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Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#25226: Aug 14th 2020 at 5:14:24 PM

Absolutely no to Lucy. You might as well propose Darren Cross if she goes up.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#25227: Aug 14th 2020 at 5:35:31 PM

Another candidate from Judge Dredd: Mega-City Zero, this time from the Annual, which features 3 short stories (each consists of little more than 10 pages) and my candidate is from one of them, called "The Red Judges"

Who is Chief Judge Goodman?

The story takes place many years before the events of the comic, soon after the Justice System only started to be implimented to society. Chief Judge Goodman was the head of the Justice Department at the time, who summoned the newest Judge, named Estevez, who passed all tests, to himself and sended him on a special mission to watch over and pass over his commands to the Red Judges, the Judges who were specifically created to fight off the democratic sympathizers and rebels, after Atomic Wars, and report to him everything. The Red Judges were tasked by Goodman to track down and kill off all the rebels to Judge System. As Estevez follows the Red Judges, banter with them, reports everything to Goodman and puts a stop to some of the extreme actions of one of their members, the Red Judges managed to finish their work, killing off all the significant resistance, although suffering heavy losses as well, with one of the members of the group, revealing himself a war hungry traitor, who killed their leader and give the rebels their positions, solely so he could drive them out and kill them all.

After that the remaining Red Judges arrived to the applause of the crowd and Goodman sended them to serve their last mission at Decompress, after which Estevez reported to Goodman, revealing that everything was orchestrated by him and that Red Judges didn't suspected a thing. Goodman congratulated Estevez on his ability to "look in the Eye and lie" and then told him that he knows about his criminal past, as Estevez killed 62 Judges several years ago. Goodman told Estevez that he can't have his Judges be criminals and that he must "pay for his crimes too". With that said, Goodman sended Estevezs with the Red Judges to escort 400 prisoners to the estabilished colony on Titan, which in reality was a set for them to be killed, as clearly unpleased Estevez blowed the whole place to bits, killing everyone there along with the Red Judges. In the last page, Goodman give command to computer to delete all information about Judge Estevez, his mission and the Red Judges, instead replacing it with "All personnel were lost. A lifetime of Hard Labor for 411 criminals", after which he removed the Chief Judge Access to the file, making it completely unaccesable and effectively removing the existance of Red Judges from history, as they were not needed anymore.

Magnificent (Charming, Charismatic, Intelligent, etc.)?

For a 10 page story (all of which are linked in the EP), i think Goodman showcased himself as smart and capable enough with orchestrating the plot of having Red Judges destroy the rebellion to Justice System regime and then getting rid of them, as they became not needed anymore, and removing the fact of their existance from history to let them be forgotten too (comic makes it clear at the end that it was all Goodman's plan), while everyone else (aside from Estevez, who was tasked with the mission) remaining completely unaware until the very last moment. The fact that he has enough of manipulator skills to convince Estevez to sacrifice himself without any fuss also stands out, since aside from being a bit angry, Estevez didn't objected Goodman's order.

Bastard? Not too much of one?

Well, he assist the complete take over of the Justice System regime, has the Red Judges kill off all the rebels to it and then gets rid of the Red Judges too, as well as sending Estevez to die and killing off the hundreds of personell and criminals as a "collateral damage". That said he is living in the world where mass murder is common, to the point that thousands of deaths would not mean a thing to making the villain stand out here and he wasn't shown to be sadistic or petty during the whole thing, as all his actions served to remove the "unneded" elements from the Justice System, while making sure that Justice Department would have complete control over Mega-City.

Conclusion?

What do you think?

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Aug 14th 2020 at 3:39:20 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#25228: Aug 14th 2020 at 6:09:25 PM

Leaning yeah on Junko (agency doesn't actually have a whole lot of bearing here and I've done multiple candidates who are only evil because their nature dictates they be so) and yes to Goodman as well.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#25229: Aug 14th 2020 at 6:11:13 PM

Likewise on Junko and Goodman

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#25231: Aug 14th 2020 at 6:23:52 PM

[tup] to Junko and Goodman

Anyone else want to vote for Lucy Stillman?

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#25232: Aug 14th 2020 at 6:26:00 PM

[tup] to Junko

[tdown] to Lucy

Edited by Libraryseraph on Aug 14th 2020 at 9:26:06 AM

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#25233: Aug 14th 2020 at 6:38:02 PM

[tup]Junko, Goodman.

I've been thinking would the fox from The Gingerbread Man count? I feel like he has enough cunning in a children's story, either feigning deafness, or tricking the gingerbread man into riding on his back in water and getting him drawn closer to his mouth. That's enough cunning and charm for me. It's heavily dependent on the story though, but that's the basic gist. Part of my reticence is I generally abstain on songs (similar length).

Edited by jjjj2 on Aug 14th 2020 at 9:38:03 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#25234: Aug 14th 2020 at 6:42:03 PM

Missed quite a few candidates today.

[tup] The Specter, the Green Knight, Junko, and Goodman.

[tdown] Lucy.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#25235: Aug 14th 2020 at 6:49:54 PM

Honestly J that’s not a bad suggestion at all from my recollection and looking into it would be pretty fast if you do wanna go for it.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#25236: Aug 14th 2020 at 6:54:55 PM

[up][up][up] I’d love to see the fox get posted. For a song villain he seems quite cunning

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 14th 2020 at 3:56:35 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#25237: Aug 14th 2020 at 6:56:57 PM

Not a song, children's fairytale (although I'm sure there have been songs written about it).

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#25238: Aug 14th 2020 at 7:04:45 PM

I mean since foxes are typically presented as being cunning in fairy tales, I don't see why not.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#25239: Aug 14th 2020 at 7:12:37 PM

Oh I would totally be down to see the fox being discussed.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#25240: Aug 14th 2020 at 7:48:38 PM

What's the work?

Alright so a classic of American children's literature: The Gingerbread Man

The Gingerbread Man is a tale in which a gingerbread cookie is brought to life (looking like a man). It then takes off running not wanting to be eaten. In most versions it outruns it's bakers and numerous farm animals, exclaiming:

Run, run, run, as fast as you can!
You can't catch me, I'm the gingerbread man!

Finally it comes across our potential keeper: the fox. Generally one of two things happen.

It either a) announces to the fox that it's outrun everyone else. The fox feigns deafness, saying "I can't hear you." Doing this a number of times, the gingerbread man gets too close trying to shout his catchphrase and the fox is able to eat it.

Or b) it comes across a stream and the fox offers to ferry it across. The gingerbread man climbs on its back. The fox keeps telling the gingerbread man that he's getting tired so he should move towards his snout. The gingerbread man keeps doing so until eventually on top of the snout, at which point the fox flips him up and eats him. I might be misremembering this, but I even remember one version where fox feigns drowning and the gingerbread man has no choice but to go to his snout.

How do his actions show he is a Magnificent Bastard?

Everyone else in the story tries to chase the Gingerbread man down, but the fox is the only one who outwits him. This provides his charm as well. As for bastardry, he is trying to eat a sentient being, but everyone else trying to do that, and it's a lighthearted children's story, so that's obviously not too bad.

Mitigating factors

This is a tale in the public domain, so there are versions where the Gingerbread man gets away. The most common one's end with him being eaten though. The first version of this story with a gingerbread man just had the fox outrunning him (so not this trope). But the most common versions end with the fox outwitting him.

Verdict?

I generally abstain on stories of such short length, but I assume most people are going to [tup]. What I do find interesting is this is most american/canadian children's first exposure to a Magnificent Bastard.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#25243: Aug 14th 2020 at 8:20:17 PM

[tup] Elaith, Berger, Spectre, Junko, Goodman and Fox

[tdown] Lucy

Another quote:

"Your powerful GDI forces have been emasculated, and you yourself are a killer of children! Now of course it's not true, but, the world only believes what the media tells them to believe... and I tell the media what to believe, it's really quite simple."

Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Aug 14th 2020 at 8:20:59 AM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#25244: Aug 14th 2020 at 8:33:44 PM

[tup] Elaith, Berger, Junko, Goodman and Fox.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Aug 14th 2020 at 8:35:33 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#25247: Aug 14th 2020 at 11:10:45 PM

What's the work?

Unlike my EP with the Green Knight, I shall broaden my scope to discuss the nucleus of Arthurian legend. One of the most popular and enduring legends and medieval literature, Arthurian mythos tells of a perfect king, who may or may not be based on a real-life figure, who helped Briton in times of turmoil. Arthur is the rightful heir to the throne in most versions of the mythos, who Merlin took from his father, the previous king Uther Pendragon, to be raised elsewhere. He becomes king when he pulls out a sword from a stone which only the rightful king could do. He then brings order to the land by defeating his rivals and other threats — and then tries his best to be a good ruler, assembling the Knights of the Round Table to serve as paragons of chivalry. His rule is ultimately undone by the plots and shortcomings of his own followers and family.

Who is the candidate? The character’s actions?

Morgan(a) Le Fay, the Trope Codifier in medieval literature for Evil Sorceress. In a bit of Characterization Marches On, her earliest appearance in Geoffrey's Vita Merlini (Life of Merlin), "Morgen" was the chief of the healers of Avalon. Chrétien and other early author would use this relatively benevolent depiction of her.

Later writers during French prose cycles would mold Morgan into the treacherous women she's most famous for. In these works, she subversively works to take over Arthur's throne through her mostly harmful magic and scheming, including manipulating men. Most of the time, Morgan's magic arts correspond with these of Merlin's and the Lady of the Lake's, featuring shapeshifting, illusion, and sleeping spells. In fact, her "Le Fay" moniker originates from the knowledge of magic she learned from nuns—as stated in the Old French poem Merlin.

Stories evolved to accept this new interpretation of Morgan. According the narrative, Morgan is the youngest of the daughters of Igraine and Gorlois, the Duke of Cornwall. After completion of her studies, where she's described as "wonderfully adept" and "working hard all the time," Morgan later became a queen and wife to King Urien . Unhappy with her husband, Morgan is caught in an affair with her lover Guiomar by Arthur's newly married wife, Queen Guinevere. To prevent the loss of honor, and in some interpretations, to protect her husband since Morgan is a rival in political power, Guinevere breaks their relationship. This begins the feud between the ladies, and it is why Morgan leaves Camelot in pursuit of greater power.

Suite du Merlin entails probably her most wicked machination. To backtrack, two brothers, Sir Damas and Sir Ontzlake had become mortal enemies. The younger offered to resolve their differences in combat, but the latter always refused, preferring to elect another knight to fight for him. Unfortunately, Damas was too hated ever to find such a knight. So Morgan sends out a fake damsel came to Arthur with an offer from Damas that he and his fellow-prisoners would be freed if he would take on the fight, to which Arthur agreed.

At the same time, she arranged for a dwarf came to Sir Accolon to remind him of his earlier (secret) promise to fight an unspecified knight whenever she chose the moment. Accolon would bring her the knight’s head and Morgan Le Fay would become Queen. And now was the moment. The dwarf gave him Excalibur and the scabbard, and Accolon made himself ready for combat, on behalf, as it turned out, of Sir Ontzlake against his brother. As Arthur in turn readied himself another damsel came, once again sent by Morgan, and gave him a sword like Excalibur and its scabbard. Too bad he never realized they were nothing more than poor replicas.

In the meantime, Morgan attempted to kill Urien in his sleep, confident of Accolon’s success. Urien is saved at the last moment by the intervention of Uwaine, his son. Her response varies: Either she pleads she had been momentarily possessed of the devil and promises to abandon her wicked ways, or Uwaine demands she leave Camelot and never return. Regardless, she escapes the attempted assassination unharmed.

Arthur kills Accolon in combat, and Morgan—enraged by her lover's death—rides to the nunnery where Arthur was recovering from his wounds and tried to steal back the real Excalibur and scabbard while he slept, but was only able to take the scabbard because the sword was in his hand. When Arthur awoke he set off with Sir Ontzlake in pursuit of Morgan, but she cast the scabbard into a deep lake. She then used her shape-changing powers to disguise herself and her entourage as standing stones, making Arthur believe she had been punished by God. To thwart any reprisal by Arthur, and one last parting shot from her, Morgan sends out another damsel to give him a rich mantle embellished with precious stones. But the mantle is laced with poison. Thankfully, Nimue, the Lady of the Lake intervened to save Arthur.

Towards the "end" of the mythos, catalogued in La Mort le Roi Artu (The Death of King Arthur) — no, not the book written by Thomas Malory for your information — the court appears to have thought Morgan Le Fay dead, until King Arthur came across her residence while out hunting one day, and the two were reconciled. Finally, the affair between Lancelot and Guinevere is outed to Arty, which begins the fabled rift in the Round Table. Morgan is among the black-hooded ladies who take the dying Arthur to his final rest and possible revival in Avalon. Generally speaking in terms of "canon," that's about the last we see of her.

Magnificent (Charming, Charismatic, Intelligence, etc.)? Why or why not?

Sometimes The Woman Behind the Man, sometimes a Trickster Mentor, almost always an Evil Sorcerer and Lady of Black Magic. She's a potent witch, and almost always portrayed as a beautiful lady garbed in regal dresses. But no matter the variances, the underlying depictions of Morgan la Fey in Arthurian mythos tell of a scheming and crafty person.

For one, there is her ruse is Suite where she had layer upon layer of plans to get Arthur and Urien slain. When that crumbles, she has to play a little speed chess to get herself out of certain execution, including petrifying herself or convincingly lie to Uwaine. Morgan also uses her skills in dealing with various of Arthur's Knights of the Round Table, especially the greatest of them all, Lancelot, whom she alternately tries to seduce and to expose as Guinevere's adulterous lover, often trying to take advantage of his honor code. In one notable instance, the prose Tristan, Morgan secretly sends an enchanted drinking horn meant to oust Guinevere, but in an unforeseen twist of fate, it exposes Iseult instead.

I must also mention that Morgan's shift from benevolent healer with a rank in a court of knights to evil sorceress and temptress reeks of Values Dissonance... This is Medieval Europe after all. So, her antipathy was sometimes used as a cautionary tale and... Yeeeeeah.

Bastard? Not too much of one?

Yep! I deign to say Morgan is the closest Arthurian legend has to a Big Bad. She's the greatest enemy of Arthur, scheming to usurp his throne, indirectly becoming an instrument of his death. She uses dark magic and trickery to manipulate and endanger men and women alike. Causes a lot of ruin, tries to have Arthur killed many times over, does everything she can to spite Guienivere, and in fact indirectly causes the ultimate death of Arthur by chucking Excalibur's scabbard in a lake.

However, Morgan eventually reconciles with Arthur, retaining her original role of taking him on his final journey to Avalon. Some texts, even during the height of her attempts at ruining the Round Table, give her a friend in Queen Sebile who she often practiced magic with. She commits an act of atonement, and one of her final notable acts is saving Arthur's knight named Manassen from certain death and enables him to kill his captor when she learns Accolon was Manessen's cousin.

Competition?

Arthurian legend depicts many, many villains and antagonists. Other than Mordred, Morgan is the Breakout Villain of the mythos, and she stands heads and shoulders above all other potentials.

Conclusion?

Keeper. Don't be surprised if more versions of her come through the thread.

Edited by erazor0707 on Aug 14th 2020 at 2:17:24 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#25248: Aug 14th 2020 at 11:18:54 PM

[tup]Green Knight, Junko, and Goodman.

[tdown] Lucy.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#25249: Aug 14th 2020 at 11:37:46 PM

Yes to Junko, Goodman, the fox, and the OG Morgan Le Fay (I love it when a classic bad guy comes through here). I'll lean yeah on the Kane quote.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature

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