Fantastic Beasts: The Crimes of Grindelwald

I don't even think he wants to save wizards, he's just looking for an excuse to wipe out muggles. "Grindelwald wants to stop the Holocaust" is just one of those dumb things people made up when JK Rowling's controversial views came out, like "Goblet of Fire is slavery apologia."

I get that not everyone likes this franchise, but "Harry Potter was Always Bad, Actually" feels less like an informed, good-faith reading and more like an excuse to not grapple with the fact that the people who make the stuff we like are human and can disappoint us. But that's probably a bit too heavy for this thread.

Provided you can avoid paying for it, I recommend Secrets of Dumbledore much more than Crimes of Grindelwald. It's my favorite of the trilogy, partly because I like Mads Mikkelsen much more than Johnny Depp and partly because it addresses most of my biggest problems with TCoG, especially regarding Queenie.

I plan to watch Secrets of Dumbledore in a couple of days.

I agree that people pretending that the Harry Potter franchise has always been terrible is annoying. And there are enough Unfortunate Implications in the franchise without having to invent new ones.

Go tell that to the literature thread lol

Anyway I always thought they shouldn't have made Gridenwald related to this movie. I guess they needed that hook but at the very least should have made the first movie self contained.

Grindwald wanting to stop the Holocaust is the only legitimately interesting idea in the film.

Making him Magneto versus Dumbledore's Professor X is actually a cool plot twist.

I feel it was dropped in part because JK didn't want to dive into why the Wizards didn't stop the Holocaust or intervene in WW 2.

Especially since her RL politics would portray the good guys as right for not intervening in the Holocaust.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Nov 27th 2023 at 3:41:59 AM

I mean Rowling is a dedicated anti-fascist. She's just also a bigot.

Sadly, people are their own antithesis and it's tragic as well as appalling.

Hell, it's the inspiration for MAUS. The author dealing with the fact his father was a survivor of the Holocaust and also a racist.

I'd read the shit out of Dumbledore and his fellow British wizards fucking with the Nazis with magic.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 26th 2023 at 12:39:20 PM

Well yeah, it's human nature that JK can be progressive in some areas but also agree with Fascist ideals like bigotry and keeping the "wrong" people out of your society.

It certainly shows in Fantastic Beasts.

Yeah, I would have liked Grindelwald to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist but I heard that plot was dropped.

Yeah, in Dumbledore's secrets, he's just a bog standard wants to enslave muggles bad guy and doesn't mention anything about the future visions about World War 2 or the holocaust in his election campaign.

He just relies on getting a magical creature to bow to him so he can get enough popular support to get elected Wizarding leader.

Grinderwald was wizard Hitler before Voldemort

But not release date wise which is more important writing wise.

Was never on the hate train for Crimes of Grindelwald. Secrets of Dumbledore was better certainly. All three while I like them suffer from the same problems though: tone and focus.

I was on the hate train for Crimes way before JK outed herself as a transphobe.

I genuinely thought it was the worst movie of 2018 I saw.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Nov 26th 2023 at 6:02:50 PM

I think this movie is awful but also hilariously awful. I couldn’t stop laughing while watching this crazy movie.

Also can anyone help find a Harry Potter general thread? Preferably for the movies? Cause I can’t find such a thread.

I hate that Rowling's a despicable person in real life. I love this series and now I feel guilty for showing it any support. That said, I make it a point to not give it money now though until WB hopefully convinces her to sell them the rights.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 26th 2023 at 2:16:18 AM

I think the anti-Semitism Rowling has endorsed in her video game since would make my criticism different on second viewing, but at the time my main issue with this film that made it such a difficult watch was that it's pacing is just terrible, grinding to a halt so to have someone tell their backstory, only to have that backstory to be immediately ruled to be wrong and have someone else reveal their backstory.

It also utterly sidelined Tina, which I later learnt was likely a political move from Rowling based on political disagreements with the actress.

It also further struggled to justify Newt's role as protagonist.

Even separating the artist from the art and judging these movies on their own merits, only the first one is good, and the other ones are just awful.

I actually saw Secrets of Dumbledore on an airplane ride to Singapore, and I legit almost fell asleep because of how boring it was. The wizarding election was just so half-assed for one and not really engaging because it really doesn't explore the candidates or the voter mentality in any meaningful way.

It all hinges on the Qilin bowing before a candidate to convince people to vote for anyone here, and that's a very stupid way of driving an election plotline.

I better play it for you again during your next plane ride.

I just call this a case of separating art from the artist. YMMV on how well you can do this but that’s how I treat this series at this point. It’s such a part of my childhood and I find myself enjoying this series enough where I can overlook JK Rowling being a bad person.

If Cosmonaut Variety Hour, someone very critical of Rowling, can do it than so can I. Daniel Radcliffe says Rowling is dumb and I agree with him as he went on to say that you can enjoy these stories without justifying bigotry.

So far my search for another HP thread hasn’t turned up. Besides HP Fan Fiction. Which I am not getting into (nothing to any creators those stories just aren’t for me.)

Edited by Patar136 on Nov 26th 2023 at 2:58:22 AM

Well I’m going to Dubai for some business, staying there for 2 weeks then it’s back to New York.

So hey, maybe Secrets of Dumbledore will make great sleeping aids.

@Patar136 There's one for books, but that's really it.

I do agree people have been inventing reasons to retroactively say the books were never good. I think a few of the criticisms absolutely do hold up, such as...

• Rita Skeeter being a trans stereotype, as she's explicitly compared to a man in drag in the books.
• The goblins being anti-semitic stereotypes, thanks to their mentioned "rebellion" that happened on a bizarrely specific date that corresponds to a real-world massacre of Jews.
• The humor occasionally crossing the line to outright cruel, such as Hermione disfiguring a classmate and Fred and George dealing Magic GHB being Played for Laughs.

But I've also seen others that I feel like were clearly made up on the fly as people rushed to say it was never good. Like, HP at the height of its popularity was praised for having an extremely tight narrative and strong continuity. Once Rowling revealed her true colors, though, people were all "Wait, never mind, it's full of plot holes."

The Fantastic Beasts series is just very morbidly fascinating to me as an example of genuinely incompetent writing since JK isn't a screen writer and it really shows.

Particularly in Crimes of Grindelwald. Does anyone still remember that bizarre scene where there are constant reveals about Credence's parentage?

A character who was pretty boring and it seems like he only got pushed into the spotlight because of his actor being Ezra Miller who was popular before they started doing crimes.

I do agree that Harry Potter isn't "always awful" but it's flaws and problematic approach towards issues is certainly something you notice better when you get older.

It's certainly a series that hasn't aged well even if you discount JK being a bigot.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Nov 26th 2023 at 7:06:48 PM

It is like Chris Benoit. I hate what he did, but I still love watching matches like the WM 20 main event or his feud with Kurt Angle.

Edited by Mizerous on Nov 26th 2023 at 6:05:56 AM

I'm torn because I don't want to give Rowling any credit. But I feel like the Goblins=Jews thing is something I wouldn't give her any credit on.

But...literally isn't half of the protagonists for her Fantastic Beasts series Jewish?

Or Jewish coded at least?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 26th 2023 at 3:23:18 AM