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Hazbin Hotel pilot & Helluva Boss

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An animated series from Vivienne Medrano, it follows the escapades of the princess of Hell as she tries to curb hell's overpopulation by creating the titular hotel to redeem souls and get them into heaven.

First trailer.

For discussion of Hazbin Hotel (2024) please go here.

Edited by Tabs on Oct 14th 2023 at 3:44:53 AM

MagmaTeaMerry My Head Is On Fire from A forest somewhere Since: Sep, 2020
My Head Is On Fire
#4101: Jun 9th 2024 at 9:59:55 PM

[up] Well, I figured Sinners are sterile because of the potential Fridge Logic. I just don’t see WHY they’d be able to have children, and having a small child be born into a realm of eternal torment just because their parents sinned sounds pretty awful. But then again, I suppose that’d apply to the average Hellborn, as well - It’s not like they asked to exist.

And also, how would the aging of a Sinner’s child work, since Sinners don’t seem to age? Why would aging only apply to their kids? Would they stop aging when they hit adulthood?

If it’s revealed that Sinners aren’t sterile, then I’d honestly find that rather disturbing.

… Actually, that scene with Vaggie and the child becomes Fridge Horror no matter how you slice it, doesn’t it?

Edited by MagmaTeaMerry on Jun 9th 2024 at 7:01:33 PM

My AO3 profile. Let sleeping cats lie and be cute and calming.
AFan Since: Nov, 2022
#4102: Jun 9th 2024 at 10:15:40 PM

Weird how a good chunk of its worldbuilding was revealed in the livestreams before Hazbin Hotel became an official show, but you don't get much of it explained in the shows proper.

ReginaldOgron5 Est Ut Squimplex Ut from Two blocks down from the Undead Burg Since: Mar, 2022 Relationship Status: I want you to want me
Est Ut Squimplex Ut
#4103: Jun 9th 2024 at 11:25:53 PM

[up] Most of the Hazbin livestream stuff wouldn't come up naturally in Helluva Boss, which is more focused on developing the larger region of Hell and the universe's cosmology. I expect that the stuff in the livestreams will all be addressed in Hazbin (either unaltered or modified) eventually.

Wenn sie die Ente hierein lassen, lasse ich das Wasser hieraus!
ztyran (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4104: Jun 12th 2024 at 2:04:34 PM

I feel that mixing the two series would be easier if we knew when Helluva Boss takes place in the timeliness. For instance a comment about the team visiting Millie's family because of an early extermination taking place would help. Or in Season two of Hazbin Hotel, Vaggie complaining that some imps have been killing sinners on Earth being the reason the hotel is filled up. Just because direct crossovers are difficult, doesn't mean indirect references to the other show couldn't be done.

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4105: Jun 12th 2024 at 4:54:05 PM

I could see it as Helluva Boss' timeline starting when the show aired and Hazbin Hotel starting when it became a full on show. Basically an in-universe excuse for there to not be any crossover could be because the former takes place before the latter happens

ReginaldOgron5 Est Ut Squimplex Ut from Two blocks down from the Undead Burg Since: Mar, 2022 Relationship Status: I want you to want me
Est Ut Squimplex Ut
#4106: Jun 12th 2024 at 7:33:26 PM

In my opinion, this is a very underrated lyric from Stolas during "When I See Him":

"My entire life's been written in stone, he taught me that I could choose/he deserves the choice to stay or go, but it scares me to think what I'd lose"

Stolas, even while admitting that his agreement with Blitzo is weird and gross, is petrified by the idea that the man he loves—perhaps the only man he has ever loved his whole life—may not even give him the time of day unless he's being forced to. There's a cruel and poetic injustice in that which makes Stolas the character I'm the most intrigued by, since he's the only Helluva character who I feel comes close to being as morally complex as a Hazbin character (ok, that was mean, but you see my point). When Blitzo mocks and berates him, it seems to all but confirm his suspicion that Blitzo hated being his servant from the very beginning.

I've never understood how or why people try to boil Stolas down into "he's a cutesy gay birb who wouldn't hurt a fly UwU" or "He's an abusive father and cruel slaveowner aristocrat". Many of Stolas' problems are his own fault, but many of them aren't. Many were made worse by other people or are a product of his station. The very things that make Stolas fascinating are the things he's so heavily criticized for being—impulsive, romantical, and ultimately innocent at heart with a desire to do the right thing that many if not most in Hell lack.

Wenn sie die Ente hierein lassen, lasse ich das Wasser hieraus!
MagmaTeaMerry My Head Is On Fire from A forest somewhere Since: Sep, 2020
My Head Is On Fire
#4107: Jun 13th 2024 at 12:13:24 AM

[up] The way I see it, the pilot and the Murder Family scene REALLY colored a lot of people’s general perception of Stolas, and it’s fairly understandable. He may not have meant any actual harm in his following appearances, but when his introduction was so vulgar and seemed so blackmail-y (Seriously, the setup for the bubble bath scene in MF did NOT help, as mentioned repeatedly - Was he spying on Blitzo or was the bubble just meant to be a cool visual that ended up looking bad both in- and out of context? And why didn’t he pick up on the whispered urgency in Blitzo’s voice or the sounds of gunfire in the background?), all of his actions afterwards became filtered through that. And even then, his condescending demeanor towards Blitzo afterwards also didn’t help matters - Like, No Social Skills or not, how hard could it be to stop using a nickname when the other party has made it clear that they don’t like it? Just stop, dude!

Don’t get me wrong, I also enjoy how complex, flawed and multi-faceted Stolas is, but it’s hard to blame people for looking at him less sympathetically when his introduction did him no favors and his behavior towards Blitzo in Season 1 wasn't the best, even if he wasn’t aware of it himself. There’s miscommunication on both sides, yes, and some of Blitzo’s behavior hasn’t helped either, but the power imbalance combined with his early ”Creepy Bird Mouth”-behavior makes it very easy to put most of the reponsibility on Stolas.

Like I said earlier, the dude’s social skills are so shit that he can’t even read himself.

Edited by MagmaTeaMerry on Jun 13th 2024 at 9:21:51 PM

My AO3 profile. Let sleeping cats lie and be cute and calming.
Zalem Since: Mar, 2024
#4108: Jun 13th 2024 at 4:28:34 AM

[up] This exactly - and I'd argue that it was not just the pilot and murder family but most of season one as a whole that colored perceptions of him, up until Ozzie's at least.

He spends pre episode 7 characterized as 'deeply unhappy but also deeply flawed royal who does love Octavia and maybe genuinely enjoys Blitzo's company but enjoys sex with him a whole lot more'.

It's kind of whiplash inducing to have a character's establishing moment (in the first episode, not the pilot) being him using the fact Blitzo needs his book to run his business to suddenly change up the terms on him in order to get monthly sex from him, and not show a single shred of concern for Blitzo's safety, have him spend most of a season treating Blitzo like he's mainly solely interested in sex, then all of a sudden make a hard turn into Stolas as pining and genuinely in love.

I wouldn't dispute there are hints pre s1ep7 that Stolas does care for Blitzo, but the dominant impressions viewers are going to get from the first season as far as his relationship with Blitzo goes is of someone who is primarily interested in sex, seems to fetishize sleeping with imps in particular and has little respect for Blitzo's feelings or boundaries (calling him and his colleagues 'little', ignoring Blitzo being annoyed by the babytalk/calling him the petname Blitzy that he hates, outright calls Blitzo his 'little plaything', Blitzo literally has a panic button with his name on it I think in ep1, which says a lot about how safe he feels being alone with him) and is either happy or completely indifferent/ignorant with using their power imbalance to ensure Blitzo has to sleep or spend time with him.

Where season 2 could have slowly showed attempts by Stolas to treat Blitzo better up to breaking the deal, Seeing Stars has him totally bungle an opportunity to comfort Blitzo and the rest of the time they're apart.

I imagine this was done by the writers to build suspense because the audience knows the deal breaking conversation is coming, but as a result the attempts to show Stolas treating Blitzo as something other than a sex object have either been stuff the audience has been told and not shown (they apparently talk on the phone regularly, according to Blitzo, and Stolas has stopped with the X-rated rants) or it goes by too quick to see (the text chat logs where Stolas dances around saying what he actually wants). And either way some of the audience is not going to judge Blitzo that hard for being cold to Stolas when the deal is still ongoing.

Which is why for a lot of people watching the last ep it felt like Stolas was a hypocrite at best and delusional at worst for not getting why Blitzo's first instinct is that it's all a sex thing, or being hurt that Blitzo thinks of him as treating him like a toy. For one viewers remember what's onscreen way more than stuff we're just told or don't even get a minute to see and take in and for another it's hard to tell if the show is ever going to directly confront how Stolas was written in season 1 or if we're just supposed to think Blitzo's attitude towards royalty is some generalized, unreasonable dislike independent of what Stolas has done.

Thing is I totally agree with both points made above - I think Stolas could be a fascinating character but that's kind of contingent on how the next few episodes go. Are the writers actually going to have him confront the full breadth of the ways he's objectified and demeaned Blitzo and actually grow and change from it? Can he offer to listen to Blitzo's feelings instead of making a grandstanding romantic gesture and being hurt when he doesn't get the response he wants, or without his tears being used to suggest Blitzo has gone too far when he naturally responds to naked hypocrisy with anger? Will he notice that other imps are sentient beings and not just disregard them or casually mistreat them, like he does with his own butler?

Or is it going to be framed like him trying to be nicer since Ozzie's and Season 2 makes him roping his first friend into a Sex for Services deal and calling him his plaything all OK, and expect Blitzo to just get over it?

(and for the record I'm aware Blitzo has unhealthy coping mechanisms of his own, I'm mostly concerned in this post with how much rewriting Stolas' character has undergone and how he still has a lot of character development to go if this relationship is ever going to look like something the audience should root for)

Proglottid Since: Mar, 2010
#4109: Jun 13th 2024 at 5:27:28 AM

I get the feeling the idea meant to be presented to us was that for a while Stolas was indeed content with their transactional relationship, because it WAS an outlet from an awful marriage, but the more things deteriorated at home the more he realized he did want a more fulfilling relationship, and he is a privileged, naive noble that just like Blitzo spends so much stewing in his own tangle of traumas and character flaws that he doesn't pay nearly enough attention to the few people that are important to him.

It's just, it could all been shown better

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#4110: Jun 13th 2024 at 6:07:13 AM

I think there's also the fact that (granted as a retcon, not a change to any plot details, just an added element) Stolas genuinely thought that was what Blitzo liked (as shown by his seduction of Stolas in The Circus). This isn't to absolve Stolas of blame, he should have realised that Blitzo was clearly uncomfortable (it's likely that the fact it allowed an outlet from his marriage is what made him blind to this, but that's no excuse, though it is sympathetic). He spent years married to an abusive woman who hated him and who he (seemingly, his sexuality is unclear but The Circus implies he's gay) isn't attracted to, so Blitzo provided someone who (at least pretended) to be attracted to him, and someone he could be attracted to. It's just neither party expected genuine feelings to emerge, which made this mutually transactional relationship (Blitzo for the book, Stolas for affection) much more messy.

Zalem Since: Mar, 2024
#4111: Jun 13th 2024 at 7:28:09 AM

[up] Yeah, I think this is where what The Circus added in ended up causing more problems.

When it seemed like Stolas and Blitzo never knew one another it was a pretty easy to understand story - two strangers have a one night stand and since it's the first time Stolas ever liked sleeping with someone, he engineered a situation where it could happen again. Stolas in season 1 doesn't read like he's fooling himself into believing Blitzo was really into him, but more like someone who just starts catching feelings over time and wants Blitzo to want him back in the same way without realizing how the transactional nature of the relationship has heavily affected Blitzo's perception of him.

When it gets retconned they do know each other as kids from season 2 onwards, it gets kind of odd. Now Stolas isn't someone who was well aware it was just sex to begin with and caught feelings, he's written to have been in love with Blitz the entire time. The show wants us to assume that Stolas thought the sex was what Blitz liked due to their first encounter in The Circus, but making that make sense with his season 1 self means the audience also has to believe Stolas is so dense he never noticed the multiple times Blitzo looked annoyed or outright told him to stop doing something. All the times Blitzo pushed back on his behaviour just apparently never once factored into what he assumed Blitzo thought about him or what he wanted from him, for an entire season.

It's YMMV which is the worse thing to believe, writing-wise: either Stolas knew Blitzo wasn't super comfortable was his flirting but kept doing it because their arrangement meant he could (more in line with his season 1 self) or Stolas didn't know and was just so dense that he thought Blitz was just playing hard to get or something when he'd tell him repeatedly 'no flirting when I'm working' or 'use my proper name', so it's a shock to him whenever he realizes that isn't the case (more like his season 2 self). Personally I feel like the second reading accidentally makes it worse, because it means they've essentially written Stolas as someone with basically no real emotional intelligence who struggles to understand basic concepts like 'when I tell you not to do something or that I don't like something, you should take it seriously' and then turns around and acts shocked or upset when people are frustrated with him.

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#4112: Jun 13th 2024 at 7:34:50 AM

"It's YMMV which is the worse thing to believe, writing-wise: either Stolas knew Blitzo wasn't super comfortable was his flirting but kept doing it because their arrangement meant he could (more in line with his season 1 self) or Stolas didn't know and was just so dense that he thought Blitz was just playing hard to get"

I think that, primarily, Stolas is convinced that Blitzo is playing hard to get. He probably thinks the transaction is just part of the foreplay (probably using some mental gymnastics to get to that conclusion after he stole the book after they had sex). There's also probably the element that he doesn't want to believe that Blitzo doesn't want him, he needs that escape from his miserable marriage (Blitzo has the opposite problem with people, he can't believe they would want him).

With the context of The Circus in mind, Stolas' phone call in Murder Family feels more like his attempt at getting a second date (it's just he doesn't really understand how BDSM works in regard to being 'transactional'), his assumption that Blitzo loved it as much as he did and that the 'transaction' will provide an excuse for both of them. This isn't to justify Stolas, he should know and it's awful how he treats Blitzo, it's just why I still find him sympathetic and why I think The Circus, though obviously something added in later, still makes sense in the narrative.

Edited by king15 on Jun 13th 2024 at 2:36:42 PM

Zalem Since: Mar, 2024
#4113: Jun 13th 2024 at 9:05:54 AM

Yeah, I think this is why the whole thing has started feeling like a case of Unfortunate Implications to some fans even outside of the problems inherent with the full moon deal and the power imbalance, especially given the way the 'playing hard to get' trope has been evaluated over time as well as the understanding of consent. (One issue I have with the fandom at large is this notion that Blitzo having consented to sex once with Stolas means he's duty-bound to find it reasonable that Stolas acts like his consent is assured in the future, even with all the power imbalance factors involved.)

The writing essentially wants to think Stolas' position or attitude is understandable at minimum and maybe even sympathetic. But it requires a huge amount of mental backends on his part to think that he not only deluded himself that Blitzo wanted him after he stole Stolas' book immediately after their night together (given that Blitzo broke into his house, did Stolas keep believing Blitzo really did break in specifically to see him? did it never once cross his mind that Blitzo was there for the book the entire time?) but he continued to delude himself that 'oh, Blitzy's just playing hard to get and he actually wants me' despite all evidence to the contrary, including photos he had on his phone where Blitzo looks completely miserable.

Looking at the phone call in Murder Family as Stolas trying to get a second date dials up how warped Stolas' perception of reality is. He's so blind to the power he has over Blitzo through the book that it takes him an entire season to switch onto the fact that Blitzo feels Stolas just wants sex out of him and even Stolas' attempts to rectify the problem in Full Moon show his perception of things is somehow still incredibly warped given that he can't compute why Blitzo assumed it was just another sex thing at first.

Going back to the 'playing hard to get' thing I want to change tack from Murder Family for a sec to Loo Loo Land. It starts with Stolas calling up Blitzo for bodyguard work and being inappropriate over the phone, as usual - and when Blitzo doesn't jump at the opportunity Stolas takes another tack, saying he'll pay him because he knows money will motivate Blitzo to come.

To Blitzo, this is a job - which he makes explicit by telling Stolas straight off the bat that his crew is there to work and not to try screwing him in the park. Stolas doesn't even let him finish - he just cuts Blitzo off with a demeaning comment and spends the rest of the episode flirting with him despite Blitzo's protests. At a certain point it feels less like Stolas believes Blitzo is playing hard to get (especially given how Blitzo's tone is very different than it was in The Circus) and more like Stolas is just ignoring his reactions and is in love with the fantasy of what he wants his life to be.

I'll have to agree to disagree, anyway - I don't think the stuff added in The Circus fits naturally with the story up til season 1 at all for numerous reasons and I don't find the hoops Stolas' brain jumps through to justify what he does or how he thinks all that sympathetic at all, but I think he still has the potential to be an interesting character. They're not gonna make him an outright villain where his entitlement over Blitzo spills into hostility, so the only way to make him interesting now imo is have him actually develop out of his Selective Obliviousness and show real empathy for others. If the show spends the next few episodes explaining why he shouldn't have to change but can still date Blitzo, though, that's just gonna be frustrating to me.

Edited by Zalem on Jun 13th 2024 at 9:08:07 AM

MrMediaGuy2 Since: Jun, 2015
#4114: Jun 13th 2024 at 9:14:25 AM

Honestly, I don't know why people are still talking about Stolas's behavior in Murder Family so much to this day. It's a remnant of his behavior in the no-longer-canon pilot. I would understand if Stolas was STILL acting like that in the later episodes, but it seems people are awfully concerned about an example of Early-Installment Weirdness.

Zalem Since: Mar, 2024
#4115: Jun 13th 2024 at 9:41:53 AM

[up] Pardon me if I sound a bit frustrated here, but I think I already explained above why people are still talking about it and demonstrated that Stolas WAS still acting like that in later episodes.

Stolas consistently acts this way towards Blitzo (demeaning and objectifying at turns) far longer than just Murder Family. It turns up in his appearances from episodes s1-6 and a little bit in s2e2. Stolas calls Blitzo his plaything as late as Truth Seekers, s1e6 (the 6th episode of an 8 episode season) - I don't think it's accurate to dismiss it as Early-Installment Weirdness and expect fans to just forget about it. A lot of the responses I've seen to the line 'I think so very highly of you. I didn't realize you think so low of me' were people bringing up this moment from Truth Seekers specifically (or other instances of calling him 'little imp' and variations of such that happened after s1e1), not just things that happened in the pilot or Murder Family.

It's not exactly a remnant of the pilot if he's characterized mostly one way for the vast majority of s1.

Also even if it was just Murder Family where's like this, people are still talking about it because the deal set up in Murder Family has been a pretty big plot point across the entire show. We're getting near the end of s2 and Stolas has only just undone the deal; why wouldn't fans be still debating it?

Anyway, I don't just wanna repeat myself ad nauseam so I'll just recommended this video instead - his arguments are well considered and cover the whole show to this point:

Edited by Zalem on Jun 13th 2024 at 9:43:17 AM

ReginaldOgron5 Est Ut Squimplex Ut from Two blocks down from the Undead Burg Since: Mar, 2022 Relationship Status: I want you to want me
Zalem Since: Mar, 2024
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#4118: Jun 13th 2024 at 12:55:23 PM

I dare someone make that red link blue

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Super_Weegee Since: Feb, 2019
#4119: Jun 19th 2024 at 3:11:45 PM

There’s been an ongoing debate whether Stolas and Blitzo fall under Unintentionally Unsympathetic or Unintentionally Sympathetic as of Full Moon, and a mod recommended consulting people here to get a consensus on the entries.

Feel free to discuss it here in the show’s cleanup thread

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#4120: Jun 19th 2024 at 3:13:38 PM

I'm of the view that neither are unintentionally unsympathetic or unintentionally sympathetic, I find both as flawed and sympathetic as I imagine Medrano intended. However, YMMV isn't about what I think, but what a large section of the people who have watched the show think, and a large section (or at least very vocal section) find Stolas more unsympathetic than intended, and vice versa with Blitso, so that should probably be mentioned.

ReginaldOgron5 Est Ut Squimplex Ut from Two blocks down from the Undead Burg Since: Mar, 2022 Relationship Status: I want you to want me
Est Ut Squimplex Ut
#4121: Jun 19th 2024 at 3:49:33 PM

[up][up] If I may add my two cents, if we absolutely must add a UU example it should be as short and succinct as possible. There are already consistent problems with walls of text on HB's YMMV pages.

I am also of the opinion that much of the supposed Unintentionally Unsympathetic example concerning Stolas comes from an incorrect or uncharitable overanalysis of his actions in large part (and that Blitzo shouldn't necessarily get one just because Stolas has one), but I don't want to get involved with the weekslong argument that's been going on on this website so I'll refrain from further comment.

Wenn sie die Ente hierein lassen, lasse ich das Wasser hieraus!
Elfkaiser Since: May, 2013
#4122: Jun 19th 2024 at 5:10:05 PM

Video by Ayy Lmao covering news from Adam Neylan about upcoming Helluva shorts.

Basically there will be three Helluva shorts within the span of the three months between Apology Tour and Ghostfuckers a.k.a. One per month.

ReginaldOgron5 Est Ut Squimplex Ut from Two blocks down from the Undead Burg Since: Mar, 2022 Relationship Status: I want you to want me
AFan Since: Nov, 2022
#4124: Jun 19th 2024 at 5:38:38 PM

I'm really hoping that one of them involves Stella. We really need some focus on her.

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#4125: Jun 19th 2024 at 5:44:31 PM

I'd love to see some of the IMP's victims meeting up in hell to rant about IMP, that would be fun.


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