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Is this too meta for an Awesome page? It's from Splatoon's.
Edited by Pichu-kun on Jul 21st 2019 at 8:40:11 AM
I'm opposed to 'meta' moments on principle. They're pretty harmless in general (and they're at least on pages meant for gushing), but they're still shoehorns, IMO.
They're also just not allowed as per da rules, so we can chop that one safely.
I agree with Discar on this.
Now, most of the rules you proposed are fine and/or already in place. The only one I'm worried about is the "strong reaction" one. The Moments were renamed from Crowning Moment specifically because no one cared about it any more. Yes, you can list every single funny moment in an entire series. That is allowed, and has been for years.
YMMV examples are subjective by definition. Some people might have strong reaction to something, others wouldn't care. It is not the reason to claim that the example is not valid, and determining whether the reaction is "strong enough" would a) add even more subjectivity on top of it b) violate the There Is No Such Thing as Notability principle. As written on that page:
Removing tropes, examples... anything... because of "notability" stifles the wiki. It can intimidate new writers who wanted to put in an example they liked and had it shot down.
Edited by Asherinka on Jul 21st 2019 at 11:28:26 AM
On the Nightmare Fuel thread, I like to make a point about how all examples should be considered by the standards of the work and the other examples. That is, if a work regularly features creepy monsters, the monsters on the NF page better be considerably scary, because otherwise one can assume the target audience wouldn't actually find it scary. On the flip side, just because we don't find something scary, doesn't mean it should be cut.
I think the same can be said for this thread, with a much broader margin of what's acceptable. See, whether or not something is scary for the target audience can be relatively objective, since, say, the same audience that'd watch gorefest horror movies wouldn't find things in Sesame Street scary, but a kid would. However, with things being awesome, funny, sad, and heartwarming, it's less important to worry about the audience and more about the general tone and standard of the work.
Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 21st 2019 at 4:32:16 AM
On the Nightmare Fuel thread, I like to make a point about how all examples should be considered by the standards of the work and the other examples.
But why should they? My understanding is that an example should fit the trope description, and that is all. What you propose is exactly determining notability — whether the example not only fits the trope but is also "notable" in the context of the work, "significant", "considerable" or what have you.
And that is what TV Tropes is not about. If a comedy has a long list of Funny moments and a horror movie — a long list of scary moments, fine. If tropes applicable to every minor character in a series with Loads and Loads of Characters are listed, fine. This is not The Other Wiki.
Edited by Asherinka on Jul 21st 2019 at 5:18:05 PM
Because even audience reactions have objective criteria, and Nightmare Fuel pages tend to be littered in shoehorns. Reading them, so many examples blatantly exaggerate the moment to make it seem more scary, but that doesn't make them scary. Nightmare Fuel pages are about things that could give its audience nightmares, not just things that make you say "well that's slightly offputting". I mean, some examples are things so blatantly harmless it makes you wonder if they weren't added just to make the work seem cooler and edgier. It isn't Nightmare Fuel if nobody was ever scared if it.
Furthermore, you're getting the notability rule wrong: that just means any non-pornographic work is worthy of a trope page, not that every audience reaction needs to be there.
Anyway, I do agree that in this case we shouldn't just go chopping examples we don't find good enough. This debate mostly concerns the Nightmare Fuel pages, so you may want to take this issue there if you want to continue debating it.
Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 21st 2019 at 11:48:39 AM
I mean, I thought that if There Is No Such Thing as Notability applied to tropes, then we might as well permit personal anecdotes, meaningless content, fancruft, and complaining. After all, we cut Counterpart Comparison for fancruft regardless of notability.
Awesome.Super Smash Bros Ultimate has an entire "Meta" folder. Is there anything salvageable in there? I think professional gaming moments are acceptable, but there's an awful lot of "The fact that..." examples.
Every day when you're browsing TV Tropes, among every ZCE is a shoehorned Moments page.
I'm gonna go clean up the TearJerker.Arthur page.
Francine's Bad Hair Day
Arthur and the Real Mr. Ratburn
Arthur's Spelling Trubble
Arthur's Pet Business
Locked in the Library
Arthur Goes to Camp
Buster Makes the Grade
Arthur's Cousin Catastrophe
Arthur Writes a Story
Arthur's Lost Dog
So Long, Spanky
Buster's New Friend
Bully for Binky
D.W. Gets Lost
D.W. Thinks Big
Arthur and the True Francine
Arthur's Chicken Pox
Sick as a Dog
The Half-Baked Sale
Arthur's Substitute Teacher Trouble
The Scare Your Pants Off Club
Arthur Meets Mister Rogers
D.W., the Picky Eater
Go to your Room, D.W.
Francine Frensky, Olympic Rider
D.W. Goes to Washington
D.W.'s Deer Friend
Buster Hits the Books
Arthur's Faraway Friend
D.W. Blows the Whistle
D.W.'s Name Game
That's How the Cookie Crumbles
The episode's name doesn't have a "That's," by the way.
Grandma Thora Appreciation Day
The Ballad of Buster Baxter
The Chips are Down
Revenge of the Chip
Arthur Rides the Bandwagon
Mom and Dad Have a Great Big Fight
D.W.'s Perfect Wish
Prunella Gets It Twice
Arthur's Big Hit
Nerves Of Steal
The Good Sport
D.W.'s Time Trouble
Is There a Doctor in the House?
Thanks a Lot, Binky
Binky Goes Nuts
Buster Gets Real
The Cherry Tree
The Great MacGrady
When Carl Met George
Grandpa Dave's Memory Album
The Last Tough Customer
So Funny I Forgot to Laugh
The Case of the Girl with the Long Face
Whip. Mix. Blend.
Brain Sees Stars
The Last Day
Buster's Second Chance
The Master Builders
The Princess Problem
With the Arthur thing, I'm a bit annoyed by saying things like "cut" and "seriously?" without explaining why. I personally found some of them actually sad.
Though I do agree that the "ears turning green" and "next time you get married" examples should be cut. Too silly.
Well, which examples do you disagree on?
The "Vomitrocious" example, but then again, I've always been a sucker for Sick Episode's.
I didn't find Vomitrocious very sad. Looking back, I think Prunella Gets it Twice could get a pass, but I'm still going to remove a lot of the non-sad moments. The page as-is is just ridiculous.
I just removed 188 spoiler tags from the Horus Heresy Awesome page. It is a series of over 50 books after all.
You didn't do it manually, did you? Because Itty Bitty Wiki Tools has a tool for it.
Manually. That would have been helpful at the time.
I cleaned a load of obvious misuse from Tearjerker.RWBY — zero context examples, Fridge, speculative troping.
There's still a lot of misuse left on that page, but the rest would need to go through here.
On the Luigi's Mansion 3 page, capturing Morty is listed as a tearjerker which seems like trope misuse to me (it's more Video Game Cruelty Potential in my opinion). Sure it's kinda sad, but is the bar for tearjerker really that low?
For context he's an optional boss that doesn't resist and gives no reward other than an achievement. Luigi seems a little bummed after catching him, but in a "dropped my ice cream on the floor" way.
Thoughts on Funny.Dem Bones Dem Dry Bones? Looks like someone thought moments pages need an example list akin to your standard work page.
As it stands, nothing on that page seems to refer to any actual funny moment anyway, so I vote for a cut unless someone familiar with the work can salvage it.
It is also unindexed and the only editor is the author of the fic themselves, which I believe is against the against the rules as funny are YMMV.
Edited by SebastianGray on Nov 25th 2019 at 5:11:05 PM
Given all of that, insta-nuke.
Looking further, the same is true of the fic's Fridge, Heartwarming, Nightmare Fuel and YMMV pages.
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How well does it match the trope?