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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Threedogs123 Since: Jul, 2020
#25451: Aug 16th 2020 at 11:30:51 PM

I'm a relatively new troper, but I have been reading the MB trope, and I think that the Anthony Hopkins version of Hannibal Lector should count:

Who is Hannibal Lector? A cannibalistic serial killer who serves as the overarching antagonist of the films The Silence of the Lambs, Hannibal, Red Dragon, and Hannibal Rising. He is surprisingly charismatic and falls into the category of "Love to hate". He has a very tragic background, having been forced to eat his sister's remains by the men who killed her. After taking his revenge on the men, he became a cannibalistic serial killer. Part of the charm to him was that he didn't kill randomly, only going after those who had wronged him in someway. He was very affable and displayed standards by disfiguring a child molester. He showed his great intelligence by being a doctor and knowing several different languages, and he escaped prison by cutting off a guard's face, hiding his body, and wearing his face to pose as the attacked guard. He is never truly defeated, as his last chronological appearance has him escape by cutting off his hand. He's also so influential that he convinced a man to swallow his own tongue.

Intelligent? He's a doctor, a skilled cook, knows several different languages, and is a skilled killer.

A bastard? He's a cannibalistic serial killer.

Not too evil? He loved his sister, mostly targets bad people, and hates pedophiles.

Thinks on his feet? He is quick to escape deadly situations, which is especially seen in "Rising".

Charismatic? He's one of the best examples of Affably Evil. His charm was so prolific that Hopkins got an award for the first film despite only having 16 minutes of screen time.

Competition? Both of the films he is the central lead of feature villains far worse than him. A child molester and a Nazi sympathiser.

Edited by Threedogs123 on Aug 16th 2020 at 11:36:14 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#25453: Aug 16th 2020 at 11:43:44 PM

I'll need to think on Dr. Lecter....given I did the TV series one where he can be more vile, it'd be hypocritical of me to say no. It's just...that one scene where he escapes in Silence of the Lambs is genuinely so nightmarish and how he just transforms into something so savage when he attacks the officers....granted the Lecter on the show had his moments, too

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#25454: Aug 17th 2020 at 12:01:13 AM

Eh. I think I can hand him a [tup]. Guy's a serious bastard for sure, but I think he's just on the line.

Yeah, no, after a little thought, I fully concede that I was heavily overthinking things with Hondo. I'm not sure where the idea got in my head or why I was so insistent on it. My bad.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Aug 17th 2020 at 12:01:28 PM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#25455: Aug 17th 2020 at 12:23:48 AM

I think it hat I can give Movie Lecter a [tup]

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
hittheassassin Since: Jan, 2018 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
#25456: Aug 17th 2020 at 1:10:07 AM

[tup] to Lecter and to the Music Meister, who's here to settle the score!

With Bartholomew Roberts given the [tup], I've got a quote by him that I'd like to propose: a famous speech that he gives which actually reportedly did in real life.

"In honest service there are thin commons, low wages, and hard labour. Yet as gentlemen of fortune we enjoy plenty and satisfaction, pleasure and ease, liberty and power... so what man with a sensible mind would choose the former life, when the only hazard we pirates run is a sour look from those without strength or splendour! Now, I have been among you six weeks, and in that time I have adopted your outlook as my own, and with so fierce a conviction that it may frighten you to see your passions reflected from me in a stark a light. But... if it's a captain you see in me now, aye then... I'll be your bloody captain! For I have dipped my hands in muddied waters, and withdrawing them find 'tis better to be a commander than a common man!"
Bartholomew Roberts, Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag

Edited by hittheassassin on Aug 17th 2020 at 4:19:27 PM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#25458: Aug 17th 2020 at 2:01:36 AM

[up][up] I like that quote.

Reminds me to when I previously mentioned finding it interesting that two Sages (Roberts and Germain) end up counting as magnificent bastards yet Juno who use to count but now doesn't despite who despite having created those two as well as other Sages.

Speaking of such I notice a pattern about this for grand scheming Big Bads in general, such as Palpatine, Black Zestu, Sosuke Aizen, Father, Darkseid, and Juno who orchestrates and manipulates everything in there respective series yet don't seem to count, despite magnificent bastard being usually know for chess masters and master manipulators.

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 17th 2020 at 12:40:54 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#25459: Aug 17th 2020 at 2:34:45 AM

A resounding [tup] for Movie Lecter.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#25460: Aug 17th 2020 at 4:53:21 AM

Yes to Ulmeyda, Music Meister, and Lector.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#25461: Aug 17th 2020 at 5:35:37 AM

[tup] Lecter.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#25462: Aug 17th 2020 at 5:49:48 AM

Yes to Music Meister and Movie!Lector. Two I am surprised weren't already up. Meister the first for Neil Patrick Harris?

Edited by Bullman on Aug 17th 2020 at 7:53:48 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#25463: Aug 17th 2020 at 6:21:22 AM

[tup]uldemya, The Music Meister sings the song that the world wants to hear (oh man love that dude), lecter

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#25464: Aug 17th 2020 at 7:02:41 AM

[tup]Music Meister, Lecter.

I feel like that effortpost could have been a bit more substantial but if other people are ok with it I don't see why not.

[down]Yes that is true. In the future just have more detail. But also don't go in the direction of my first EP which had too much detail.

Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 17th 2020 at 10:10:13 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#25465: Aug 17th 2020 at 7:07:01 AM

It's his first time doing this, tbf.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#25466: Aug 17th 2020 at 7:45:39 AM

Yes to the Music Meister and film Lector (welcome to the thread!) I also like hit’s Roberts quote.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#25467: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:30:19 AM

[tup] Music Meister and Hannibal Lecter.

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Aug 17th 2020 at 1:06:55 PM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#25468: Aug 17th 2020 at 9:21:27 AM

Oh 100% [tup] to Lecter! One of the best film characters of all-time!

Bull and I have been going over some candidates he’ll be bringing in soon. Looking forward to those.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 17th 2020 at 9:29:14 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#25469: Aug 17th 2020 at 9:29:50 AM

Idk if I’d go quite that far. While I find myself saying yes overall he’s almost a Johan situation where he can be so creepy the Creepy Awesome factor is nearly lost. The emphasis on chowing on an innocent nurse and how nuts he is comes pretty damn close to pushing him too far and compromising his magnificence imo.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#25470: Aug 17th 2020 at 9:33:00 AM

[up]Many of Lecter’s ethics and his care for Starling are definitely brought more front and center though and that makes him very identifiable for someone who’s a cannibalistic serial killer. Also, there’s the fact that Lecter always retains and regains his calm and civil demeanor.

There is the point when he provides Dollarhyde with Graham’s home address and nearly gets his family killed. That said, the TV one did that too.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 17th 2020 at 9:37:43 AM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#25471: Aug 17th 2020 at 9:35:56 AM

As I said, I think Lecter is right on the line for this. If he were just a bit more disturbing and lacked some of his standards I'd give him a "no." He's a creepy bastard, but I think he's juuuuust barely in the right spot. That said, I've never been the greatest when it comes to assessment.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Aug 17th 2020 at 9:39:04 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#25472: Aug 17th 2020 at 9:43:44 AM

I think it's one of the cases where it's also helped by the fact he ends up going against guys like Verger and Grutas too who are much, much, much worse.

Edited by miraculous on Aug 17th 2020 at 9:43:58 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#25473: Aug 17th 2020 at 9:47:24 AM

Riley's right, this is just on the cusp and I say that as someone who's done a litany of controversial candidates. A lot like Scirocco, Billy, Stillwell, Sinclair, Lordgenome or Squealer, they're coming close to doing something too awful to count anymore, even if their various circumstances lift them from being totally damned by their actions. He's certainly saved by sharing a universe with people even more depraved and I certainly wouldn't be saying yes if this was an attempt at a similar character who was a Complete Monster being proposed.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#25474: Aug 17th 2020 at 10:08:31 AM

[tup] to the Music Meister and Movie!Lecter.

To continue this line of thought, I think a villain with significant unsavory qualities can qualify if they also have sympathetic qualities, whereas a villain without sympathetic qualities can qualify if they also lack unsavory qualities.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#25475: Aug 17th 2020 at 10:14:37 AM

Correct, it's a balancing act here. Similarly we wouldn't approve someone who ostensibly meets all the criteria but the work just makes them a Villain Sue who's so much smarter than everyone else there's no challenge.


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