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Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

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The criteria for Unintentionally Unsympathetic says:

"When a character's supposed insecurities or embarrassing quirks are supposed to inspire sympathy, but fail to impress the audience because they're mishandled or plain written badly. It can be made even worse if they have to learn a lesson. Without being at least somewhat invested in the characters, the audience might have passed the point of caring when the character finally comes around."

This is the basic criteria of the trope. There is more after but I am not sure what was present from the start and what was edited in afterwords to expand the definition. This trope is becoming more popular, with the page starting to be split-off into sub pages and such. And like all popular YMMV tropes this is causing an influx of bad examples that are probably just one-sided complaining, shoehorning, and bashing which is not in the spirit of this wiki. You can see this is causing issues just by looking at the pages discussion thread. I felt that the trope needed a dedicated cleanup thread. This way edits can be done without causing edit wars and getting people banned.

Some guidelines if a character or event is Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

1. It has to be unintentional on the authors part. It is in the title. All examples that were intentional on the author's part are disqualified by definition.

2. The example should state exactly why the author or narrative intended the subject to have been sympathetic and why it failed to resonate with the audience. If the example can not clearly state these two points, it is a bad example and needs to at minimum be rewritten.

3. Neutral tone: No insults. I know it is fun to complain about stuff but complaining is not in the spirit of the wiki. So long as one side isn't promoting hate speech examples should be written without taking a side. Examples that are heavily favoring one side or insulting the other side are probably not valid examples.

4. There should be a wide accepted disagreement between the audience and the author to be a valid example. By that I mean that there should be large consensus in the audience disagreeing with the author over why the character is unsympathetic instead of sympathetic. If the audience is too divided and one section thinks agrees with the author and the other doesn't, the example could be a pet peeve of a single person, which isn’t noteworthy.

Lastly, always consider Square Peg, Round Trope and be mindful if the example may fit better under a different trope such as Base-Breaking Character, Broken Base, and The Scrappy. Please visit other cleanup threads if you have questions about tropes that do not involve Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

Feel free to help if you spot some bad examples or can point out more rules for the trope. Or argue with me over the definitions, this is a cleanup thread after all.

MOD NOTICE: As of October 26, 2022, this thread now covers Unintentionally Sympathetic as well.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 26th 2022 at 8:15:48 AM

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#1926: Sep 2nd 2023 at 6:21:15 PM

Yeah, Lulu and Wakka are both much more well liked by most of the fanbase than a typical base breaking character.

Tidus himself is probably closer than either of them.

keyblade333 Ferdinand Von Aegir fan from In the void between worlds. Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Ferdinand Von Aegir fan
#1927: Sep 4th 2023 at 1:14:38 PM

I'll remove Lulu and Wakka for sure.

Unsure about the other entries though.

Muramasa got.
KOman 'Sup? Since: Jul, 2013
'Sup?
#1928: Sep 6th 2023 at 12:53:42 PM

My Hero Academia

Does Himiko Toga count as an example? The story is definitely painting her as a victim of Quirk Society trying to stamp out Quirk-influenced behavior deemed “abnormal”. She was treated like a monster by her own parents for what she feels is merely how she expresses her love, suffered the loss of Twice, and wants to create a world where she can express herself freely. A major part of Uraraka’s character toward the end is trying to empathize with her. She’s definitely painted in a more sympathetic light than, say, AFO or Muscular.

However, she also receives a lot of flak because her Quirk-influenced behavior, which compels her to consume blood, is harmful to others, and even by her standards of comparing it to kissing, she doesn’t seem too big on consent. Others have called out the Moral Myopia of mourning Twice and questioning where heroes draw the line at lives worth saving despite being a serial killer herself.

¿?¡!
badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#1929: Sep 6th 2023 at 12:58:11 PM

Edited by badtothebaritone on Sep 6th 2023 at 3:00:13 AM

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#1930: Sep 6th 2023 at 1:00:01 PM

[up][up] No. While Uraraka does sympathize with her over the horrific aspects of her upbringing, she does not support her killing people.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Sep 6th 2023 at 3:01:06 AM

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#1931: Sep 6th 2023 at 1:21:53 PM

I don't think she counts either.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#1932: Sep 8th 2023 at 1:50:41 PM

Would anyone have a problem if I removed these entries from Unintentionally UnSympathetic Simpsons (Grimes), UnintentionallySympathetic WesternAnimation (Homer), and the YMMV page for Homer's enemy (both entries)?

Note the latter on the YMMV page was deleted in past, only to be re-added recently.

I'll explain my reasoning for why I think they should go bit by bit.

  • Frank Grimes from "Homer's Enemy" was supposed to be what happens when a normal person exists in the Simpsons universe, but as his episode played out, 'Frank was far from normal. Not only did Frank go out in a jealous rage in front of Homer and his family even though he tries to reconcile with him, he was also portrayed as a pompous, selfish, self-pitying, and uptight jerk that expected everything to fall into his lap, and was a pathetic dreg of a person who refused to stand up for himself and instead played by the rules, when all throughout his life, said rules screwed him over.

John Swartzwelder, the episode's writer, directly stated that the audience is supposed to turn against Frank Grimes and side with Homer around the half-way point where Homer drops his jerkass behavior and Frank goes out of his way to try and humiliate Homer.

Bill Oakley and Matt Groening have stated similar.

So this is an Intended Audience Reaction.

Frank Grimes having an unrealistically miserable life would make him being "realistic", a Broken Aesop, but it has nothing to do with whether or not he is sympathetic.

Whilst Homer's flanderization is true, the writer admitted to it being intentional and its unrelated to Grimes being unsympathetic.

Also Homer is very obnoxious in the first half of the episode, most notably Grimes saves Homer's life when the latter was going to drink a cup of sulphuric acid, Frank slapped it out of Homer's hands resulting in it melting a wall instead.

Homer immediately "repays" Grimes by telling their boss that Frank Grimes melted the wall of the power plant with the sulphuric acid without saying anything about Grimes saving him.

Again, the writer's intent is that the audience sides with Homer once he becomes remorseful and tries to make amends with Grimes.

  • And then "The Great Louse Detective" revealed a possible explanation why he's always struggling to make ends meet: Frank routinely engages with sex workers and got at least one of them pregnant. His near-Perpetual Poverty is likely from either paying child support, continuing to pay for sex or both. Kind of hard to pity a man whose screw-ups were self-inflicted. What's more, contrast Frank with Homer, who did the honorable thing when he found out he'd impregnated Marge and does a job he hates to provide for his third child (and the second unplanned one).

Then there's this.

Ok first off, Frank Grimes having a son with a prostitute was a Retcon, the show itself lampshaded the sheer absurdity of how Grimes could possibly have a son when Frank Grimes Jr quickly retorted "he happened to know a hooker, ok."

Second off, even with this retcon, Frank Grimes would be seventeen years old at most when he sired his son, that he's still supporting his son from a Teen Pregnancy doesn't reflect poorly on his character.

Also there's no mention of him routinely hiring sex workers, so thats another assumption. One mistake as a youth doesn't mean someone deserves miserable poverty for the rest of their life.

Finally there's zero mention or indication that Grimes abandoned Frank Jr's mother. We're shown Grimes barely has enough money to feed himself and that his son knew and loved his father, which doesn't really point to Grimes being the deadbeat father this entry paints him as.

With all this in mind, is anyone opposed to deleting all these entries on UnintentionallyUnsympathetic/TheSimspons, UnintentionallySympathetic/WesternAnimation, and YMMV/S8E23HomersEnemy?

Edited by Monsund on Sep 8th 2023 at 1:51:20 AM

Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#1933: Sep 9th 2023 at 2:18:05 AM

Honestly, I would have a problem if you removed it. The entire episode is basically Swartzwelder going on his weird libertarian screeds and trying to make Frank his mouthpiece as to why Homer is, and I quote: "Everything wrong with this country". While Homer is portrayed as, well, Homer, Frank is shown to be hard-working to the point of physically destroying his body (which the episode goes out of its way to paint as a virtue on his part on multiple occasions), and Homer is personally blamed by the narrative as the cause of all his problems, be it directly or indirectly.

Maybe Swartzwelder claimed the contrary, but the actual content of the episode vehemently disagrees.

I'm here, I guess.
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#1934: Sep 9th 2023 at 11:15:16 AM

If the creator says that it was intentional then I think we should remove it.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#1935: Sep 9th 2023 at 1:35:35 PM

RE: Hawkatana

Swartzwelder says here that Grimes was asking for punishment by picking on Homer and that he wrote Homer like a dumb Big Friendly Dog.

Similarly this mentions an interview where Swartzwelder again says Grime's pettiness wasn't meant to be sympathized with.

How does the episode side with Grimes, his intent to humiliate Homer with a children's contest is painted as petty in the episode? I can find professional reviews and they all say, the Audience's sympathies are meant to ultimately go to Homer when Grimes goes too far.

And on a similar note, does Frank's Deus Angst Machina backstory really take away from sympathy. And do we need that big bit from a great Louse detective, when there's nothing in that episode showing him as a deadbeat dad and the episode admits him having a son is a Retcon?

RE: Bullman

Yes, here's just one where they admit the audience is meant to side with Homer Simpson over Frank Grimes.

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#1936: Sep 9th 2023 at 2:07:58 PM

At very least cut the "The Great Louse Detective" examples for speculative troping.

Edited by randomtroper89 on Sep 9th 2023 at 4:08:19 AM

TheGrayFox ....Phenomenal from A Lovecraftian fishing village Since: Sep, 2011
....Phenomenal
#1937: Sep 10th 2023 at 12:51:44 AM

Saw that this was recently added to Darkest Dungeon II:

The Grave Robber being the victim of Domestic Abuse and robbing her husband's grave because he had destroyed their finances will definitely elicit sympathy for her, but it becomes tainted when she (potentially) murders a Night Watchman just for getting in her way. The end of her Hero Shrine also pretty much states she continued grave robbing purely because she enjoyed the thrill she got from it, meaning she's likely desecrated the graves of people far more innocent than her abusive husband.

While all of this is basically true, I think it's wrong to assume that it's unintentional. The game's heroes are portrayed as complicated and flawed people by design, fitting with the Central Theme of accepting your personal failings. Grave Robber is an Anti-Hero who's depicted in her artwork symbolically shying away from the light in the same way as the other flawed heroes (for contrast, the only character who faces said light proudly is the 100% unambiguously heroic Leper).

Edited by TheGrayFox on Sep 10th 2023 at 1:36:50 AM

There remains a foothold out of this mire — now climb.
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1938: Sep 11th 2023 at 7:06:04 AM

[up] In that case delete it

I’m also wondering about this entry on Attack of the Clones that seems to argue against itself. Should the lower note be deleted or the entire entry?

Unintentionally Sympathetic: Anakin's massacre of the Tusken Raiders is portrayed as his Start of Darkness, but considering they all seem to be bloodthirsty assholes who attack humans for no reason, and considering that ultimately they just kidnapped and tortured his mother to death, quite a few viewers think he was completely justified.

  • Though as time goes by, as the Tusken Raiders get far more sympathetic characterizations in future stories and their hatred for settlers is given some explanation, his actions here become far more hideous in retrospect.

WhirlRX Since: Jan, 2015
#1939: Sep 11th 2023 at 7:15:39 AM

[up]Maybe in retrospect. But their characterization at the time might not have been the best. Especially on face value on what was canon at the time.

molokai198 Since: Oct, 2012
#1940: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:42:36 AM

[up][up] I haven't watched the Star Wars prequels but the criticism I always hear of that part is the opposite, that the narrative doesn't put enough weight on the action, showing it as just a minor hint that he might turn to evil but still considering him a good guy after that, when it should have been a full-on Moral Event Horizon, and that that's due to dehumanizing his victims with racist tropes.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1941: Sep 12th 2023 at 6:00:42 AM

[up] Yeah personally I feel the way you're meant to take it is that while Anakin taking vengeance on the ones who killed his mother is bad but understandable, slaughtering the entire village is meant to be horrific. Best I could think of being "unintentional" is it seems very off Padmé would still want to be with Anakin after hearing this, but that complaint is already covered on her entry on the film page.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#1942: Sep 12th 2023 at 8:39:30 AM

Yeah cut the second bullet at least. I'm not sure about the first one either.

Edited by Bullman on Sep 12th 2023 at 10:40:23 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#1943: Sep 12th 2023 at 11:02:41 AM

[up] Rooting for the Empire seems like the better fit for that as it was meant to be a morally complicated moment.

Also note that Anakin admitted to also killing the woman and children who presumably had nothing to do with this, it wasn't a mere hint but the moment he begun his fall to the Dark Side, Anakin did have some regret despite his rage, and the Tusken Raiders getting more sympathetic characterization was likely an after the fact fix to this so it's evidence for their being an issue.

Maybe Unintentionally Unsympathetic for the Tuskens and/or Character Perception Evolution is a better fit.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Sep 12th 2023 at 2:44:06 AM

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#1944: Sep 12th 2023 at 5:46:16 PM

Anyone else wanna give opinions on the Homer's enemy discussion, given the writers of the episode have said several times that Grimes isn't meant to be rooted for and Homer is intended to be sympathetic in the latter half of the episode?

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#1945: Sep 12th 2023 at 6:05:05 PM

For what it's worth, I found this interview with producer George Meyer about how Grimes was meant to be seen in a more morally grey light; someone who was right, but had to be taken down because of it:

Grimes’s cardinal sin was that he shined a light on Springfield. He pointed out everything that was wrongheaded and idiotic about that world. And the people who do that tend to become martyrs. He said things that needed to be said, but once they were said, we needed to destroy that person. I’ll admit, we took a certain sadistic glee in his downfall. He was such a righteous person, and that somehow made his demise more satisfying.

Jobyrdthegamerbyrd Since: Aug, 2017
#1946: Sep 12th 2023 at 6:50:04 PM

Someone added this to YMMV.The Super Mario Bros Movie. Link: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.TheSuperMarioBrosMovie#edit38124795. Also included the entry itself just in case:

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Peach and, to a lesser extent, Toad, at the wedding, while she had every reason not to want to marry Bowser, her plan came off as incredibly high-risk, trying to go One-Man Army on Bowser and his villainous cohorts, knowing they had the means to destroy the Mushroom Kingdom and had just shown her prior. While she's entirely in the right to do so at the wedding, as Bowser was about to sacrifice innocents in her honor, Toad and Peach had made it clear this was their plan before they knew of the sacrifices. The duo comes off as hastily risking the safety of their kingdom because Peach didn't want to be married to Bowser for one minute rather than waiting until they had access to the star in a more surefire plan.

Edited by Jobyrdthegamerbyrd on Sep 12th 2023 at 6:50:23 AM

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#1947: Sep 12th 2023 at 6:53:04 PM

That's not even "I think this character is unsympathetic" it's just "this plan is super high risk."

Clear cut.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Smoker130 Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1949: Sep 12th 2023 at 7:20:58 PM

I don't want to further complicate the debate, but if the intended audience reaction was to make Grimes unsympathetic and Homer sympathetic, I kinda feel like we still have a issue of Unintentionally Sympathetic, just the other way around. As demonstrated by the fact that many people believed that Grimes was meant to be the sympathetic one.

Homer's and the rest of the cast stupidity being cranked up to such a absurd extent (and remaining so even after the mid-episode point, remember he slept at the guy's funeral, and everyone just laugh it off, even character who would normally calls him out on this), and Frank raising several valid points, even if he is temperamental and petty about it, kinda makes them seems like the unsympathetic ones.

And the ridiculously awful backstory makes it more understandable (not right, just understandable) that he would be pissed and envious that someone like Homer-as-portrayed-in-this-episode apparently have a great life despite his incompetence and stupidity.

The great Louse detective bullet point definitely needs to go.

Edited by Smoker130 on Sep 12th 2023 at 4:22:19 PM

BloodRedKnight Since: Nov, 2019
#1950: Sep 13th 2023 at 6:56:45 AM

I added that and the high risk plan could've resulted in the destruction of the mushroom kingdom so it came off as a result of putting her pride before the kingdom which is not an attitude befitting of a leader

Had they known about the sacrifices before the wedding started, yes that would've been fine because then it seems like that's her reason for putting her kingdom at risk. Since they didn't it came off as them risking their kingdom instead.


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