During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Not to mention her sexually predatory behavior towards Ed.
Silver acknowledged that in their initial post. J and I are covering the other aspects that keep her off.
Oh, right. Derp.
Lord of Hell
Yes to Lust.
And here she is:
- This version of the Homunculus Lust retains her devious, manipulative personality while gaining an extended, sympathetic backstory. Created when a man attempted to bring back his dead lover, Lusts operates with a devotion to becoming human and strings along alchemists in the hopes one will create a Philosopher's Stone for her to do so. Nearly succeeding with hero Edward "Ed" Elric, Lust betrays Dante to assist Scar in the creation of the Stone, hoping to use it on herself. After being released from captivity by Dante to hunt down Ed, Lust betrays her master to assist the boy, using her own knowledge of alchemy to nearly kill fellow Homunculi Wrath and Sloth and even when she herself is mortally wounded, gracefully and philosophically ponders her nature before passing.
Also I've got a nice picture of Kimblee betraying Drachma for the blood circle to use but the image uploader doesn't like me right now for some reason.
Goku Black
The site seems to be a bit glitchy still it seems.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Oh well, one in the pocket for when it's okay.
If I had to guess who the other two candidates are, I would say they are Ashleigh from The Sacred Star of Milos and Lust from the live action film.
Correct, I'm checking out 2017!Lust now and Kylo's going to take a look at Sacred Star.
May god have mercy on your soul 43. Ok exaggeration there, but I've heard the movie is not good.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Trust me, that prayer is appreciated.
Goku Black
Uh it's a live action adaption of an anime/manga. The bar was always going to be low.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Unknown Unknown
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Caesar and 2003 Lust.
I'll have another candidate myself by tonight. Have to reread some stuff just to make sure.
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
to 2003 Lust
The wifi here sucks
yes to 2003 Lust, to be fair to the movie, I found it more dull than anything which I will take over the death note film any day.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to 2003!Lust there, great work, 43!
The FMA and JoJo pages look great! I know I had made a description for the JoJo page a few dozen posts back here, but if we like the one currently there, that one works too!
Edited by Ravok on Aug 12th 2020 at 1:52:42 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Whoops, I thought the line there was the one you had done. We all seemed to like it so I put it back.
Do you think this might work for a quote?
I prefer this one:
Kinda prefer the first, the second is good but needs the context.
Caesar and Lust
The Unknown Unknown
What's the work?
Medaka Box is a manga about all-around perfect student Medaka Kurokami, who is elected as the President of Hakoniwa Academy's student council by 98% of the student body. She steadily forms her own handpicked Student Council that revolves around the titular "medaka box," a suggestion box where the student body can ask of her help.
The manga is quite infamous for shifting genres and tones faster than a humming bird flapping its wings. What started as a school slice of life shifts to multi-chapter arcs as Medaka discovers the existence of other students with inhuman abilities like herself known as Abnormals. There are also other students called Specials whose talents are not quite at an Abnormal level, and regular students like Zenkichi who do not possess any particularly special traits. Then, there is the conspiracy on school grounds called the "Flask Plan" that plans to create more Abnormals.
And then there are folks called Minus.
Who is the candidate? The character’s actions?
Kumagawa Misogi is the third major antagonist introduced in the manga and is probably one of the most influential. For starters, he was one of the person Medaka, a paragon sworn to help others in need, could not save—and therefore got him kicked out.
As a child, Kumagawa was sent to Hakoniwa General Hospital to be tested for abnormalities. By coincidence, he met Medaka there and sat next to her. After sharing his nihilistic views on life and humanity with the girl, he had been called in by a staff member and then met Hitomi Hitoyoshi. Kumagawa tried to bribe Hitomi into not testing him by giving, her data on abnormals which he had accumulated through unknown means. Hitomi refused however, which prompted Kumagawa to threaten Hitomi's son, Zenkichi. Hitomi recognized the threat and retaliated. In response, Kumagawa told her that whatever choice she picked, either she would become corrupt or her son would be endangered.
He's been in transit for most of his life, transferring from one school to the next, but later arrives at Hakoniwa Academy to usurp Medaka, who has become the school's student council president. And he annonuces his arrival by beating the tar out of the previous antagonists as he greets Medaka.
After having a conversation with the headmaster about his ideals and ambitions, Kumagawa sets up Class 13's junior classroom as Class -13's temporary headquarters. One week later, at the end of the semester, Kumagawa interrupts Medaka's speech. He begins by introducing himself as Medaka's ex, then calls for her impeachment, on the grounds that she does not have a vice-president. He reveals his "majority" of student signatures are from Class -13. Stating that the rules now make him Student Council president, he introduces his own council, and states the new rules he will be putting into effect. Medaka turns the situation around however, by forcing Kumagawa to try and overthrow her with a Student Council battle.
He's up in the first fight, to everyone's surprise, in an effort to set the tone for his council win or lose. He's up against Zenkichi, who appears to throttle him, but Kumagawa baits him into lowering his guard and then using All Fiction—an Abnormality that can warp reality—to blind him. This forces Zenkichi to destroy the platform they're on and send them to their deaths in a pit of vipers. All Fiction, however, can erase even Kumagawa's death, but Zenkichi also survives due to some weird mumbo-jumbo. Don't ask.
Fast forward to the Treasurer's Battle in the gardens, he and Emukae fight the mother-son duo Hitomi and Zenkichi. The object is for the women of the fight to remove the bracelets of the men before time expires—or else they blow up. As Hitomi and Zenkichi find Kumagawa and Emuake, Hitomi attacks what she thinks is Kumagawa. It is however only a dummy, and Kumagawa attacks Zenkichi from behind. He then orders Emukae to separate them, Kumagawa and Hitomi ending up together. Kumagawa reveals he erased his aura to confound Zenkichi's senses. After Zenkichi reforms Emukae, Kumagawa attacks them—but so he can erase the damages to them, not out of real malice. Accepting Emukae's change of heart, he tells Zenkichi to take care of her.
However, Kumagawa tells Hitomi he still fully intends to end the match with a draw, revealing he also used All Fiction to erase the keyholes his and Zenkichi's bracelets. His Xanatos Gambit is foiled when Emukae uses herself to shield the boys from the explosion. Kumagawa grows steadily more unhinged as Emukae refuses his offer to erase her injuries. Trying to keep a reign on his emotions, Kumagawa requests the end of the match and trusts her to Zenkichi. With his final confrontation with Medaka looming, he goes off to retrieve his original Abnormality by deliberately provoking his cohort, Chougasaki, into killing him so he could see Ajimu—the all-powerful girl whose face he tore off long ago.
On August twenty-second, the Student Council and Class -13 gather for the final battle. Medaka sets some conditions for the battle and offers him her hand, Kumagawa uses opportunity to attack her. The two equally matched superhumans show their superhuman abilities in a battle that goes up and down the clock together. It is a slobberknocker that leaves them ragged and on their knees. Kumagawa tries to depower Medaka with a Book Maker screw, but she endures it. He is confused by the crowd that shows up to cheer for Medaka, and is surprised to hear they are from Class 13. Still on his knees, Kumagawa wonders if he might one day come to Medaka's aid when she is in trouble. Medaka tells him he can, and delivers one last punch to his face.
After that, Kumagawa and his Co-Dragons intend to take him and leave, but Medaka eventually convinces him to stay—even becoming her council's new vice-president. Thus ends his tenure as an antagonist.
Magnificent (Charming, Charismatic, Intelligent, etc.)? Why or why not
Kumagawa is shifty and, despite his downplaying of himself, he is unusually good at manipulating people. He was somehow able to procure a position as student council president despite having an approval rating of 0%. He manipulated a delinquent by the name of Kouki Akune, who was also his general affairs manager, into beating down people he saw as a threat to their "little paradise", including Medaka. During his tenure at Arc Villain, he almost recruited Kujira, Medaka's own sister, to his side. Not to mention, as a child, he bribed a grown doctor with a Sadistic Choice.
Kumagawa has sort of... an "odd" charisma about him. It's not the traditional "so self-confident or powerful you can't help but respect them." He's just so dissonant, calm and smiling even in tense or dangerous situations, always putting himself down if it means pulling someone else up. In universe, to the highly negative and largely insane students of Class -13, he is to them what Medaka is to the other students. Kumagawa is an example of what it means to be a Minus. He shows the Minuses that Kumagawa is someone who would stand by and stand up for them no matter what. He's such a Dark Messiah that the Minuses' loyalty to him is genuine friendship.
And, hey, his eerieness apparently works out: he's the most popular character of the series by a complete landslide.
As for smarts, simply put, as a person who doesn't expect to win anything, setting up situations where a loss is also a win is a very important skill. And of course a win is naturally a win as well. That's put on display best in the climax of the Treasurer's Battle where he subverts the rules so it can only end in a draw.
Kumagawa pulls off very quick-witted moves in both short and long term. First and foremost is his decision to be the first to fight so that the rest of his teammates can take out Hinokage, Akune, and Kikaijima who were, at the time, training in order to prepare for the next battles. In victory, he gets a chance to set the tone and destroy morale. In defeat, eh, no biggie. He can just come back and try again. In the Treasurer's Battle, he helps Emukae with great instructions, once tricks his opponent with a decoy, and erases his "aura" to blindside the Hitoyoshi family. Then, there's his usual shtick of letting people waylay on him, only to erase the damages with All Fiction, and then put them in their place after he's got them right where he wants.
Every time his indomitably cheery demeanor fades, Kumagawa quickly recovers. When Zenkichi is somehow revived, when Emukae is reformed, when Medaka somehow survives Book Marker... Every single time a potential breakdown looks like it's about to start, he recovers by simply accepting reality or showing the requisite valor necessary to maintain his magnificence.
Bastard? Not too much of one?
His introduction in the story is the aftermath of a brutal beatdown of the Flask Plan members, and he has the gall to say it's not his fault. He threatened a mother's son, driven a giant screw through the school headmaster's skull (he fixed it), wants to bring the elite down to his level. But, his heart's somehow in the right place, wanting to offer genuine solace in the fractured hearts of the Minus. And, for all his differences with Medaka, he eventually becomes an ally—albeit a quirky and often creepy ally—to her and the rest of the Student Council as vice president. Hooray, Character Development.
Competition?
None in his arc.
Conclusion?
Certainly one of my more peculiar proposals, but that's why people like him are called "Abnormals". What you say you guys?
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Dante is a mess of Insane Troll Logic with her poorly worded attempts to paint herself a Well-Intentioned Extremist to Ed, has racked up a death count at least in the thousands to preserve her own youth and life, advocates for genocide for this purpose and dies as a result of destroying Gluttony's mind and him not being able to follow her commands anymore. She's written to be a Classic Villain with many failings and it cripples any shot she'd have here.
@ mir, Yes, I've made a template... it just needs a quote and I'll put Lust in later.
Edited by 43110 on Aug 12th 2020 at 12:57:54 PM