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Unintentionally Unsympathetic Cleanup

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May 30th 2019 at 8:33:39 PM

The Rising of the Shield Hero

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: There is one point in the story where Naofumi crosses into this for many: when Malty is condemned to marry the King of Faubley, a serial rapist, torturer and killer, and Naofumi not only stops her from committing suicide on the spot to avoid this fate (which also would have finally gotten her out of his and everyone else's lives much sooner), but requests what happens to her be recorded for his pleasure. He backtracks really fast once he actually get to see the actual video. To the point where he practically walks out on it at the start and requests the guard with him to lie regarding how much of it he actually saw. Whether this makes things any better or even worse is also debated.
    • While what happened to him was uncalled for, there are points in the early story when Naofumi hardly acts any better than the King or Malty which makes some in the audience wish someone would smack some sense into him. Erhard himself comments that Naofumi "won't die a painless death" after seeing his initial treatment of Raphtalia.

I removed this since it doesn't explain why Naofumi is supposed to be sympathetic. Their stated regret and in-universe character condemning them for that argues it's intentional. Thoughts?

May 31st 2019 at 5:54:51 PM

From what's written, it does seem intentional. Like you said, however, we need to see why the troper thinks the character is supposed to be sympathetic and there's not much evidence of that. It seems... vague.

It feels so good to have no signature at last.
Jun 1st 2019 at 12:50:59 AM

Maybe we should add Astrid to the "Unintentional Unsympathetic"category. In the movie, her behavior towards Hiccup and his relationship with Toothless is supposed to be seen as a loving girlfriend being worried about her significant other, but really she comes across nore as unnecessary jealous most of the time, especially after one of the delete scenes revealed that she thought Hiccup was too focused on Toothless to think about marriage ( https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FQErOCAQzvk)

By the way if i wanted to add "unfortunate implications" to the YMMV page of HTTYD THW, where should i discuss about it? Is there another cleanup page dedicated to the discussion about it?

Edited by Raf97 on Jun 1st 2019 at 1:07:01 AM

Jun 1st 2019 at 3:06:55 PM

[up] Astrid sounds like an example as written. Just keep the deleted scene as a separate sentence as it may have been deleted to mitigate this (unless they say otherwise).

Unfortunate Implications doesn't need a cleanup, just a citation (link to a reputable 3rd party source arguing for said implications).

Jun 4th 2019 at 1:28:07 PM

How much time is needed from the premiere of a movie, to add a candidate?

Dr. Emma Russell is a potential example.

Jun 7th 2019 at 1:40:10 AM

[up]It can be added once it officially releases. What's the the work and why do they count?

chasemaddigan Playing the world's smallest violin.
Playing the world's smallest violin.
Jun 7th 2019 at 7:52:58 AM

[up][up] The character they're referring to is from Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019).

I haven't seen the film, so I can't weigh in on anything. But the movie's been out for about a week. I don't think there's an official policy regarding a waiting period though.

nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jun 7th 2019 at 1:22:46 PM

As someone who has seen the film, I'm not sure why JoLuRo075 thinks she's supposed to be sympathetic in the first place.

Jun 7th 2019 at 4:57:48 PM

[up]Emma Russell is presented as an anti-villain, whose death is treated as an example of redemption, even when everything that happened was her fault.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Jun 7th 2019 at 4:58:40 AM

nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jun 8th 2019 at 12:33:16 AM

TBH, that sounds to me like the sort of "yeah, but not ENOUGH" shoehorning Karma Houdini once (still?) attracted a lot.

Jun 13th 2019 at 2:40:52 PM

[up][up] None of that explains how its unintentional. They have to be unsympathetic for different reasons than the narrative presents.

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere
Planeswalker
Jun 21st 2019 at 1:44:59 PM

Hey guys, I'd like to suggest Alex from the game YIIKA Postmodern RPG for being unintentionally unsympathetic:

Alex is a pretentious, self-centered, and flat out grating hipster who constantly engages in poorly written Purple Prose and treats the whole world and his friends as though they revolve around him and his needs. Eventually, alternate versions of him destroy the world due to their negative personality traits consuming them, and in one ending he can choose to join them. While the character was not initially meant to be sympathetic, even while trying to atone for what his other selves did he comes off as just as self-absorbed and rambling, leading to people cheering when he dies rather than taking the moment as the tear-jerking Heroic Sacrifice it was meant to be. Players have also called out the game on having a Broken Aesop involving Alex; while Alex is called out as not being the center of the universe it turns out he actually is, as his original self is the Greater-Scope Villain of the story who allows other Alexes to destroy realities, and only with his help can the player's universe be saved.

Edited by PhiSat on Jun 21st 2019 at 2:46:04 AM

Oissu!
Klavice As if! from Pacific Canada Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
As if!
Jun 21st 2019 at 6:23:08 PM

Could Chief Clancy Wiggum and Apu get examples? Both have their issues, Wiggum being as dumb as bricks not to mention whenever he's out of a job, he's quick to give into mob mentality later. Apu is similar but actually smart. Not to mention the REASON Apu got fired in Homer vs Apu was because he sold tainted meat exactly twice to Homer. Granted the Kwik-E-Mart is run by a bunch of crooks but he's not exactly worth sympathizing over when he has family issues with Manjula and his octuplets.

There's also the restraining order episode with Lisa who at first it seems justified, but after the Judge Judy Captain Ersatz extended tge order, she kinda lost all sympathy due to treating Bart arguably worse than he did her.

Pending Writeups, Drafts Discussion Dates
Jun 26th 2019 at 3:13:00 PM

[up]How are they intended to be sympathetic despite those traits?

I removed the following from YMMV.My Little Pony Equestria Girls Sunsets Backstage Pass:

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Post Crush. They trap everyone in a "Groundhog Day" Loop so their reunion concert can go perfect, and when confronted by Sunset over what they're doing, they not only refuse to stop but imply they'll repeat the day forever until things go to their satisfaction, and then plan to have Sunset and Pinkie banned from the park every day to make sure they can't interfere. Their reasoning for wanting the concert to go perfect though is mostly for their own vanity, they want a perfect show no matter what it takes. They're also shown to look down on their fans, sneering "fans wouldn't understand" why they're doing what they are. When Sunset finally talks them down, it's by pointing out that expecting things to be perfect and not accepting anything less is irrational and almost impossible.
They're the villains. As is, it fails to explain why they're supposed to be sympathetic despite the above antagonism.

Klavice As if! from Pacific Canada Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
As if!
Jun 26th 2019 at 5:47:13 PM

Anything worth keeping on this page? I don't think you're intended to feel sorry for anyone in The Simpsons since it's a a Sadist Show where everyone is a Jerkass at some point. So should we axe the page entirely or look at it and see if anything's worth keeping? I think we should at least remove the Itchy and Scratchy example as Itchy was never meant to be "sympathized with".

Pending Writeups, Drafts Discussion Dates
Jun 27th 2019 at 2:22:59 AM

From YMMV.Fate Grand Order

Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Scheherazade, the Arc Villain of Agartha, was intentionally written as someone with great fear of death after what she went through and was desperate to find a way to avoid it. In other times, it would've been as a sympathetic and interesting Deconstructor Fleet of Scheherazade's story. However, in process of doing that, she created a Singularity that involves brainwashing several personal Servants of the protagonist which ended up initiating extremely misogynistic actions (involving slavery and rape... majorly on male), and in the end made light of Dr. Roman/Solomon's sacrifice, erasing himself from existence to save humanity, while she attempts to do the same for her own selfish desire to cheat death. Because of this, along with Tier-Induced Scrappy reasons, Scheherazade tends to draw ire by the fandom and was majorly seen as an unlikable Dirty Coward instead. Her interlude is an attempt to fix this, by having her narrate the Singularities the protagonist went through and realizing how much Dr. Roman's sacrifice meant, which allowed her to apologize for creating Agartha Singularity or belittling his memory in the first place and growing a backbone, as in readying herself to sacrifice her own life for the good cause, but there are those who still held enmity because she did those things in the first place and those couldn't be undone.

I have not finished the story, but overall in story her actions are treated as wrong. They do call her put on the whole dying part. In fact, Her mentioning of Roman does enlist anger from the heroes.

Gacha Is A Lie.
Jun 27th 2019 at 11:40:47 AM

[up]Cut. Sounds like a character that could have been sympathetic as opposed to being intended as sympathetic. The last half is fan gripes which isn't relevant.

I removed the following from YMMV.My Little Pony Equestria Girls Sunsets Backstage Pass:

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Pinkie Pie falls into this category. She spends almost every loop getting Sunset (and at one point the entire group) kicked out of the festival due to her antics and inability to control herself around churros, and at one point leaving to get some while she was supposed to be standing watch for the Dazzlings, Sunset's outburst while she's within earshot comes off as less unintentionally insensitive and more cathartic to some viewers.

Fails to explain why she was intended as sympathetic despite this, she's under Jerkass Realization which argues it's not unintentional.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jun 27th 2019 at 11:47:05 AM

Jul 22nd 2019 at 4:53:55 PM

I intend to add back the town in "Ponyville Confidential" since the writer explains here why they were supposed to be sympathetic but that detail wasn't properly conveyed. The writer admitting this seems a solid example.

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Word of God is that the residents of Ponyville treatment of CMC was meant to be "them trying to avoid talking to them because anything they say could end up in print out of context." But they admit that nuance was lost in the final product, leading it to be viewed as undeservedly cruel.

Update: adding per Three-Day Rule.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jul 25th 2019 at 9:39:37 AM

Silverblade2 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Jul 26th 2019 at 5:45:03 AM

  • Clark Kent's morose attitude becomes more difficult to swallow following the release of SHAZAM! (2019). Although both Billy Batson and Clark Kent are rather emotionally distant and dour, Clark at least has a loving family and affections of a nice girl whereas Billy is a foster teen who jumped around between different homes and was abandoned as a toddler by his deadbeat mom. Furthermore, unlike Clark, Billy actually matures into an all-loving idealistic hero in his own origin movie. Subsequently, many fans are less accepting of Clark's mopey, dreary outlook given how he didn't have the Freudian Excuse or personal growth of other less fortunate heroes.

I feel like this comes of as an apple to orange comparaison. I'm not a fan of Man of Steel but I don't think someone being morose or mopey and not having the same personality as someone else in another movie makes them unsympathetic unless I missed something.

MasterJoseph Shipping FrolaytiaXQwenthur of Heavy Object. Relationship Status: Seeking boyfriend-free girl
Shipping FrolaytiaXQwenthur of Heavy Object.
Jul 28th 2019 at 9:03:43 AM

Found this on Super Mario Maker 2: Toadette (AKA The Chief) who is in charge of rebuilding Peach's castle in story mode is this according to Game Theory video "Game Theory: Peach's Castle of LIES! (Super Mario Maker 2)". While she's supposed to be running the construction of the castle and apparently complains about how her workers are either slacking off or not doing their job properly, the fault is actually in Toadette herself. She is an incompetent foreman, using cheap materials to rebuild the castle and barely paying the Toads' wages. She also deflects blame on the union of all people for the problems they encounter despite having nothing to do with this, and when the Toads all get kidnapped, she instead thinks they're skipping work and threatens the cut their pay. Mat Pat states that the Toads are basic slaves, barely being paid a cent while Peach and most likely Toadette are living the rich life.

I think some portions of it were nothing but pure conjecture.

Woobie Slayer
Silverblade2 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Jul 28th 2019 at 12:00:08 PM

Agree. It's also based on the opinion of a single reviewer.

Aug 1st 2019 at 5:36:15 AM

From Avengers: Infinity War: "Thanos is meant to be a Well-Intentioned Extremist and perhaps Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds who went crazy after what happened to his planet. That said, even ignoring his murdering half the entire universe, we know he forced his own daughters to fight, and torutred one of them every time she lost. As such is pretty hard to see him as anything but sadistic tyrant."

Is it really a good example? Thanos is the villain, he's not supposed to be sympathetic. In fact, the film starts with Thanos laying waste to the ship with the Asgardian survivors and killing Heimdall and fan-favorite Loki. And yet, many people digged his concern over universal overpopulation (as plain overpopulation is very much a real-life problem), causing a noticeable part of the audience Rooting for the Empire. This entry sounds like "hey, remember that he's the villain, you should not find him sympathetic!"

Ultimate Secret Wars
Silverblade2 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Aug 1st 2019 at 7:59:08 AM

Yeah, I dont think it's a good example.

miraculous I am so tired of this gothic crap from South Africa
I am so tired of this gothic crap
Aug 1st 2019 at 8:06:52 AM

Its quite a bad example. Remove it.

Just once, I want to meet the villain in a cheerful, brightly lit room. Possibly one with kittens
chasemaddigan Playing the world's smallest violin.
Playing the world's smallest violin.
Aug 1st 2019 at 8:24:09 AM

Yeah, Thanos was meant to have understandable motives, but he wasn't meant to be a wholly sympathetic character. The Russos intended to be someone who just couldn't accept any solution other than his own, and that's why in Endgame he shifts over to wiping out all life and starting over again.


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