TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Cleanup thread: Magnificent Bastard

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous post 
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

  • Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.

  • What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
    • Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
    • Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
    • Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
    • Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
    • Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.

  • What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.

  • Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.

  • What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
    • Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
    • Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
    • List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
    • The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.

  • How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.

  • What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.

  • What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.

  • What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.

  • Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.

  • What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.

  • Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.

  • What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.

  • Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.

Thread rules

When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.

Resolved items

In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.

However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.

This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.

Definitely an MB

Definitely not an MB

  • South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#227: May 9th 2018 at 9:26:22 PM

My comments on Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Drafts:

  • Saigan? I haven't heard of that in connection to any Lupin before, what is it?
  • Wilson Fisk, Lex Luthor, Doctor Doom, Ra's Al-Ghul, The Mandarin, and Sinestro are all putting a Pot Hole to the relevant work page at best, a violation of State the source.
  • I think Fisk's entry, gangster should be changed to reflect the full trope meaning, such as mob boss or head gangster. Pedantic, I'm sure, but it more closely conveys what the Pot Hole means.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#228: May 9th 2018 at 9:44:51 PM

@Crazysamaritan, It looked like you had it as his last name in the entry, I'll take it out and please don't nitpick other people's stuff so much, I'll talk to them about it myself if it's a big issue.

Going to have to think on Evil Morty.

Now here's one I'd advocate keeping and I'll prep his rewrite:

What is the work?

Die Hard is an absolutely fantastic Bruce Willis classic which countless films have attempted to replicate the success of. In it, Willis plays John McClane, a New York cop in L.A. for the holidays to see his separated wife and kids. His wife, Holly, works at the Nakatomi building, which is unfortunately targeted by master thief and my candidate today, Hans Gruber, played to perfection by Alan Rickman. As McClane tries to save his wife, he enters into a game of wits with the dangerous man, who seems to have thought of everything in advance.

Who is Hans Gruber? What has he done?

We meet Hans—with his cool demeanour and classy clothes—taking over the Nakatomi building meticulously, his men quietly killing off the security while he and the rest of his group enter by truck. Calmly intruding the company Christmas party, Hans has him men take the employees, including Holly—though he does not know she is McClane's wife—hostage. Calming the panicked employees to avoid complications, Hans reveals he knows a good deal of the personal history of their head, Joe Takagi. Taking Takagi captive to gain access to the code to the safe holding $640 million in bearer bonds, Hans, after an eloquent talk revealing his knowledge of many things, wastes no time shooting Takagi dead when he says he does not know the combo.

Moving forward, Hans has his hacker begin working to crack the code and though frustrated by McClane killing one of his henchman, takes it in stride, ordering the brother of the dead man to stay calm and promises him vengeance if they stick to plan. When McClane radios the police for help, Hans is immediately able to deduce his location and sends his men after him and as soon as he realizes McClane is traversing the building via elevator, has his men cut off the shafts. When an officer comes to investigate, Hans stations one of his men to act as a guard and almost throws off all suspicion until McClane throws the dead body of one of Hans' men out the window to land on the cop car. Responding to McClane's attempts to intimidate him, Hans simply stays composed and has his men verify McClane's claims of picking off Hans' men.

When forced to negotiate with the hostages, Hans handles the situation with Holly excellently, making sure the hostages are kept content and thus docile, while also ensuring his men are able to keep them in sight. Having his hacker follow the police on camera, Hans is able to follow their movement, thwarting their attempt to use an RV by having his men destroy it with a rocket launcher and when his rocket crew is taken out, immediately knew it was McClane inside and not the cops outside. He also gets a hilarious scene with the douchey Ellis in which he tricks the smug idiot into giving him McClane's name and tries to use him to get McClane to give up the locations of the detonators he stole from Hans before killing Ellis when this proves ineffective.

Hans also throws off the police by covering his robbery by demanding the release of various terrorists. When Hans gets caught unarmed by McClane he is instantly able to improvise an American accent to pretend he's a hostage and nearly tricks McClane into giving him a loaded gun. When McClane catches on, Hans, noticing McClane is barefoot, has his men shoot the glass when they cannot hit McClane behind cover, to further injure him. Predicting the FBI will send armed helicopters instead of the transports he requested, Hans sends the hostages to the roof, planning to blow it up, killing them and the FBI, while faking his own death and escaping with his payday. Although he almost succeeds in taking out McClane by taking Holly hostage, Hans is finally thrown out the window in his famous death scene, putting an end to his nefarious scheme.

How do his actions and personality show he is a Magnificent Bastard?

In terms of action, Hans show all the criteria, masterfully orchestrating his takeover and movement of his men like a true Chessmaster. Additionally, Hans is a master of psychology and knows how to play the hostages, local police and federal agent like fiddles, with only McClane able to match him.

Has is absolutely no Smug Snake and is very charismatic, Faux Affably Evil to the end, helped greatly by Rickman's performance. Additionally, he is able to remain calm in an exceedingly stressful situation and can always think up a backup plan like the true master of Xanatos Speed Chess that he is.

Mitigating factors?

Now, the elephant in the room. Yes, he is also listed as a CM but as Ambar pointed out from talks with his fiancee, this isn't a case of him being a savagely torture everything in sight. No, Hans is a monster because of his unfettered greed. He is logical, single-minded in his goal and ruthless in its execution but there is nothing preventing him from overlapping with MB.

The other thing is the expression he shows in his death scene. I don't think this is so much an undignified expression of shitting his pants at what's happening it's just that falling off a building is...shocking, to say the least. This is helped by the fact that even up until he's literally falling to his death, he's turning his gun to shoot Holly and John, so Hans is clearly ready to go out swinging.

Verdict

Oh Hans, you emphasize both the Magnificence and the Bastardry of this trope in both body and soul.

Thoughts?

edited 9th May '18 9:46:09 PM by 43110

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#229: May 9th 2018 at 9:56:16 PM

[tup] Hans. A weird case where two tropes that are usually a antithesis manage to overlap.

AKA, The class of character that I never could write.

Watch me destroying my country
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#230: May 9th 2018 at 10:09:28 PM

[tup]To Hans Gruber.

So, who might look through Heavy Object for candidates?

I pretty much doubt Flide or Prizewell will count as they seem a tad bit too smug(Plus the latter tried to kill refugees from the Faith Organization and attempted to level a city of immigrants.), also there might be others who might get their names blacklisted from this trope.

IPP Wick Check created.
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#231: May 9th 2018 at 10:11:53 PM

Lupin is his last name. Sansei (and "the san") is a romanization where the translation is "the third". It's a reference to him being the grandson of the title character from Arsène Lupin.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#232: May 9th 2018 at 10:11:59 PM

[up][up] I think that the best is just a massive Purge for all the examples until we got them aproved.

When we start The Purge?

edited 9th May '18 10:12:19 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#233: May 9th 2018 at 10:12:20 PM

You and jackie are probably the best for that, Joseph. I know you're both into that series.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#234: May 9th 2018 at 10:13:06 PM

Hans is an easy keep. He qualifies for CM, but it's something you have to think about—the emphasis of the film is on his cool factor rather than his evil.

Wilson Fisk, Lex Luthor, Doctor Doom, Ra's Al-Ghul, The Mandarin, and Sinestro are all putting a Pot Hole to the relevant work page at best, a violation of State the source.

Go take a look at comic book pages for Complete Monster. Many of the entries for the villains are structured the exact same way, especially when said villain has his own page on this site (as Fisk, Luthor, Doom, and Ra's all do). If it were a violation of any rule the moderators would have called us on it a long, long time ago.

edited 9th May '18 10:15:48 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#235: May 9th 2018 at 10:25:13 PM

Alright, here's my first EP of Magnificent Bastard. It's from the shows that I watch from my childhood days and massive spoiler ahead as this show is a mystery show after all....But it's a little bit sparse and I wrote the things that I remember from that show as the footage for it is rather hard to find

What's the Work

So the works name is The File of Young Kindaichi or Kindaichi Shonen no Jikenbo ...The story is about Hajime Kindaichi, a highschooler who is esentially a grandson of the famous detective Kosuke Kindaichi. He mostly solves any murder mysteries along with his childhood friend, Miyuki and some of his friends on Police Force, Inspector Kenmochi and Kengo Akechi. Usually most of the killers took a persona of a legendary monster or based on famous characters. However the said murderers still leaves clues in which Kindaichi is inevitably the only person to notice. And sometimes, there's always some secret tragedy from the past (often surprisingly moving) that motivates the killer to do said killings. All of which leads up to the climax of each story where Kindachi unmasks the perpetrator in a dramatic summation gathering. Each story is also a rather challenging fair play whodunnit so clever readers may be able to beat Kindaichi to the solution.

So the candidate is from one of the cases that Kindaichi tries to solve......The Gentleman Thief Murder case. In this case, there is the gentleman thief on the loose trying to steal a notable painting called "My Beloved Daughter" created by a notable painter, Gamou Gouzou ( Though in the end, it wasn't Gamou who created it but it's someone else). Now yes, in this case, there is a murderer who used the Gentleman Thief's name to framing him/her up. But the murderer is not our candidate that I will be talking. But instead it's the Gentleman Thief herself........... Ladies and gentleman, Meet Daigo Maki!

Who Is She

So...............The Gentleman Thief is actually disguising as an art journalist called Daigo Maki and while we don't know about her in the first part of the story in her first debut. We knew about the tricks and patterns that sometimes the Gentleman Thief used such as leaving a calling cards so that she could tell the next target and right now she's targeting the famous painter, Gamou Gouzou for his painting, My Beloved Daughter.....In the first part of story, she was actually introduced as a jovial and fascinated art journalist. And according to some people including Gamou's butler, Komiyama said that the Gentleman Thief had stolen the My Beloved Daughter for once and returned it and Daigo claims that the Gentleman Thief was also donated the painting into a famous gallery because it wasn't recognized yet despite it's honorable status and thus the painting itself won a grandprize.............However, this was all but a LIE!!!

In the second part, Kindaichi then used a reproduced painting as a bait to capture the Gentleman Thief in which Daigo reveals herself to the main characters and holds them at gunpoint. However, when she revealed herself....It was also revealed that she was not only being framed by the murderer who took her name but she also told that Daigo is just the many disguise that the Gentleman Thief used. After this, she flees from Kindaichi and co with the famous painting by a helicopter and proclaiming that it will be her victory for the time being and wished to meet Kindaichi again in the future. Fortunately, Kindaichi tricks her a little bit by replacing the painting with the fake product

In the third part, the Gentleman Thief then disguise herself as a frail old woman that wanted to asking for help by lifting her bag and after Kindaichi accepts, the old woman ties Kindaichi to the heavy bag. And when her disguise was shed by Kindaichi herself, she then thanks her for clearing her name and then replace the real painting into the real one and just letting him tied up with a basket full of heavy rocks in the middle of busy street

She then appeared in Episode 144 where she was challenging Kindaichi again for capturing her and it was revealed that she disguise herself as an eyepatch man named Shuusuke Endo. She then proceeds to steal a painting that she herself targetted and then flees again.

She returns again in "Alchemy Murder Case" in the anime Kindaichi Case Files R disguising as an Alchemist Daughter. In the end, She then successfully stole the Alchemist's gold and then escape by a boat, thanking Kindaichi for that.

This is the only things that I can remember as for now.... But if I recall correctly, she appears again in other episode,disguising as Kindaichi's friend, Kenmochi. And then runs away with her prize.

How Does She Capable to Thinking on her Feet and How Her Charisma Looks Like

As far as her charisma goes, she's a pretty much skilled actor who tricks most of the people including the protagonist herself, Kindaichi. And for thinking on their feet and intelligence, yeah sure she left a note for her target and then proceeds to disguise as somebody so that people wont knew her identity. In the first case, she also realized that she was been tricked so she disguise herself for a retribution against Kindaichi by tying him into a basket full of heavy rocks in a Middle of Busy street and then replace the painting sooooo yeah

Is She Too Much of A Bastard

Well she's a bit trollish towards Kindaichi and his friends and she has a bit of a jovial attitude and she also can't wait for settle with Kindaichi again while she gave her some puzzles to solve. And yes, she does have a standards to as she may going to rob people's precious possession but she won't murder anyone so yeah.... And even she was winning and tries to flee, she still puts a jovial attitude so that's something

Competition

The only Competition that she had is with one of Kindaichi's rivals Takato Yoichi. As he is an intelligent serial killer who saw murder as an art form and treat people as an expendable and nearly of his plans are a success..... But! Make no mistake as Daigo herself is also as intelligence as Takato as nearly of her plans are pretty much successful in her own way and most of her tricks are either effective and successful towards the protagonist soooo yeah.....

Final Verdict

Thoughts on my first EP? Sorry if its a mess and written sparsely as I write this on my phone and I try at my best to write the stuff that I remember as its pretty hard to find the footage of Kindaichi case files in the internet given on how obscure it is in Western Media. And if she got voted down, ah well....At least I tried. Until then, thoughts?

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#236: May 9th 2018 at 10:38:42 PM

I lean yea there but Elfen, please clean up the EPs going forward, it's kinda hard to tell what's going on at times but you've done good work before, so I'll extend some faith.

edit: Sorry, this is from your memory of watching it along time ago? If I'm understanding that correctly, I'm afraid I'll have to abstain.

edited 9th May '18 10:39:59 PM by 43110

ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#237: May 9th 2018 at 10:39:50 PM

[up] Thanks.... Have to admit that it was a bit rushed. But I'll try at my best to improve my E Ps in the future

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#238: May 9th 2018 at 10:44:43 PM

[up][up]Good point. I'll note him right away.

IPP Wick Check created.
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#239: May 9th 2018 at 10:48:23 PM

Definite [tup] on Hans! I can also give Maki a [tup]

Does anyone else want to vote of Evil Morty? So far I got 2 [tup], 0 [tdown], and 43110 is still thinking about his decision. here's my effort post on Evil Morty.

[down] If you want to effort post Alejandro go right ahead.

edited 10th May '18 12:22:31 AM by G-Editor

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#240: May 9th 2018 at 11:23:13 PM

How come Alejandro from Total Drama got cut? I can agree with Heather not counting as MB. But, Alejandro I can come up with an argument for. For one, he caused the most direct eliminations in the series and I would say he displayed the most cunning strategies out of all the antagonists in the series.

Sure, in All Stars he isn't impressive as he was in World Tour but everyone knows by then that he is evil and not to trust him.

edited 9th May '18 11:23:31 PM by username2527

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#241: May 10th 2018 at 1:15:01 AM

[tup]Hans and Evil Morty

Contniiting on with comic examples. These are on X Men

  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Sebastian Shaw; a would-be usurper comments at one point that trying to outplan him is likely a more difficult task than conquering a country.
    • Cyclops during the Utopia period of X-Men history. Not everyone can con an entire army of vampires, but Cyke sure can.
    • Magneto has his moments, too.
    • Your mileage will really vary on this one, but Mr. Sinister.
    • Chris Claremont can be considered an out-of-character example for all the crap he managed to sneak past his editors, with sneaking in the Mystique/Destiny relationship being his Crowning Moment Of Awesome.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#242: May 10th 2018 at 4:02:35 AM

[up][up] He is still too emotionally vulnerable in World Tour

I like him a lot, but he's not this trope despite being competent, that's what made him good.

Watch me destroying my country
Morgenthaler Since: Feb, 2016
#243: May 10th 2018 at 4:04:07 AM

New large-scale trope cleanup? How interesting.

If we're looking at the main subpages first, Game of Thrones has an entire page devoted to itself:

Given the Loads And Loads Of Characters present in the show, there were bound to be quite a few of these characters:
  • Petyr Baelish, a.k.a. Littlefinger:
    • The man manages to turn on Eddard Stark successfully and undermine him, then breaks up a marriage alliance between two powerful houses.
    • He tops all this off in Season 4 by helping Olenna Tyrell plot Joffrey's death, then revealing that he is the reason the War of the Five Kings started — he had Jon Arryn poisoned.
    • Subverted in Season 7 where he becomes a Smug Coward Out-Gambled by Sansa and Arya taking his Magnificent Bastard credentials.
  • Varys qualifies as well, as he's been secretly supporting Daenerys, while playing along with the current government of Westeros by providing intelligence (at least until he's forced to flee from King's Landing with Tyrion). With spies in every part of Westeros, Varys had access to a wealth of information on some of the biggest players on every side of the war which he was perfectly capable of using to his advantage. He is the only one who can stand toe-to-toe with Littlefinger and rather 'enjoy' it.
  • Tywin Lannister:
    • He served as Hand of the King for twenty years under King Aerys II. Given that this is the man named "the Mad King", and that he was able to not only placate him, but also maintain the position for twenty years, this is pretty impressive.
    • In Season 3, he plans to have Tyrion marry Sansa Stark so that the Lannisters can have a portion of the North under control if Robb Stark falls and only have the Greyjoys to worry about, who no-one likes anyway.
    • He really shows his brilliance again in Season 3 with the orchestration of the Red Wedding, defeating Robb Stark and wiping out the majority of his forces in a single stroke. He spends the entire season sitting around waiting for everything to come together because he's already won and nobody else knows it.
    • Ultimately subverted. As it turns out, scheming isn't much good against a crossbow bolt to the belly when you're on the privy, from The Un-Favourite son, no less. As they say, Lord Tywin Lannister in the end, did not in fact shit gold.
  • Tyrion Lannister. The little guy can bend almost anyone to his will.
    • This is the reason that Daenerys names him the Hand of the Queen, as he has proven himself to be capable of governing, by restoring Meereen to prosperity without having to resort to slavery, and he has also given her plenty of solid advice on how to rule.
  • Olenna Tyrell has become this trope and more:
    • She and Littlefinger orchestrate Joffrey's assassination in broad daylight in front of a large crowd and not only get away scott-free, but they're not even on the list of suspects.
    • Olenna defeated Tywin Lannister right under his very nose and he doesn't even know it. You almost forgive her for making Tyrion her Fall Guy and Sansa, Littlefinger's hostage and implied payment. Although that does come back to bite her in the ass when the reasonable Lannister leadership is dead and Cersei takes over, this chain of events culminates in the death of Mace, Loras and Margarey.
  • We can now add Arya Stark to this list. This young woman killed Walder Frey and fed him his sons by impersonating a maid, and then, killed all Frey male family members at once by poisoning their wine during family feast, all while pretending to be the old man himself. Bonus points for her giving a "The Reason You Suck" Speech, cleverly disguised as a speech of congratulation. She goes on to join her sister Sansa as a magnificent sisterly duo who decimiate Littlefinger and all his plans.
  • Even Sansa Stark has shown herself to be this.
    • In Season 6, she summons Littlefinger at the perfect time in order to win the Battle of the Bastards, then coldly leaves Ramsay to the dogs. She's the political brains up North now, and she knows it.
    • In Season 7, she only goes higher. She learned all of Littlefinger's tricks from him while seemingly staying by his side as a staunch ally. However, she then pulls the rug out from under him when he believed her to be doing so to Arya - now he is the one losing his composure while she outlines every last dastardly deed he ever committed to his once-loyal Lords of the Vale. To say that was satisfying to watch is quite the understatement.
  • As of the revelations of Season 6 and Season 7, somehow, Eddard Stark has proven to have been one along. What else can be said about the man who kept the greatest secret in all of Westeros so successfully that the only means to access it was supernatural? And of course, Ned hid Aegon "Jon Snow" Targaryen, heir to the Iron Throne, Right Under Their Noses and outfoxed Varys, Littlefinger, the Lannisters, Robert Baratheon, and all the other schemers. This also lends many of his scenes Rewatch Bonus, including one moment where Ned is more or less trolling Robert via Double Entendre about how the King can't get his hands on surviving Tagaryens:
    Robert Baratheon: Oh, it's unspeakable to you? What her father did to your family, that was unspeakable! What Rhaegar Targaryen did to your sister, the woman I loved! I'll kill every Targaryen I get my hands on!
    Ned Stark: But you can't get your hands on this one, can you?

I'm hesitant to say anyone counts. Baelish may be an example in the books because he's a] more competent and b] his arc isn't finished, but the show version holds the Idiot Ball a few times and is ultimately Out-Gambitted, resulting in his death after ignominiously begging for mercy.

Tywin Lannister ends up being a Smug Snake who dies at hands of his abused son after scoring a few victories against the Lannisters' rivals.

Most other characters are some version of Guile Hero. That includes Arya and Sansa, and even Olenna because of the show's Adaptational Heroism of many characters. Tyrion and Varys are about the only ones I could see a decent argument for, but even they have plans that just blow up in their faces and are also simplified from a Wild Card and Ambiguously Evil to more traditionally well-intentioned characters.

Ned is just misuse, not only is he pretty heroic, the whole point of his character is that he's too bound by his code of honor to survive the political scheming in Kings Landing. Okay, he managed to succesfully keep one secret, while at the same time allowing usurpers to take over the throne, causing a continent-wide war over the resulting succession dispute, and leading to the near-destruction of his own House.

edited 10th May '18 4:11:24 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#244: May 10th 2018 at 4:21:05 AM

[up] Everyone except maybe Varys should be count.

And Baelish' motivations are just too petty to be this trope

Watch me destroying my country
ElfenLiedFan90 Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression) from Jakarta,Indonesia Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
#245: May 10th 2018 at 4:22:51 AM

Any more votes on Daigo Maki?

And yeah, I'll give Hans and Evil Morty a yes by the by

"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#246: May 10th 2018 at 5:35:53 AM

@Kazuya, Can you explain how he's too emotionally vulnerable?

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#247: May 10th 2018 at 6:04:06 AM

[up] The constant jokes about how he's scared of his brother Jose, he o Is also a coward to some thing, plus, he didn't suffer defeats because a Groin Attack.

Plus, he is more of a Opportunist instead of a Long term planner, his plans work because practically everyone is too busy hating each other and he is the new guy and he's hot.

He also was effectively outsmarted before the season was over (Cody, Serra and Heather were all voting to eliminate him until Serra did accidentally blow up the plan and got disqualified)

edited 10th May '18 6:10:49 AM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#248: May 10th 2018 at 6:04:41 AM

@Morgen they all sound like cuts and now I know Hans has only gotten six upvotes but if somethings changes I can take him down later so here he is:

  • Die Hard: Hans Gruber is the mastermind behind the scheme to steal hundreds of millions in bearer bonds from the Nakatomi building. Meticulously orchestrating his operation, Hans shows his brilliance by constantly outmaneuvering the police and federal agents and his charisma by remaining level headed as his plan is disrupted and in his dealings negotiating with the hostages. When caught unarmed by John McClane, Hans is instantly able to improvise with an American accent to pretend he is a hostage and throw off suspicion. Though utterly ruthless in the name of his avarice, Hans is an iconic villain because of his wit and charm, setting the stage for countless action villains to follow.

Now, back to cuts, since I'm handling the CM discussion for iZombie, I figured I'd do the purging of the characters listed as MB for the previous seasons:

  • Magnificent Bastard:
    • Blaine becomes the sole supplier of brains to the zombies in the city, operating out of an actual butcher shop, using regular (i.e. not undead) delivery boys. His first act is to have sex with a rich older woman, infecting her, and then offer to supply her with brains for $25,000 a month. He's also charming and disarming, convincing Clive that his shop is on the level, when the detective comes to ask about a dead kid. He even offers Clive to show him around the back of the shop, despite having a cut-up body there (although, had Clive agreed, he would've been killed). Despite being a lowly street dealer when he was alive, Blaine shows refinement, admitting he used to be a wine connoisseur before his taste buds atrophied, and even has his cook try to come up with tasty dishes with brains.
    • The Big Bad of season 3, Carey Gold easily mixed with the background and so was barely remembered when it comes time to suspect who is involved with the Wally's family murders or anything else. However she managed to gather a faction of extremist zombies in Fillmore Graves to help her on a mutiny against Chase, start a doomsday Liv and Chase can barely contain because by the time they realized her plan, it was too late to stop it. As a result they were only able to suppress it by stopping the vaccines, and even dying, she still managed to get what she wanted: There's more zombies than ever and Fillmore Graves is forced to impliment its doomsday protocol, a plan she believed would be better than their initial 'build a zombie sanctuary and live secretly' plan. All of this was done while they were far too under the radar for anyone to see it.
    • Utterly subverted with Chase Graves as he was set up to be one of these and pulled off a massive Xanatos Gambit that culminated in an attempt to blackmail the United States into supplying 10,000+ zombies all of the brains they needed versus unleashing a horde of zombies on the world. Instead, the United States just walled off the city and now he's stuck with a lack of food for his undead horde as well as a city that despises him. This is notable because the show gave all the hints of him being a Magnificent Bastard only for his plan to fall flat on its face.
      • Chase gets to reaffirm some of his MB credits, though, when a US general begins to campaign to nuke Seattle and kill everyone, a threat that ends up drawing close enough that everyone at Fillmore Graves is legitimately concerned. So Chase has Major smuggled out of Seattle with the help of Don E and Blaine, where they kidnap a party girl and take her back to Seattle, zombifying her in the processnote , where its revealed she's the general's daughter. He'd be unwilling to nuke the city while his daughter is trapped within it, and he can't have her smuggled out now that she's a zombie without some way to cure her first. Result is one of the city's many problems is solved.

No one here counts:

  • Blaine, besides having one of the most pathetic attempts at a redemption I've ever seen is DQ'd by the fact that A) killing homeless teenagers to sell their brains to zombies who he's infected is such a ruthlessly greedy scheme it got him listed as a CM for a while until the next season gave him some half-assed redeeming qualities. On top of that, Blaine is a bonafide Smug Snake, like, he almost oozes slime with every word he gives.
  • Carey Gold is... not the trope at all. She's a good planner and that's it. The character herself gets so little screen time we barely get a beat on her personality, so she fails on the "intrigue building" count. Not only that but once Chase Graves catches onto her scheme, she's so easily dispatched it's not even funny.
  • Chase, I'm going to vouch we cut for now since his entry is digging into stuff that happens in Season 4 and I'll address him again two weeks after the season ends. I will say this though, given his acts in Season 3, it will be very hard for him to get back on this trope.

Motion we strike all. Thoughts?

edited 10th May '18 6:44:51 AM by 43110

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#249: May 10th 2018 at 6:54:20 AM

[up]Agreed. Maybe we could Chase back up later.

Also . Forgot to say my thoughts on the X-men ones:

  • Keep Magneto. He's probably up there with Doom as one of Marvel's best versions of this trope.
  • Sebastian Shaw (Maybe). I'd like other comic peoples opinions
  • Cyclops would go under Guile Hero.
  • Cut Sinister. Way to hate able.
  • Claremont is the writer. So uh no.

edited 10th May '18 6:56:12 AM by miraculous

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Fighteer MOD Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#250: May 10th 2018 at 6:54:31 AM

Hey, folks. Chiming in here to answer a question that was raised earlier.

The rule that all trope examples must state the source, and that source may not be potholed, applies regardless of what trope is being discussed. The ideal format for examples is....

The source can be an individual work, a series, a franchise, a "character-as-franchise" article in the Comic Book namespace, etc, but it should be formatted per our style rules, no exceptions.

edited 10th May '18 6:55:11 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Total posts: 82,595
Top