An animated series from Vivienne Medrano, it follows the escapades of the princess of Hell as she tries to curb hell's overpopulation by creating the titular hotel to redeem souls and get them into heaven.
For discussion of Hazbin Hotel (2024) please go here.
Edited by Tabs on Oct 14th 2023 at 3:44:53 AM
We could probably just make this a HB thread, right? Like, there's not enough content to mine from the well of a pilot with dubious but probable canonicity, right?
Wenn sie die Ente hierein lassen, lasse ich das Wasser hieraus!![]()
Pretty much kind of going to reiterate a point
I made on this matter.
The thread literally starts out talking about the Hazbin pilot and has several posts/pages dedicated to discussing it.
Granted, it has morphed over time to include Helluva Boss and some other Spindlehorse/Vivziepop stuff due to being in the same universe, there being no other place to talk about it, and etc. but that still doesn't change the fact that among the literal thousands of posts in this thread, a good number of them talk about the Hazbin pilot.
Given the situation, making this thread solely about Helluva Boss would require more than just a title change. There's sorting out posts that talk about the Hazbin pilot, Helluva Boss, general Hellaverse stuff, and etc. in order to not confuse newcomers and such. Sure, people can just jump to the last post of the thread to talk about Helluva Boss but that's not going to stop people from asking why in a thread that's supposedly solely about Helluva Boss, there are several posts/pages talking about the Hazbin Hotel and they had to jump to just get to the supposed title subject.
As such, the thread's title and such as it currently is should just be that, and as long as certain posts related to Hazbin don't stray too much into the series proper then they're okay.
- Still talking about the Hazbin pilot even though most of latest posts are about Helluva Boss: Okay.
- Talking about updates regarding the Hazbin series proper: Okay to a tiny degree but really should be just placed in the appropriate thread in the future.
- Talking about the Hellaverse in general aka across both series: Okay.
- Talking about stuff that only happens in Hazbin Hotel like Charlie's relationship with her parents: Need to be moved right away unless it's an older post posted before the creation of the Hazbin thread.
Fair enough. As long as we have a paradigm.
You know one thing that really bothers me about this stupid "[X] if it was written by Vivziepop" meme?
It's not only the fact that it completely ignores the existence of Zoophobia and the "Bad Luck Jack" short which have no cussing or sex jokes (Some violence, sure, but it's very standard cartoon faire), nor the fact that people use that to claim that the stuff they like is "better" when they're comparing apples and oranges (It's not enough to just like something, oh no - You must also claim superiority over it. What a stupid concept)... but it also ignores that Viv, like, isn't the sole writer/creator of Helluva Boss.
I know Viv is the main creator, but do these people not know or are they straight-up ignoring that Brandon Rogers is the co-creator and a writer on the show? Have these people seen his Youtube sketches? HB is almost quaint in comparison to some of his stuff ("Not you, Melissa, you're never getting molested", anyone?), but nobody rags on him for it. Or any of the other writers, for that matter. Instead, all of the "blame" for how the Hellaverse is written is solely placed on Viv. And, you know, it's stupid to act surprised that a show literally set in Hell would have adult humor.
Like I've said before, the woman is no saint and rightfully deserves to be called out on some of the stuff she's done, but this meme feels like it's just yet another excuse for her haters to try to bully her and spread that disproportionate hatred they have for her to others.
EDIT: I realized just now that this post could be interpreted as me wanting the other writers to get harrassed, too. That’s ABSOLUTELY NOT what I mean, to be clear.
Edited by MagmaTeaMerry on Dec 20th 2023 at 6:08:27 PM
My AO3 profile. Let sleeping cats lie and be cute and calming.
In Bruges if it were written by Vivziepop
Oh wait it's literally the EXACT SAME (If anything, the race jokes and references to "poofs" would get toned down)
Wenn sie die Ente hierein lassen, lasse ich das Wasser hieraus!- Hype Backlash: The show has amassed a large fanbase to its vibrant animation, catchy songs, and interesting premise. However, a combination of some die-hard fans have overpraising the show ok[sic] certain social media platforms and the fandom's overall bombardment on YouTube caused some viewers to be skeptical and look at the show in a more critical lens. After doing so, said skeptical viewers found the show to have numerous world-building inconsistencies, highly repetitive and mediocre writing, and lack of proper characterization given to some characters such as Loona, Millie, or Octavia.
Wanted to check these are valid.
- "numerous world-building inconsistencies": I've never seen significant complaints outside the pilot. What complaints I have heard are the unique setting being underutilized.
- "highly repetitive and mediocre writing": Going over the same plot points I've seen complaints about. Mediocre I'm not sure on/think might need specifics.
- "lack of proper characterization given to some characters": Replace with lack of screentime/focus and it's valid.
Thoughts? Also question this:
- They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character: Millie. (…) What seems like her focus episode in "Unhappy Campers" also comes across as, again, more of a Moxxie episode as he is the one who makes all the mistakes and has to learn to support her when she gets the spotlight.
My impression was at first fans were happy it gave her a big role and deconstructed her status as this. Did something change? Or is this another example of Hype Backlash?
Yeah, I'd say that the episode isn't Moxxie-focused per se. Millie does get her time in the spotlight.
It's just that the handling of her was... clumsy, in my opinion.
I think I understand the intent - I just think it could've been executed better. Because the way it's handled, I totally understand if people got the impression that a) Millie's Character Development and focus in the episode felt more like a meta-commentary than "proper" development and thus felt like it didn't make much sensenote and b) the writers have so little clue what to do with Millie that their idea of "fleshing out her character" translates to "pair her up with Moxxie again, but this time hand him the Idiot Ball so that she looks better in comparison."
There is perhaps a kernel of truth in there (The writers do seem to struggle a bit with giving the girls things to do - Heck, Fizzarolli has gotten more development in two episodes than either Millie or Loona have in one and a half seasons), but it's not an entirely fair observation, either...? And it's going to be four seasons - Just give the writers some time, I'm sure they'll be able to give the girls some good development.
... Ah, maybe that veered into off-topic territory. Still, my point is that there's a difference between "this character didn't get any focus" and "I didn't like the focus the character was given", and I feel like this veers into the latter, maybe...? There could also be the fact that Moxxie and Millie are often paired up for episodes (I mean, they're a married couple, so I guess that's not so surprising), and Moxxie having had more development, or is at least a more fleshed-out character, means that his presence might, I don't know, stand out more in comparison...?
Edited by MagmaTeaMerry on Jan 3rd 2024 at 9:00:24 PM
My AO3 profile. Let sleeping cats lie and be cute and calming.If I can address some points (but feel free to push back):
- world building inconsistencies: > off the top of my head Exes & Oohs was a big offender for this. Why is there a mafia (i.e. an underground crime gang who have to operate secretly because there are police and laws opposing them) in Hell, where everyone is presumably just doing crime the whole time? Why would they need to organise secretly? Do they just like the mafia aesthetic? But more seriously, why are there JAILS in Hell? This makes zip sense and never gets remotely explained. > most of the stuff about the Goetia family, at least to me. Stella implies there will be a price to pay from the rest of the family if she and Stolas divorce but so far Stella is the only one taking hits out on him and etc. > to that point, is higher/lower classes dating a big deal or not? a lot of hay is made about how it's a scandal Stolas is sleeping with Blitzo in s1, but the last episode has a hellhound dating the Sin of Gluttony (and hellhounds are implied to be even lower than imps, given they're treated like adoptive pets) and no one cares all that much so far about Fizz and Ozzie being together (Mammon implies something will come of it, but it's entirely possible the consequences will melt into nothingness the same way as with the Goetia family)
- repetitive: > a lot of episodes feel like retreads. Loo Loo Land and Seeing Stars both focus on Via being let down by Stolas, IMP gets involved, they reconcile, he promises to do better, both include some mention of/sequence set in space. Harvest Moon and Western Energy both focus on Striker attempting to kill Stolas, but the second time little is moved forward except Blitzo learning Stolas can get hurt...which he should have already known because otherwise why was he fighting to stop Striker shooting Stolas with a holy rifle? He must have already known Stolas can die otherwise there'd be no point getting in Striker's way
- lack of proper characterization: > this can be debated whether it's a screentime issue or not, but I would argue it's a valid point because the writers are choosing who to prioritize and can fix characterization issues BY giving more screentime. As mentioned elsewhere Loona (who's practically been a non person in the first half of s2) and Millie are chronically underdeveloped. I wouldn't count Unhappy Campers as qualifying as a Millie episode (the development is all Moxxie's, Millie didn't have an internal conflict or need to grow or change) so as of now Loona has had two eps focusing on her and Millie 0, or 1 if you're being more generous than me
I agree with the above that the writing was fumbled with Millie in Unhappy Campers - it feels like the writers just don't know what to do with her because she's basically self-actualized already. She's not particularly worried or stressed about anything, we don't know what her dreams are, we don't even know what she likes all that much outside of violence.
I do have to disagree with the above that it's not a fair criticism, though - Millie and Loona are main characters and should have been developed well before s3, assuming they get fairly little in the back half of s2.
If the writers wanted to give the girls development they could have hashed out some backstory for Millie and planned the budget so Loona could have more of a presence in the first half of s2. They're the main characters & members of IMP, it speaks to deprioritizing them as characters that a side character/plot device has been promoted to deuteragonist/secondary main character at this point with a massive amount of focus episodes (Stolas) and Blitzo's childhood friend got two focus episodes back to back. This is also part of the Hype Backlash, of course - it has been pointed out that female characters like Millie, Loona and others such as Blitzo's sister & mother and Moxxie's mother have been consistently underwritten and under utilized compared to the male characters, or they're just flat like Glitz & Glam (YMMV, of course, but it's a very clear pattern at this point and I'm not going to be confident about Millie and Loona getting development until the writers prove otherwise).
Edited by zoopyDoopy on Jan 4th 2024 at 3:53:06 AM
also, the mediocre writing bit - to keep it short since I've gone too long-winded already, I have seen some who weren't super onboard at s1, partially due to swearing/humor, some due to not liking the character all that much (Blitzo splits some on whether he's annoying instead of fun but massively flawed), but there are others - like me - who thought the show did have a lot of promise but that s2 is squandering all of it. I can get into more specifics if that would help? but a lot of critique is out there that covers it already. I'd recommended the Diregentleman (now called We are Not alive, if I remember right) YT channel for their s2 vids personally, they were rooting for the show in s1 and try to be very even handed and fair in their responses.
I thought it made sense an imp would be running a Mafia. Imps are basically on the bottom of the Hell caste system, so any attempt to organize power would have to with less-than-legal means.
But then he tried to extort one of the leaders of Hell and a deadly Sin no less and... nothing happens to Crimson. It went too far in the other direction.
#IceBearForPresidentThat's kinda my point though - the less than legal means bit. Why is there any concept of illegal or legal in Hell? If it's a collection of Hellborn and the world's sinners, aren't most Hell residents committing crimes openly, all of the time? (for instance, there's a joke about Blitzo, Verosika and Tex laughing at the idea of 'calling HR' which suggests Human Resources is not a thing in Hell because no one cares if your work conditions are fair or not because everything is dog eat dog. Someone also gets run over in the opening frames of Hazbin so presumably doing a hit and run isn't a crime).
In other words, the depiction of Hell so far has been less punishment for vice/sin and more the assumption that being surrounded by other sinners means everyone is engaging in vice/sin all the time so you have to harden up just to survive. In this environment, why would there even be a notion that some things are legal or illegal if everyone is committing crimes all the time?
And if there are some things are that illegal, the worldbuilding is so poor that we don't know what those things are, where they differ from Earth laws and if it only applies to the Hellborn rings and not where the sinners live. That's my point, it's just confusing. The notion of there being prisons in Hell also doesn't come up in any other episodes yet - Moxxie got thrown in there for stealing, which is weird because again, don't people do that all the time in Hell? - and we don't know why Blitzo was in prison, too.
It's the kind of thing that just makes more questions - does it matter that Blitzo and Moxxie have criminal records? Is that even a thing in Hell? Do courts exist? Who runs them? Etc etc. Not to mention that Blitzo has been using the Grimoire, which Stolas does explicitly mention as being against the rules, but no one ever mentions what the penalty is if this is discovered. And that's kind of a problem when the engine driving the story thus far has super vague stakes attached to it.
This all coincides with another thing you could file under mediocre writing - the show keeps signalling that things will be important and have consequences but then it never does. - CHERUB kicked out of heaven? Never comes back. - DHORK have proof on film of demons? Hasn't come back. - Moxxie and Blitzo promise to try and become better friends? There's no meaningful change in how Blitzo treats him in future episodes. - Moxxie acts like it's a betrayal of trust that Blitzo crashes his anniversary date? They never talk about it again. - Blitzo calls Stolas out for treating him like a sex object after Stolas used the fact Blitzo was getting shot at to pressure him into a sex for services deal? Not even alluded to in Seeing Stars, plus I'll personally be impressed if Stolas admits to any wrongdoing when he finally calls off the full moon deal, given the way all his character flaws are being swept under the rug instead of used for development in s2. - It's implied there will be consequences from the rest of the Goetia family, not just Stella, if the divorce goes through? So far just a whole season of Stella trying to get him killed, which she then gives up on anyway so it was a waste of time (though I want to see the divorce plotline end since I'd rather the writers do anything else, honestly). - Stolas gets seen at a high end club with Blitzo, an imp? No hit to his reputation, even though we know newspapers/papparazzi exist in Hell because they turn up to the hospital when he gets hurt. - Speaking of: Stolas is badly hurt. No, he's not, he's up and running fine in the next ep.
And so on. The series is so disorganised and all over the shop that it's impossible to know which plotlines to be invested in since they might just be dropped for or vanish for episodes at a time. The writers admitted not knowing if they would make more than a season, but at least s1 felt like it had a cohesive theme - a lot of episodes centred around Blitzo running into people that he's burnt bridges with and also focused on his struggles getting set up with a new life through his business. It felt like the season had built up to it when he scrolled through his photo roll and realised how lonely his life is now.
To me S2 has had no idea how to build on any of it. S1 wasn't free of flaws (it's on the no consequences list a couple of times)and that's why the writing feels mediocre. The inconsistent worldbuilding really hasn't helped that; it's why it's a common critique that Hell just feels like Earth but with lousier people and more red. It's hard for the audience to engage when there's a vague idea of how the rules even work.
Edit: got long again but since someone asked for if the points on Hype Backlash can be substantiated, these are my two cents. I won't post this long again in future to avoid clogging the thread for people who still like the show more than I do.
Edited by zoopyDoopy on Jan 5th 2024 at 2:31:04 AM
Pride City is a Wretched Hive - that's where all the sinners are - but lower standards of violence aside the rest of Hell seems relatively functional as a society. Not a crime free-for-all.
Less generally Hell, and more specifically Greed, but that's a point. The other Sins might or might not maintain the illusion of a fair system, but Mammon in particular only cares about money and clearly makes no attempt to govern Greed. If someone steals from him it seems like it would be out of character for him to not just destroy them out of hand.
Edited by Eagal on Jan 5th 2024 at 5:44:30 AM
Mammon probably makes a mint off of the prison profits, too - I wouldn't be surprised if basically everything in Greed ends up in his pockets sooner or later.
And perhaps that's why the mafia exists and needs to be on the down-low - If Mammon knew that somebody else was making money on his turf, he'd probably be on that faster than a blink and demand "a cut" (ie, all) of the profits. And as earlier mentioned, Crimson is an imp, one of Hell's lowest castes; He's building an empire and gaining power, and that takes a while. Mammon poking his nose into it would probably undo basically all of his efforts in a matter of seconds.
(As for why it's in Greed in that case? Risk VS. Reward, I'd say - Greed would probably be the Ring where there's a lot of money to be made, and if you live in Greed, you'd probably be just as hungry for things as the Big Greedy Bastard himself. The desire for money makes people to stupid things, after all.)
So, no, I don't think it matters if Blitzo and Moxxie have criminal records in terms of them living in a place of Sin already. They were probably just another cog in Mammon's money-making machine.
As for the girls - You know an idea I'd like to see explored with Millie? One that I'm actually writing a fic about now BUT I'M NOT BIASED SHUT YOUR FACE!
I think it'd make more sense if her insecurity was tied to her Wrath origins.
Wrath is a Ring where physical might reigns supreme, and it's valued above everything else to the point where her family blamed her for getting hurt when (fittingly) her rage got the better of her during the Harvest Moon Festival when Striker attacked Moxxie and allowed her to get overpowered. Millie has prided herself on her strength, so in my mind, having her insecurities being tied to the thing she was taught to value would make sense.
After all, what if her strength isn't enough one day? Or if she ends up in her situation where it's of no use or, worse, is used against her? Blood-thirsty as she is, I could imagine that such a thought ("disgracing" her roots or her wrath being used to harm somebody she cares about) would terrify her.
Is it an original idea? Well, no, not in its base form, but it's at least a base to work off of.
Edited by MagmaTeaMerry on Jan 5th 2024 at 5:59:14 PM
My AO3 profile. Let sleeping cats lie and be cute and calming.The thing with Millie is I think it's not always terrible if one character is more of an Applejack - like, as a support to others is where they work best. Applejack struggled to carry solo episodes in MLP so the best ones involving her were where her tendency to be honest was played against her - like she wanted to tell a family member what they were doing was dangerous without letting them down, she'd failed at something after wanting to win and do her best, etc. So playing Millie's traits against her could be a good way to come up with Millie-centric episodes.
Problem is, she was supposed to be one of the lead characters. And with both her and Loona, plus other female characters on the show being so underutilized, it sticks out even more. If S1 was the Blitzo season then S2 has been eaten by Stolas - but he wasn't a main character, he's just been promoted to the point that he got his own flashback ep before Blitzo even did (since it's mostly his POV).
Like the thing with her having the same ex as Moxxie. Easy way to give her depth - but the episode is all about Moxxie (that's another retread/repetition thing, too, both Harvest Moon and Exes and Ooohs look like Millie eps at the start but are Moxxie episodes) and we don't even get to see her backstory with Chazz, so it comes off more like an excuse for Blitzo to want to sleep with him and then suspect Chazz is shady. It was apparently cut for time but I'm not confident it will be revealed in future atm, because there's not much reason to return to Chazz plot-wise if he's sleeping with the fishes, so it's kind of a tradeoff of not having Chazz be another loose end plot-wise (though Crimson is still hanging around).
The fact that there's a hierarchy at all implies there must be some kind of power structure - and by extension, laws - in place. Otherwise the only rational alternative is complete anarchy with the top dogs ruling as warlords more than anything.
So fair enough, though once I bemoan how Helluva Boss takes it too far in the other direction and depicts Hell as just Detroit with a red sky and Hell's citizens as if normal people with full body rashes and horns.
#IceBearForPresidentThat's kind of it, really - there's plenty that implies an interesting setting with some rules, just not enough to know what's going on or how much peril the characters are in sometimes. Like I had personally assumed the hierarchy was determined by how powerful a demon was, with the Sins being at the top and then followed by the Goetias. But then there's odd details like Loona, a Hellhound, being able to use the grimoire to open portals, so that suggests other species can use magic artifacts which ought to have some repercussions for how exactly this hierarchy is enforced - but it's never mentioned or explained. Plus the rarity of the book for travelling between worlds is lessened by the existence of things like the Asmodean crystals - they're obviously really powerful but Blitzo somehow manages to find a random imp in an alley who has one, but Stolas himself has to ask Asmodeus for a favour to get one
Dude, I might be overthinking things because I have some wine in my system, but your "Detroit" comment just made me have what feels like a Galaxy-Brain moment of clarity.
Namely, that Viv lives and was raised in (To my knowledge, I might be wrong) the US.
Of course Hell's only prison (that we know of for now) would be in Greed - Where Viv lives, prisons are a for-profit system - It's only natural that her as well as the other writers' perspective as American citizens would color some of their depiction of Hell! Of course the Sin of Greed would use a system that would ensure that he makes money off of it!
Now, I suppose this observation might do nothing but prove your point, but... suddenly, it makes so much sense to me!
Edited by MagmaTeaMerry on Jan 5th 2024 at 10:45:23 AM
My AO3 profile. Let sleeping cats lie and be cute and calming.

(sharing from western animation thread)
The official poster
has been revealed. Also, there's apparently going to be a new trailer tomorrow. I guess we now have something to update the main page with.