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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#25252: Aug 15th 2020 at 2:21:23 AM

[tup]Fox

Since they seem to be approved, here are the writeups:

Judge Dredd: Mega-City Zero:

Main Run: Judge Berger is daughter of two botanists, who survived through the events of Necropolis, when Dark Judges took over Mega-City One and started massacre people by millions. Withnessing her parents die, Berger saw everything as a proof that the Justice System was flawed and needs to be fixed. Becoming a Judge, Berger tried everything she can to try to fix the system and reduce the crime rate, only for her ideas to be constantly rejected, which leads to her coming across the drug named "Green" and modifying it, sneaking it inside the Justice Department and unleashing it upon the city, tranforming the entire Mega-City One into grass and merging the minds of all its inhabitans, including herself, with everyone being helpless to stop her. Taking full control of the "Green" and building her "perfect world" there, where crime was near nonexistant and everyone was happy, Berger later earns a full trust of Lolo, while later dominating Dredd upon meeting him and unleashing the copies of his rouge gallery to show him how chaotic was the "old" world.

Annual: The Red Judges: Chief Judge Goodman is the head of the Justice Department during the past, where the Justice System was only started to be implimented. Summoning the newest Judge Estevez, he leads the squad of Red Judges through him to wipe out all the resistance to the system. As Red Judges took heavy losses, but manage to succeed in their goal, Goodman then sended them to the Decompress, while then revealing to Estevez that he knew about his criminal past and orders him to go with the Red Judges, seemengly to transport criminals to titan, while in reality he was ordered to blow up the place and annihilate the Red Judges completely, with all the ciminals and staff being the "collateral damage". As soon as it was over, Goodman wipes out any mention of Estevez and Red Judges from the database, effectively erasing the Red Judges from history.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Aug 15th 2020 at 12:23:53 PM

TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#25253: Aug 15th 2020 at 2:31:31 AM

[tup] Elaith, Berger, Junko, Goodman, Fox and Morgan

I wonder, does anyone think Beldam from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door count? People might've forgotten, but she was actually the true mastermind behind everything, manipulating Grodus to summon the Shadow Queen as part of her orders and does pull a Face–Heel Turn after the end similar to Magilor from Kirby.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#25254: Aug 15th 2020 at 2:46:34 AM

[up] if you feel like she qualifies EP her

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#25255: Aug 15th 2020 at 5:21:33 AM

[up][up] I recall Beldam being unbearably verbally abusive to her sister Vivian (and later Doopliss) for virtually no reason, to the point where she just comes across as being a huge ass and nothing else. This isn't helped by the fact that Vivian is allegedly a crossdresser/transgender in the Japanese version and part of the reason why Beldam was so mean to her is because she's transphobic.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#25256: Aug 15th 2020 at 5:46:59 AM

[tup]Morgan le fey

Classic one

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#25257: Aug 15th 2020 at 5:55:14 AM

[up][up] That's true, but after the Shadow Queen, Beldam was changing her ways, even apologizing to Vivian.

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#25258: Aug 15th 2020 at 6:10:40 AM

Yeah I have to agree, I feel Beldam was too much of a bully. And as stated she definitely cannot count in the Japanese version. Didn't really see her as charming, just a jerk.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#25260: Aug 15th 2020 at 6:26:02 AM

[tup]Morgan.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#25261: Aug 15th 2020 at 7:54:00 AM

[tup] to The Spectre, the Green Knight, Junko, Chief Judge Goodman, the Fox and Morgan Le Fay (agreed, its always good when a true classic qualifies).

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#25262: Aug 15th 2020 at 8:29:39 AM

Yes to Morgan and hard no to Beldam... she's a smug jackass in both versions and outright transphobic in the Japanese one.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#25263: Aug 15th 2020 at 10:21:50 AM

[tup] to the Fox.

Got an EP coming today once it’s ready.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#25264: Aug 15th 2020 at 10:22:51 AM

[tup] Morgan.

Bedlam is manipulative, but she’s an utter transphobic asshole. There might be a candidate in the Paper Mario series, but it needs to be searched for.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#25265: Aug 15th 2020 at 10:33:07 AM

Happy yea to le Fay. One more DND example right now, the Shadow Dragon Aurgloroasa:

Who is Aurgloroasa?

Known as the Sibilant Shade, Aurgloroasa is an evil dragon obsessed with research into death, undeath, necromancy. A servant of the draonic god of death, Null, Aurgloroasa wishes to become his consort. Aurgloroasa began life as a very elusive dragon, evading any would-be heroes to keep it that way.

When her lair was penetrated by dwarf miners, she killed them and made it appear as a cave-in. Fascinated by their city of Thunderholme, she began to spy on it for twelve years, using their high priest Dagan as a puppet by magically whispering to him...which gave her the name 'Sibilant Shade.' Luring him into building a great temple and summoning her, she proceeded to destroy the city to kill every dwarf and raise them as undead as a sacrifice to Null, consecrating it to her god.

After this, Aurgloroasa took to raiding. To keep her low profile, she did this in the forms of other dragons to get dragon slayers sent after them instead. She became a figure of infamy in draconic communities, using her guile and wicked talent to kill other dragons and claim their hordes for her own while orchestrating merchant wars under mortal guises.

She later approached the Cult of the Dragon...now, the Cult is a group of dragon worshiping nutjobs who seek to transform dragons into dracoliche as a holy rite. Already wanting this, Aurglorasa left clues for them to 'seek her out.' She pretended to be reluctant and extorted massive amounts of gold from them before agreeing to undergo the lichdom process...but bribed, threatened and tricked enough cultists so that she wouldn't be bound to the cult. In other words? She was not controlled by them at all. She played a role in their plots, but played her own game, directing and sabotaging them when appropriate.

One of her tricks? Manipulate an adventure into bringing others against her, ambush them and sacrifice them to Null. When the Cult's leader fell, Aurglorasa immediately positioned herself to take over one region of the Cult and did so, with two other Dracoliches, where she remains in control...even if the alliance shows signs of fraying...

How's she operate?

See all that above? She's a genius. She pulls off manipulations, gambits, clever tricks, etc. on the regular. Literally every bit of lore on her is her fooling someone or screwing them over to get her ends achieved. She manipulates an entire city, adventurers, the Cult of the Dragon...she's good at what she does, with no indication she's ever succumbed to a breakdown.

Is she a bastard? too mcuh?

She's an evil dragon who massacred a city to raise them a the undead, helps an evil cult, kills people on the regular. Aurglorasa, TBH, has no real redeeming qualities save for her devotion to Null and even that is based about raising herself to godhood. The lady has ambition, that's for sure. Other than that, though, she never goes over and above in evil. she wipes out a city as a religious sacrifice, but usually she's content to play people from the shadows. For a Chaotic Evil dragon, this is pretty notably.

Conclusion?

I'd give her a yea for flair alone. She's good.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#25266: Aug 15th 2020 at 10:35:22 AM

[tup]Aurgloroasa

Dragon mbs are just as cool as cms.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#25267: Aug 15th 2020 at 10:44:40 AM

Hmm... emphasis seems to be in the right place and as nasty as her crimes are, she's probably saved by sharing a setting with many worse than her. I'm leaning yes.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#25268: Aug 15th 2020 at 11:13:49 AM

I don't follow the Complete Monster thread that closely, but just reading the Monster entries on Dungeons and Dragons, she doesn't feel like anywhere near close to as bad as she could be to be disqualifying. [tup]Aurglorasa.

My writeup:

The Gingerbread Man: A classic of American children's literature, the Gingerbread Man runs as fast as he can, until he meets the fox. Either the fox feigns hard of hearing or offers to ferry him over a river while guiding him towards his head. Either way he manages to trick the Gingerbread Man into getting close to his snout, before he eats him. Often American children's first exposure to a Magnificent Bastard, the fox shows that you don't need to outfight a hero, sometimes you can outwit them.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#25269: Aug 15th 2020 at 11:17:54 AM

Thanks. Btw Vile does this Dredd stuff need to go under the 2000 AD tree? Idk the setting.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#25270: Aug 15th 2020 at 11:31:26 AM

Btw could the two tmnt entries in MagnificentBastard.Comic Books be grouped together under a franchise header ?

Seems reasonable. Btw did we discuss anyone from the 2012 series. I was thinking of doing tiger claw so was curious if anyone whose seen it as well thinks ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#25271: Aug 15th 2020 at 11:41:31 AM

I haven't kept track of the TMNT stuff we've done but I've got no issue with making a tree.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#25273: Aug 15th 2020 at 12:21:53 PM

For Aurglorasa, put her at the end:

  • Elaith Craulnober, known as The Serpent, is a crimelord in Waterdeep who was once an elven noble of Evermeet. Upon rejection by his ancestral Moonblade, Elaith left his fiancee, Princess Amnestria and became a rogue, finding liberation in his new freedom. With manipulation, brilliance and ruthlessness, Elaith rose to become the lord of Waterdeep's underworld. Later manipulating and assisting Amnestria's half-human daughter Arilyn and her companion Danilo, Elaith assists in foiling a plot against Evermeet's ruling family, later conducting another scheme to obtain an artifact to awaken his Moonblade, which finally responds for his selfless love to his baby daughter.
  • 'The Sibilant Shade,' Aurgloroasa, is a powerful shadow dragon and devotee of the draconic death god Null. Intending on one day elevating herself to be Null's consort, Aurgloroasa infiltrated the city of Thunderholme, manipulating the dwarves into building a temple for her to appear in, whereupon she destroyed the city, raised all dwarves as undead and consecrated it to Null. for her raids, Aurgloroasa disguised herself as other dragons to make them take the blame, constantly fooling adventurers and eliminating rivals. Allowing the Cult of the Dragon to "find" her via laid clues, she allowed them to "convince" her to become a dracolich but without the usual method of control, later taking over a chunk of the remnants of the organization while operating from the shadows.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010

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