuperating after his loss at Silph, but willingly engages the protagonist in battle. He is defeated yet again, however this time he reacts with excitement from the battle. He gives the protagonist the Earth Badge and tells them to challenge the Pokémon League. Realizing that he can't face his underlings after this, Giovanni officially disbands Team Rocket and departs.
For the Johto games, Team Rocket resurrects itself and acts on its own without Giovanni, hoping to use the Goldenrod Radio Tower to bring him out of hiding. While Gold and Silver don't explain what Giovanni is doing, the Celebi event in the remakes reveal that after his loss, he decided to go train on his own with the hope of one day his organization would revive. He received the message sent by his executives and was planning on joining them to announce Team Rocket's resurrection. However a time traveling Johto protagonist arrived and defeated him in battle as the Johto protagonist of the current time defeated the executives. Realizing that he's not strong enough to revive Team Rocket, Giovanni vanishes again.
For a long time, we though that would be the last time we'd see Giovanni as an antagonist, but that was not so.
As revealed in Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, Giovanni revived Team Rocket as Team Rainbow Rocket, planning on using them to conquer multiple worlds using the Ultra Wormholes in Alola. Giovanni attacks Aether Paradise for their information and technology on other worlds to make an army of Ultra Beasts. To establish his takeover, Giovanni used the Ultra Wormholes to transform Lusamine's mansion into Team Rocket's Castle. To help him, Giovanni summoned team leaders from alternate universes where their respective evil teams won because their regional protagonists never confronted them. After the Alola protagonist defeats them, they confront Giovanni, who is brainwashing Lusamine into cooperating with him. The fact that a child is challenging him makes him feel nostalgic, so Giovanni goes through with the battle. Once defeated, Giovanni pulls Team Rainbow Rocket out of Aether Paradise, but declares the Team Rainbow Rocket will never fail. He is last seen warping away while wondering what world should he go after now.
Is he charming? Charismatic? Thinks on his feet?
Surprisingly yes. Because we only see Giovanni the perspective on one person in the Kanto games, we don't exactly see his plans or much of his personality. However it is clear that his subordinates respect him immensely. He has multiple business ventures operating for Team Rocket's business to keep running, and shutting down one branch does not destroy the organization. Hell, the fact that Giovanni has been Gym Leader all this time and no one found out is impressive in itself.
Giovanni may seem a bit low compared with other team leaders. However, the other evil teams had their plans banking on one goal that, once stopped, fell apart and wrecked the whole team. Giovanni intially never progresses as far as them, he's got multiple ways that his team functions, so if that plan is stopped, he just shifts focus to another one. Game corner stopped? Go to Silph. Silph stopped? Go to gym. The most of the other leaders give up on their goals. Giovanni never does. The fact that he's still out there after the Ultra games makes it clear that he's not stopping any time soon.
Personality wise, Giovanni has a sense of honor. He takes his role as Gym Leader seriously and gives out the Earth Badge upon defeat. When defeated, he willingly pulls retreat so that his team does not fall apart. There is a very good reason why his team respects him.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Team Rocket is a crime syndicate that has done cruel things to Pokémon, and Giovanni is their leader. All of these cruelties form the business that he has set up. Even Ghetsis thinks that the guy is pure evil with his goal of multiverse domination. However, deep down he is a pretty cool guy despite his evilness. Like I said, he has honor and enjoys battling for the sport.
Verdict?
I say personally. What do you guys think?
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Jul 19th 2018 at 12:06:52 PM
Goku Black
Giovanni
Probably the franchise most classic example.
Edited by miraculous on Jul 19th 2018 at 9:33:42 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I’m good with Giovanni.
The Unknown Unknown
Yes to ole Gio.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
to Gio
Giovanni
One other writeup I'd promised a while ago:
- Thief: Garrett, a former Keeper, is a master thief ostensibly out for himself who is continuously roped into world-shattering events against his will and defeats the enemies against him via sheer cleverness and audacity. Encountering the wicked Trickster Constantine, who seeks to consume the city, Garrett flawlessly orchestrates Constantine's destruction and escapes the vengeance of the Pagan faction. In the second game, Garrett learns of a plot by the evil Karas to annihilate all organic life and tricks Karas into destroying only himself. In the final game of the trilogy, Deadly Shadows, Garrett manages to destroy the power of a demonic beast from legend, the Hag and leaves her to the vengeance of the Keepers. While out for himself and occasionally ruthless, Garrett is always ready to show his enemies exactly why he is the best thief alive.
Crossposting here as Ambar was very active in this thread: Some people probably have realized it, but Ambar Son Of Deshar who did a lot of work on the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard tropes has been banned.
Edited by SeptimusHeap on Jul 19th 2018 at 7:41:54 PM
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Well that was...Interesting and ouch
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
I'm not meaning to be defiant or rude or anything, but is that level of information into a user's private issues...appropriate for a public venue?
Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 19th 2018 at 10:01:47 AM
The Unknown Unknown
That's, uh... Um. Yeah, let's just pay respects and move on, shall we?
OK, so I'm going to continue my proposal of Fire Emblem candidates. My next two come from the same game. These two DON'T work together unlike Sephiran and Zelgius, so they warrant separate EPs.
What's the work?
Another member of the Fire Emblem was in actuality the second game in the franchise that was remade not too long ago. It started off as Fire Emblem Gaiden and then becaome Fire Emblem: Shadows of Valentia. In this entry, two divine dragons, brother and sister, Duma and Mila shaped the continent of Valentia, one part each living out their teachings to the fullest. One half, Rigel, become strong and self-sustaining but were hardened by trials and tribulations. The other, Zofia, lived pleasurably and in bounty that also fell into decadence. And, so, we follow the dual protagonist Alm and Celica, who seem fated to unite the weary continent.
Who is the candidate? The character’s actions?
Our candidate is the primary villain of the game, Jedah of the Duma Faithful. Jedah is the merciless fanatic that heads the Duma Faithful, a religious order dedicated to Duma that is also the state church and sole religion of Rigel. He is also tied to the Regelian Empire. In the past, the leader before Jedah - Sage Halcyon - was a decent, morally upstanding man. However, its those same attributes that made Jedah exile Halcyon, believing him to be unworthy of being Duma's most discipline, take over the church, and reform it. Jedah also fathered three daughters - Hestia, Maria, and Sonya (last of whom is a playable character) - and sacrificed the former two to Duma.
Jedah makes sparse appearances up until Acts 4 and 5 where Jedah really starts to shine.
At this point, it's revealed Duma provided the Kingsfang for Rudolf to seal Mila and take her away. Jedah is aware of this fact and eagerly awaits Celica's imminent arrival. He lays the seeds of his trap by approaching Celica at Dead Man's Mire. Jedah is the one holding Mila now. He strike a bargain with Celica - who, I should mention, is really Prince Anthiese of Zofia - that she offer up her soul to Duma. Then, he'll release Mila back to the world. Duma and Mila are suffering from the madness that plagues dragonkind. With Celica's soul, Jedah hopes to restore Duma and put Mila back in her place to recreate the balance Valentia is used to. This will also have the effect of getting Alm out of war. Spoiler alert, it's a lie to lure Celica to his side. He leaves and tells Celica he awaits her real reply atop Duma Tower.
Except we encounter him a little earlier, at the Swamps of Duma. Celica states her intention of speaking with Mila first before worrying about Jedah. He's okay with that, but he's not okay with her friends being around since his "bargain" was with her alone. He intends to kill them for "trespassing on this holy place" and also claims he's simply "being cautious". Have Sonya talk to him during the battle, and you'll hear about the whole sacrificing-the-sisters-and-cursing-them-to-be-witches thing. Defeated or not, Jedah exits stage life, telling Celica to meet him at Duma Tower and cryptically namedrops Alm.
At Duma Tower, Jedah shows what happened to Mila—instead of at the top, she's at the bottom on Duma's altar. She turned herself to stone along with Falchion. So Celica finally comes clean that her soul in particular is needed to revert the disaster. Before everyone protests, Jedah warps her group away and tells Celica to wait... and watch the boy (Alm) suffer.
So, Alm does his thing and everything is revealed on his part. Celica is distraught to hear Alm is coming to slay Duma without Falchion, which mean he's beyond screwed. Therefore, she agrees to offer her soul willingly to Duma, much to Jedah's delight.
Oh, by the way, Jedah warped Celica's party to the basement that fills with powerful Terrors to be slaughtered.
Alm and his party work their way to the basement of Duma Tower. They too encounter Mila's state, and a pair of bars separate him from Celica. Jedah formally introduces himself to Alm and lets everyone mankind will return to the will of the gods... or, rather, an age of fear and chaos "cradled in Duma's shadow". So, yeah, screw Mila in his eyes.
After destroying Mila's petrified state, everything except for Mila's head and Falchion, Jedah makes good on his promise to offer up Celica's soul. When Alm goes to the remains of Mila's corpse, he encounters Celica as a witch. Jedah orders her to seize Alm so he too can offer another Brand-bearer to Duma. Meanwhile, Celica is begging Alm to kill her so nothing else bad comes to pass. Jedah just sits back and watches the marvelous renactment of Duma and Mila's struggling. But Mila reaches out to Alm, has him pick up an unbound Falchion to Jedah's surprise, and stab Celica. As inane as that sounds, it works out perfectly.
Celica is back, her party combines with Alm's, and everyone gathers for the final battle. Jedah rants and raves about Duma this and Duma that. He aides his precious god but is ultimately killed in the crossfire. Heck, he even brought his two daughters along. His final late is left ambiguous because it IS possible for the player to skip fighting him, but the story seems to continue assuming you did kill Jedah.
Charming? Charismatic? A good planner?
Jedah is a fantastic strategist who uses Flaw Exploitation wonderfully, him and his preying on Celica's duty-bound selflessness to get what he wants. As you will see in the next item, there is something genuine about his beliefs toward Duma. He's well aware of what may happen, but he sees beyond the forest — that, in the sorry state the world is in because of humans, they require the guidance of a god. Thus, you can interpret everything he does in the name of Duma, utmost and completely. He has a plan, sees the world for what it is, and sticks to it.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Yeah, I won't lie, Jedah does push the envelope considering how he sacrificed his own daughters to Duma. Although he does claim they did it willingly, but Sonya's rage makes one wonder. He demonstrates a ruthlessness in ensuring his god is revived that is unseen in other villains. While Jedah thinks what he's doing is better for the world, he does kick a lot of dogs to get what he wants, especially since he later reveals that he never intended to keep any promises he made to Celica to ensure her cooperation. Of course, you can easily construe that as Flaw Exploitation like I said earlier.
However, at the same time, it must be stated Jedah is a Well-Intentioned Extremist. He's sincere with his loyalty to Duma. His devotion to Duma is about more than just psychotic fanaticism, especially considering he's trying to cure the god's madness. That's why he needed Celica's soul the whole time. That crosses the line from mere religious obsession and into personal loyalty. Even in the final battle, Jedah rants to everyone — basically 'how DARE you stop Duma from saving this world!' His unwavering belief that Duma's teachings are the best thing for the world is clearly genuine, mitigating some of his more heinous acts.
Conclusion?
Indeed, a bastard, but an effective one.
Edited by erazor0707 on Jul 19th 2018 at 10:06:02 AM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Not usually, but since Ambar was quite high profile here we figured that a public announcement would do good. Plus we've noticed that unexplained prominent bans tend to kick up rumour mills and drama themselves.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Yes to Giovanni and as for whatever went down with Ambar can we please just go on without going into details of PMs and behaviour on other threads.
Edit: On a happier not yes to Jedah.
Edited by 43110 on Jul 19th 2018 at 1:08:07 PM
It's not that I'm trying to be difficult, but I don't think that level of detail is honestly necessary. Telling us they're banned for the time being is one thing, but I'm earnestly uncomfortable hearing all about that, particularly from PM stuff.
Yes to Jedah, btw.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
, Yea...I'll agree with it.
And also to Jedah I guess. I think you'll going to propose Berkut? @erazor0707
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Jul 20th 2018 at 12:07:16 AM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Oh hell yes to Zeref! If people said that Future Rouge could be an MB, why not Zeref? I have a feeling that he is a great example of an MB from the get go in my opinion.
@Lightysnake Also for Shonen proposal... I've been thinking that you will propose Leuvis from the Promised Neverland and Sinbad from Magi at a later future
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."