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"Moments" cleanup and maintenance (Awesome, Funny, Heartwarming, Shocking, Tear Jerker)

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See here for Nightmare Fuel, which has frequent enough problems to deserve a thread of its own.

A while ago, I made a thread for cleaning up Nightmare Fuel pages, since they tend to attract all sorts of gushing about anything vaguely unsettling, as well as violations of Example Indentation and the Spoiler Policy among other problems. Well, other Moments pages have similar issues, though to a slightly lesser extent, so they may as well have a cleanup thread too.


"Moments" reactions should:

  • Be free of spoiler tags, in accordance with the Spoilers Off policy which states that:
    Fridge, Headscratchers, and the various Moments subpages (Tear Jerker, Moment of Awesome, etc.) are for post-viewing discussions. Spoiler tagging there defeats the purpose of the articles. You shouldn't be going there if you are worried about them.
  • Be based on things that actually have happened, not things that could happen, will happen, or might have happened. Speculation belongs only on the Wild Mass Guessing pages.
  • Have affected the writer of the entry themselves. If you don't find something funny or sad, let someone who did add it to Funny Moments or Tear Jerker.
  • Elicit a strong reaction. Not every single time a character accomplishes something is an Awesome Moment, not every attempt at comedy is a Funny Moment, not every time someone does something nice is a Heartwarming Moment, and not every unhappy event is a Tear Jerker.
  • Explain why they're so awesome/funny/sad: Zero Context Examples aren't allowed on this wiki. Your description should allow anyone to understand your reaction.

Moment images have their own Image Pickin' cleanup thead.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 3rd 2024 at 5:50:03 PM

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#1126: Mar 31st 2023 at 11:08:59 PM

Bringing this here from ATT: there's a pretty lengthy thread about an entry on Awesome.Zero Punctuation regarding a critical review of Hogwarts Legacy where the review ranted about J.K. Rowling's transphobic views, and whether it was falling afoul of ROCEJ issues

As I said there, I don't have a problem with that part of it (especially since the entry as written seems to emphasize Yahtzee's honesty in calling out Rowling's transphobia by name more than it does the 'angriness' as such), but it does raise the question of whether any angry rants delivered at real people should even be listed as Awesome in the first place - something I've seen brought up in cleanup threads before, and which a number of other people in the thread were also uncomfortable with. Since that's getting kind of off-topic now from the original point of that particular thread, I'm going off of advice there and bringing it up here for more general discussion.

RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#1127: Mar 31st 2023 at 11:48:28 PM

[up]I think, (EDIT: at the very least) in general, angry rants directed at Real Life people are too controversial for an Awesome subpage.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Apr 3rd 2023 at 11:44:36 AM

BlackFaithStar [Hiatus til March] from 🇲🇾 (UTC plus 8) (Less Newbie) Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1129: Apr 1st 2023 at 1:19:48 AM

If that's the case, we'd have to also evaluate pages for satirical works that target RL people, wouldn't we? Or where do we draw the line?

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Theharbo Since: Oct, 2011
#1130: Apr 1st 2023 at 2:04:33 AM

The way I see it, and that's as a cis white male, is that moments pages are opinions, and a trans person could absolutely have the opinion that calling out Rowling's transphobia in a review of the game from an IP she created would be awesome - especially since other sites have skirted around the issue.

It speaks to the reviewer's integrity, especially given that Rowling has stated that she considers any dividends from her work to be supporting of her views.

Kindle4Light Since: Oct, 2011
#1131: Apr 1st 2023 at 4:20:42 AM

A question on the ATT brought up by nrjxll: What exactly did Rowling say that is so transphobic, that insulting her with the c-word is not a Disproportionate Retribution?

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#1132: Apr 1st 2023 at 4:47:39 AM

[up] I don't know admittedly all that much about this, but IIRC Rowling made a comment implying that trans women weren't "real" women and followed a bunch of TERF accounts, then refused to apologize, repeatedly doubled down, and I believe at one point signed on to a letter criticizing "cancel culture". Also she recently said that all support of her books equates to support of her views.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Apr 1st 2023 at 7:47:49 AM

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#1133: Apr 1st 2023 at 5:43:46 AM

I don't see why comments directed at real people should be seen as too controversial. People say that as an axiom and don't provided reasoning.

Edgar81539 Since: Mar, 2014
#1134: Apr 1st 2023 at 5:58:32 AM

[up] Because it's a double-standard. While it's true that this wiki advocates against transphobia, this can easily devolve into making "Awesome" pages for reviewers that rant against anything in the political spectrum, including "woke" content such as Mauler and Critical Drinker. Not so kosher now, is it?

Besides, I thought that this wiki was supposed to trope fictional content and its tropes, not real people, no matter how horrid they may be.

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#1135: Apr 1st 2023 at 6:10:02 AM

[up] Yes, it is? If fans of those shows want to put moments they consider awesome up on their pages, why shouldn't they?

That I don't agree with what they say, doesn't mean they shouldn't say it.

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#1136: Apr 1st 2023 at 6:13:35 AM

[up] I will note that we do have the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement, for politically/socially dicey content in general. We also have a thread specifically for violations of the ROCEJ.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Apr 1st 2023 at 9:16:47 AM

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1137: Apr 1st 2023 at 7:18:22 AM

While I agree with Yahtzee's opinions and have no time for defending transphobia, I don't think an angry rant (for any reason) in a review video should count as an Awesome Moment.

Edited by DoktorvonEurotrash on Apr 1st 2023 at 7:20:08 AM

Theharbo Since: Oct, 2011
#1138: Apr 1st 2023 at 8:30:12 AM

^ But that's the thing. Yahtzee doesn't rant about Rowling. He calls her out on being a "Massive TERF-y C-word", but he never goes into why she is that beyond "horrible opinions". He acknowledges that her transphobia makes her a horrible person, but leaves it at that.

"So, as I'm sure you know, Hogwarts Legacy is based on the work of J. K. Rowling, who is a massive TERF-y C-word; as such, reviewing it puts one in an awkward position online, as the feeling in some circles is that even acknowledging it is giving oxygen to her and her horrible C-word opinions. But damnit, I have a job to do, and I feel bad for the no-doubt hundreds of ground-level people on the dev team who probably think she's a C-word as much as any of us at this point. So how about this? I'll review the game strictly on its own merits, but start out by affirming as clearly as possible that I think J. K. Rowling is a... we're past thirty seconds now, right? Cunt. Does that offset things enough?"

He then circles back at the end.

"Dogshits Smegmawee starts well, but in the back half, turns into the pieces for three boring board games jumbled up in a single uninteresting box, and as such, I don't recommend. Thank Christ for that; probably the best possible outcome for me. I can advise against giving it money even on its own merits, because it is, by the definition laid out in my Gotham Knightsnote  review, a game made by cunts, as well as being, in a slightly more literal sense, a game made by a cunt."

He uses cunt to describe her a lot, but I'd hardly call that ranting, especially considering he's quite a Sir Swears-a-Lot.

Edited by Theharbo on Apr 1st 2023 at 5:30:46 PM

StarSword Captain of USS Bajor from somewhere in deep space Since: Sep, 2011
Captain of USS Bajor
#1139: Apr 1st 2023 at 1:03:59 PM

Some reading material on the subject:

[up]I think Yahtzee's just taking it as read that people either know about it already or can use Google if they don't.

Edited by StarSword on Apr 1st 2023 at 4:04:49 AM

Trust me, I'm an engineer!
Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#1140: Apr 1st 2023 at 3:20:35 PM

To be honest, I feel like reviewers going on rants in general shouldn't be considered awesome, regardless of whether they're calling out real people or just saying that a work sucks.

I'd favor removing examples like this one too:

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#1141: Apr 1st 2023 at 5:50:05 PM

To be honest, I feel like reviewers going on rants in general shouldn't be considered awesome, regardless of whether they're calling out real people or just saying that a work sucks.

I mean, I 100 percent agree but I also despise Caustic Critics with an intense passion (to the point that their existence is the only thing I can imagine causing me to ever go on that sort of rant myself - ironically enough), so I don't want to err too far in that direction because my instinctual bias is to cut the pages of these people outright, which is hardly wiki policy.

But I do think direct, personal attacks go too far in terms of Awesome pages. Like I said I by no means feel like calling out Rowling's transphobia should be considered 'too controversial' for the wiki, but allowing the angry rants in general doesn't seem like a good idea either.

Theharbo Since: Oct, 2011
#1142: Apr 2nd 2023 at 12:20:29 AM

Counterpoint: If rants about subjective things shouldn't be considered awesome, or funny, or any other YMMV, we'd probably also need to spiral off and cut the real-life section of “The Reason You Suck” Speech, considering that real-life is inherently subjective.

Moments and YMMV are opinions, opinions are subjective. Just because you don't find something awesome doesn't mean it doesn't belong on an awesome page.

I'm reminded of an incident in the DEATH BATTLE! page where someone cut an entry because "Murdering bitch shouldn't get an Awesome post." - yes, we all agree that murdering is bad, but that doesn't mean the act of murder can't be made awesome.

In the same vein; going on a rant can absolutely be validating. If I was a trans person and heard Yahtzee call out Rowling? I absolutely would put is as awesome that he didn't gloss over it. If I had been exploited by the music industry, I absolutely would consider its abhorrent practices being called out as awesome.

Hell, go on Last Week Tonight with John Oliver and look at how many rants/call outs are listed. We've got an *immense* clean-up to do if rants and calling out injustices can no longer be considered awesome. Just looking at 2022, we have examples of:

  • Calling out Putin
  • Calling out Disney
  • ranting about politicians and police
  • ranting about abortion being restricted.

And that's just one year on one talk show.

I hope I can speak for the vast majority of this wiki's readers, writers, and mods when I say that such things absolutely can be considered awesome.

Edited by Theharbo on Apr 2nd 2023 at 9:32:58 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#1143: Apr 2nd 2023 at 12:45:53 AM

There's a massive difference between saying "Bob said that Alice sucked" (an objective statement), and "Bob said that Alice sucked, and it was an awesome rant that everyone agrees with" (subjective).

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#1144: Apr 2nd 2023 at 4:41:24 AM

Yes but Moments are subjective. Putting a rant on an Awesome page doesn't mean (to the best of my knowledge?) "this is an awesome rant everyone agrees with". It means it's a rant at least one person thought was awesome and put it on the page.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1145: Apr 2nd 2023 at 6:18:41 AM

[up][up][up]Tbh I've always been confused why we even have a page for Oliver considering he isn't even a media reviewer or documentary ? Like that seems way off topic for this site considering we cut political pundit pages all the time. And honestly a lot of those linked examples are really not great for ROCEDJ so I dunno why we have them all.

Also I thought we did cut the real life reason you suck speeches. Did I miss something or did someone add them back? (Oh I get it. They are banned from video reviwers as they person getting that posed h has to hear it for it to be the trope. So any on Yahtzee's page need to be removed on principle anyway).

Edited by miraculous on Apr 2nd 2023 at 6:29:34 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1146: Apr 2nd 2023 at 6:46:21 AM

[up]"(Oh I get it. They are banned from video reviwers as they person getting that posed h has to hear it for it to be the trope. So any on Yahtzee's page need to be removed on principle anyway)."

This. This is what I was trying to say.

As for why we have a page on Jon Oliver, I haven't watched him much, but I'm guessing he counts as a political comedian and entertainer, same as Stephen Colbert.

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#1147: Apr 2nd 2023 at 8:20:04 AM

I feel like calling rants Awesome should especially not be allowed when the rant is political.

The TV Tropes community tends to be left-leaning, so we tolerate pages like the above John Oliver one where he says stuff liberals tend to agree with, like how restricting abortion is bad and LGBT rights are good. But if we accept a page like this, then we'd also have to accept a page for a political commentator celebrating the repeal of Roe v. Wade, or a Heartwarming example where the host reassures the viewers that climate change isn't real.

TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#1148: Apr 2nd 2023 at 10:31:02 AM

I think the awesome page can be filled with other stuff that isn't necessairly rants, whch depending of what political view you have, can be objective. However, doing stuff like making a giant cake and sharing it with the public (in Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedov's episode) can still qualify, as it isn't necesairly political, just something "Awesome" he did.

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#1149: Apr 2nd 2023 at 10:43:25 AM

Yes but Moments are subjective. Putting a rant on an Awesome page doesn't mean (to the best of my knowledge?) "this is an awesome rant everyone agrees with". It means it's a rant at least one person thought was awesome and put it on the page.

The issue is, putting it on a Moments page doesn't tell our readers "one troper thought this was cool". It tells them we endorse the rant as a Hive Mind. That's why we get so much shit for Nightmare Fuel — exaggerated entries make the entire site community look like paranoid crybabies to outsiders.

So while yes, only one person has to find it cool for it to be up, once it is up it'll look as though we all think it's awesome.

And in the instance of Yahtzee and JKR, I'm not against that. But there's still a huge difference between the objective usage under “The Reason You Suck” Speech and the gushing usage under Awesome.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Theharbo Since: Oct, 2011
#1150: Apr 2nd 2023 at 11:15:57 AM

The issue is, putting it on a Moments page doesn't tell our readers "one troper thought this was cool". It tells them we endorse the rant as a Hive Mind. That's why we get so much shit for Nightmare Fuel — exaggerated entries make the entire site community look like paranoid crybabies to outsiders.

So while yes, only one person has to find it cool for it to be up, once it is up it'll look as though we all think it's awesome.

Does it? I thought it was pretty obvious that moments were YMMV, meaning there was no Hive Mind aspect

Edited by Theharbo on Apr 2nd 2023 at 8:17:09 PM


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