TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

Go To

The criteria for Unintentionally Unsympathetic says:

"When a character's supposed insecurities or embarrassing quirks are supposed to inspire sympathy, but fail to impress the audience because they're mishandled or plain written badly. It can be made even worse if they have to learn a lesson. Without being at least somewhat invested in the characters, the audience might have passed the point of caring when the character finally comes around."

This is the basic criteria of the trope. There is more after but I am not sure what was present from the start and what was edited in afterwords to expand the definition. This trope is becoming more popular, with the page starting to be split-off into sub pages and such. And like all popular YMMV tropes this is causing an influx of bad examples that are probably just one-sided complaining, shoehorning, and bashing which is not in the spirit of this wiki. You can see this is causing issues just by looking at the pages discussion thread. I felt that the trope needed a dedicated cleanup thread. This way edits can be done without causing edit wars and getting people banned.

Some guidelines if a character or event is Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

1. It has to be unintentional on the authors part. It is in the title. All examples that were intentional on the author's part are disqualified by definition.

2. The example should state exactly why the author or narrative intended the subject to have been sympathetic and why it failed to resonate with the audience. If the example can not clearly state these two points, it is a bad example and needs to at minimum be rewritten.

3. Neutral tone: No insults. I know it is fun to complain about stuff but complaining is not in the spirit of the wiki. So long as one side isn't promoting hate speech examples should be written without taking a side. Examples that are heavily favoring one side or insulting the other side are probably not valid examples.

4. There should be a wide accepted disagreement between the audience and the author to be a valid example. By that I mean that there should be large consensus in the audience disagreeing with the author over why the character is unsympathetic instead of sympathetic. If the audience is too divided and one section thinks agrees with the author and the other doesn't, the example could be a pet peeve of a single person, which isn’t noteworthy.

Lastly, always consider Square Peg, Round Trope and be mindful if the example may fit better under a different trope such as Base-Breaking Character, Broken Base, and The Scrappy. Please visit other cleanup threads if you have questions about tropes that do not involve Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

Feel free to help if you spot some bad examples or can point out more rules for the trope. Or argue with me over the definitions, this is a cleanup thread after all.

MOD NOTICE: As of October 26, 2022, this thread now covers Unintentionally Sympathetic as well.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 26th 2022 at 8:15:48 AM

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#2101: Nov 27th 2023 at 8:52:55 PM

If Burr is meant to be sympathetic then it doesn't count, but if people are meant to disagree with him but they don't, that can go to Informed Wrongness or maybe Strawman Has a Point (as Burr seems to represent a particular kind of politics).

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
AdelePotter susie. from the worst timeline Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
susie.
#2102: Nov 27th 2023 at 10:00:26 PM

I'd say Burr is definitely supposed to come off as sympathetic; the show wouldn't make a point of emphasizing his devotion to his daughter, or showcasing his more relatable insecurities and hopes in "Wait For It," if we weren't meant to feel bad for the guy and like him a little.

EDIT: Maybe OP of the second bullet meant that Burr's reasons for challenging Hamilton to a duel were more sympathetic/seemingly justified than was intended? If so, that's a different can of worms.

Edited by AdelePotter on Nov 27th 2023 at 1:03:07 PM

I've been here too long. Regretting choosing this screenname half my life ago.
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2103: Dec 15th 2023 at 7:12:18 PM

This entry from the page for No Time to Die feels more like character bashing than an actual entry, given it admits M is supposed to be wrong:

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic:
    • M. The movie clearly wants to show that he's lost his way and needs to be put to rights by a What the Hell, Hero? moment from his old friend Bond, but decides to have him 'lose his way' by making a gene-targeting nanovirus as the ultimate assassination tool behind the backs of the entire rest of the British government, failing to cotton on to how insanely open to abuse such a weapon would be, and failing to adequately vet the scientists working on it or secure the lab where it was being made. After such catastrophic incompetence (and its catastrophic consequences) it's a bit much to see him end the film by delivering a eulogy to Bond before going back to work as head of MI6 rather than, say, applying for Jobseeker's Allowance on the phone after being drummed out of the service and/or being hauled into the back of a police van.
    • What makes it worse is that the previous two films had Mallory take firm stances against the previous M's risky leadership choices and the overreaching global surveillance that C was proposing...only for him to turn around, forget all that, and create a genocide plague behind the government's back.

LarryT Since: Aug, 2023
#2104: Dec 16th 2023 at 8:03:54 AM

[up] That sounds like it can probably be cut, it sounds like he’s not supposed to be sympathetic. But I haven’t seen it, so someone who’s seen the movie could be able to convince me otherwise. If he is UU we’ll need to rewrite it, but I’m leaning towards cut.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#2105: Dec 16th 2023 at 12:26:09 PM

I found this on YMMV.Its A Wonderful Knife 2023

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Robbie and Darla. They try to make it sound like it's Winnie's fault for the infidelity by point out they had been cheating for a year and if she had really cared about the relationship, she would have noticed. The problem is, the cheating had been going on for a year- in other words, ever since her best friend was murdered and when she killed a person. And the night Winnie discovered the cheating, Robbie had sent her a wall of text asking her to come to the party and wondering where she was, giving a distinct feeling that he was leading her on. The story tries to soften this by showing in the alternate world that Robbie and Darla had been dating for three years and were intensely in love with each other, making the Winnie and Robbie relationship in the prime world as something that was never meant to be, Robbie was fated to be with Darla.

This doesn't really explain how they are meant to be sympathetic. That said I have never seen this movie.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#2106: Dec 16th 2023 at 6:16:14 PM

[up]Relating, under UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Pokemon

  • In the Teal Mask DLC, Carmine's abrasiveness towards her brother bordering on full-blown verbal abuse made it hard for many players to like despite- or perhaps because of- her sense of justice in righting how Ogerpon was villified by the "Loyal" Three contrasting things and how she is only briefly called out on her bullying by her grandfather once... which infamously leads to her stating that she was being nice since she didn't hit him. It led to a number of players blaming her for Kieran's Sanity Slippage going into Indigo Disk as a result of that plus her forcing tge player to lie to him about Ogerpon.

I'll cut as failing to explain why she was supposed to be sympathetic.

MsCC22 Since: Aug, 2022
#2107: Dec 17th 2023 at 3:02:10 AM

[up]Pokemon fans just love to complain about the characters. However, you should post the link to this thread because there was an edit war in the past regarding this trope and Pokemon.

RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#2108: Dec 17th 2023 at 3:18:29 AM

[up][up] and[up](x3) It doesn't seem like the characters are intended to be sympathetic, so I feel both entries can go.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#2109: Dec 17th 2023 at 10:32:59 AM

[up]I PM'd them about Carmine's entry and they added why she's supposed to be sympathetic.

  • In the Teal Mask DLC, Carmine is presented as a Jerk with a Heart of Gold with a soft spot for Ogerpon after the truth about her is revealed, and her growing past her dislike of tourists and growing kinder to others (while still having her rough edges) is well-liked by many players. However, others take issue with her abrasiveness towards her brother Kieran bordering on full-blown verbal abuse with her afromentioned protectiveness for Ogerpon contrasting her treatment of Kieran. It isn't helped by her only briefly getting called out for her bullying once by her grandfather... which infamously leads to her stating that she was being nice since she didn't hit him that many players struggle to let her live down. It led to a number of players blaming her entirely for Kieran's Sanity Slippage going into Indigo Disk as a result of that plus her forcing the player to lie to him about the truth of Ogerpon.

Is this valid now or do we still want to remove? Might Jerks Are Worse Than Villains be a better fit or not as Kieran was an antagonist but not evil enough to be a villain?

BocchiTheRock Since: Feb, 2023
#2110: Dec 17th 2023 at 6:15:51 PM

I have a few entries with questions:

Young Sheldon S 3 E 08 The Sin Of Greed And A Chimichanga From Chi Chis:

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: The episode is meant to set things up so the viewer is sympathetic with Mary, since she is growing frustrated by her family's growing greed, how they feel they can get more money by being manipulative and dishonest and that they can do whatever they want once they have money. However, the climax where she steals everyone's stuff makes her come off as selfish due to her forcing her beliefs on the rest of the family. Even at the end when she returns everything she forces Missy to watch a show about praying to God called The Moosewood Gang instead of DuckTales, and replaces Georgie's Black Sabbath playlist to Jesus Christ Superstar, which both of them are clearly upset with.
    I don't think the viewer is meant to agree with Mary forcing her beliefs and stealing their things, it's clearly played as wrong. Also her forcing her family to use religious media instead at the end is clearly meant to be funny.

Tales From The Darkside S 4 E 16 The Family Reunion

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: The episode tries to establish that in a twisted way, the mother and the son share a 'special bond'. But it doesn't change the fact that she's lying to a social worker about her husband being a brute in order to get custody of her son, manipulating the social worker's belief that a mother couldn't possibly be a monstrous parent. Sound familiar?
    The main trope page notes that this episode has Grey-and-Gray Morality, no one in this episode is potrayed as entirely sympathetic/good.

The Patrick Star Show S 1 E 4 The Yard Sale

  • Unintentionally Sympathetic: The rest of the Star family show little sympathy towards GrandPat. They hold a Garage Sale primarily to sell GrandPat's stuff without telling him, while he's sleeping. While Cecil says that everyone contributed their own stuff to sell, we don't actually see any of this. It's clear that the family aren't handling GrandPat's stuff with respect: Patrick almost gives away a treasure chest full of jewels and gold coins for two dollars. His items also represent important accomplishments of his and aren't just useless junk; it's completely understandable why he would be mad at them for selling his stuff without permission.
    The family's actions are supposed to be played for laughs. Them not caring about his stuff is the main joke of the episode. Grand Pat himself also gets sold and he gladly leaves the family, and he confiscates all his sold items and gets them back.

Family Guy S 11 E 14 Call Girl

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Lois calls Peter out for "cheating on her", after she reveals herself as the woman on the phone. Not only does Peter rightfully point out that it wasn't really cheating, since it was with Lois, but Lois has cheated on Peter multiple times in the past for less justified reasons. There could also be earlier for, when Peter tries to say they have a good family, Lois says they don't and calls Chris and Stewie "Dummy" and "Big Head" respectively (she also points out Meg and doesn't even give her a crude nickname).
    This may be intentional since Peter clearly points out Lois's flaws. Also Family Guy has Negative Continuity so what happens in past episodes doesn't really matter.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2111: Dec 20th 2023 at 8:11:36 AM

[up] I'd say cut all of them unless that Family Guy episode specifically brings up the prior instances of cheating.

Also are these entries okay to add to the anime section on Pokémon?

  • Lillie the Shiny Nihilego is meant to be seen as a Tragic Monster who only lashed out of fear of losing Mohn after he treated her like his own daughter for years. Several fans however, see Shiny Lillie as an abusive gaslighter for doing everything in her power to keep Mohn from regaining his memories, such as not letting him venture far from their cabin or smashing any reflective surface, being so desperate to keep Mohn at arm’s length she won’t even let him see his own reflection. Despite this behavior we are supposed to see her being welcomed into the Aether family as a Happy Ending, when it comes off closer to rewarding her for not killing Mohn.
    • On the flip side (though not mutually exclusive), Gladion’s decision to catch Lillie in a Beast Ball as his own Pokémon is meant to be seen as Shiny Lillie’s place in the Aether family and their familial bond getting cemented. However, many viewers noted that catching Shiny Lillie means that Gladion has full control over which undermines the idea of him having a new sister. Gladion using a Beast Ball specifically further dehumanizes her as the Ultra Guardians created that Poké Ball specifically to catch Ultra Beasts to send them away to their home dimensions, with Gladion using the same type of Poké Ball furthering the imbalanced power dynamic amongst the family.

Also, do you think it's worth Spoiler marking given it's about a Late Journeys episode?

Edited by Mariofan99 on Dec 20th 2023 at 11:13:40 AM

molokai198 Since: Oct, 2012
#2112: Dec 20th 2023 at 8:20:18 AM

[up] This makes sense though I question the reference to Tragic Monster, that is a trope for a character turned into a monster against their will such that they have no free will or control of their actions but still have to be stopped, but you seem to describe it like the show never frames it like her mind was not her own and she was forced to be a monster, but that she was doing it of her own free will and is framed as sympathetic for her reasons for doing such.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2113: Dec 20th 2023 at 12:22:00 PM

[up] Yeah Tragic Villain fits better: as for how it’s spoiler marked. Is it too excessive? Or is it fine?

Edited by Mariofan99 on Dec 20th 2023 at 3:22:09 PM

Jobyrdthegamerbyrd Since: Aug, 2017
#2114: Dec 20th 2023 at 3:18:59 PM

For WesternAnimation.Trolls World Tour:

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Poppy. Even those who liked her in the first movie, didn't like her in this one. You're suppoused to root for her while also wanting her to realize that her mistake for not listening to what anyone tell her not to do. Unfortunely, that's not the case, since she spents the entire movie as a selfish ignorant, making bad choices, putting her friends in danger and only then, in the climax is when she does something right.

Not sure if this really counts considering she was called out on her actions three times in the movie. Plus I think her just learning to actually listen is something she’s gone through a few times (by the time Band Together came out it seems to stick). So overall… does this count?

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#2115: Dec 21st 2023 at 1:10:19 PM

From YMMV.Wish 2023:

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Several viewers have found Asha to be unsympathetic during her interview with Magnifico, where she asks him to grant her grandfather's wish, which her friends pointed out earlier is a benefit of the apprenticeship and veers close to nepotism. The film paints her as completely sympathetic in trying so hard to get it granted, but even Magnifico notes that people usually wait before asking something of him.

This seems like a stretch and maybe I am wrong, but it doesn't explain how she comes off as unsympathetic.

Edited by Bullman on Dec 21st 2023 at 3:16:03 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
jandn2014 SMILE! from somewhere in Connecticut Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Hiding
SMILE!
#2116: Dec 21st 2023 at 1:11:52 PM

Haven't seen the film, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a stretch. We ought to keep an eye on that page; seems as if the film may become a complaining magnet.

skan123 Since: Aug, 2018
#2117: Dec 21st 2023 at 1:13:44 PM

This actually isn't the first time a US/UU entry was a sucject of contention on this movie.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#2118: Dec 21st 2023 at 1:15:05 PM

To be fair, fans whitewashing Magnifico and demonizing Asha has become infamous. So there's a real reaction here that's just poorly explained. (There doesn't need to be much justification if people just take small moments and exaggerate them)

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
skan123 Since: Aug, 2018
#2119: Dec 21st 2023 at 1:21:40 PM

[up] Do you suggest a re-write?

Edited by skan123 on Dec 21st 2023 at 1:21:52 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#2120: Dec 21st 2023 at 1:21:50 PM

I haven't seen the film.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#2121: Dec 21st 2023 at 1:23:46 PM

My problem is the fact that from what I can tell from my research is the line from here friends is a throwaway line. So, it really does seem to be taking a small moment and overplaying it.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#2122: Dec 21st 2023 at 1:24:46 PM

I mean, I get it, but what we need to keep in mind is that we're reporting on fans who find her unsympathetic, not saying she is or that the mentality is logical.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#2123: Dec 21st 2023 at 1:27:26 PM

My problem is that is already covered in her Ron the Death Eater entry, and I feel like it fits better there.

Edited by Bullman on Dec 21st 2023 at 3:31:20 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#2124: Dec 21st 2023 at 1:28:40 PM

That's fair.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#2125: Dec 22nd 2023 at 6:32:51 PM

Someone re-added the King Magnifico entry on YMMV.Wish 2023:

  • Unintentionally Sympathetic: King Magnifico can come across as this. While not without flaws, he does have a point in the necessity of screening wishes, and he is keeping the kingdom happy, and his Complete Monster moments come after he is corrupted by evil magic. However, after his defeat no one makes any effort to free him from such corruption, not even his wife, and they are content to leave him trapped in a mirror shard, something that might be considered a Fate Worse than Death. The queen in particular, who was shown to love Magnifico early and is aware of the corruptive powers the magic he used has, comes off as exceedingly cold and all too quick to get rid of her former husband without any attempt to save him.

I again don't hink he counts and I invited the one who added it here.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

Total posts: 3,048
Top