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Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

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The criteria for Unintentionally Unsympathetic says:

"When a character's supposed insecurities or embarrassing quirks are supposed to inspire sympathy, but fail to impress the audience because they're mishandled or plain written badly. It can be made even worse if they have to learn a lesson. Without being at least somewhat invested in the characters, the audience might have passed the point of caring when the character finally comes around."

This is the basic criteria of the trope. There is more after but I am not sure what was present from the start and what was edited in afterwords to expand the definition. This trope is becoming more popular, with the page starting to be split-off into sub pages and such. And like all popular YMMV tropes this is causing an influx of bad examples that are probably just one-sided complaining, shoehorning, and bashing which is not in the spirit of this wiki. You can see this is causing issues just by looking at the pages discussion thread. I felt that the trope needed a dedicated cleanup thread. This way edits can be done without causing edit wars and getting people banned.

Some guidelines if a character or event is Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

1. It has to be unintentional on the authors part. It is in the title. All examples that were intentional on the author's part are disqualified by definition.

2. The example should state exactly why the author or narrative intended the subject to have been sympathetic and why it failed to resonate with the audience. If the example can not clearly state these two points, it is a bad example and needs to at minimum be rewritten.

3. Neutral tone: No insults. I know it is fun to complain about stuff but complaining is not in the spirit of the wiki. So long as one side isn't promoting hate speech examples should be written without taking a side. Examples that are heavily favoring one side or insulting the other side are probably not valid examples.

4. There should be a wide accepted disagreement between the audience and the author to be a valid example. By that I mean that there should be large consensus in the audience disagreeing with the author over why the character is unsympathetic instead of sympathetic. If the audience is too divided and one section thinks agrees with the author and the other doesn't, the example could be a pet peeve of a single person, which isn’t noteworthy.

Lastly, always consider Square Peg, Round Trope and be mindful if the example may fit better under a different trope such as Base-Breaking Character, Broken Base, and The Scrappy. Please visit other cleanup threads if you have questions about tropes that do not involve Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

Feel free to help if you spot some bad examples or can point out more rules for the trope. Or argue with me over the definitions, this is a cleanup thread after all.

MOD NOTICE: As of October 26, 2022, this thread now covers Unintentionally Sympathetic as well.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 26th 2022 at 8:15:48 AM

ElBuenCuate Since: Oct, 2010
#1751: Apr 10th 2023 at 11:38:51 PM

So I want to bring this example from The Simpsons S2 E4 "Two Cars in Every Garage and Three Eyes on Every Fish"

Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Marge is treated as being put upon because Homer has sold out to Burns and is forcing the family (or at least Bart) to support his campaign. Though as he himself states, he is only doing it so Burns won't fire him and he can keep a roof over their heads. She publicly sabotages Burns anyway (by inexplicably killing and serving Blinky), and when Burns throws a tantrum, she cowers and tells Homer to make him stop. Expectedly Burns threatens suffering upon Homer for what happened, only saved by his usual status quo preserving memory concerning his identity.

So, this seems just like Marge complaining. The fact that Homer is scared that Burns might fire him for not voting for him is understandable, but he goes way beyond just that and antagonizes Marge over she still supporting his opponent. And then basically forcing her to act nicely and indirectly support Burns' campaign by hosting dinner for him. She might have dealt with it some other way, although she was getting out of options. And of course, the fact that no matter what, having Burns as a governor would be terrible for everyone.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1752: Apr 21st 2023 at 8:20:24 AM

[up] Id agree to cut the Marge entry. Also I've gotten around to making the potential entries for Star Wars. I'd say the entries on Padme and Holdo can stay with everything else either being tweaked or removed. Here's what could be put in their place

  • Prequel Trilogy
  • The Last Jedi:
    • In The Last Jedi Rose Tico's decision to stop Finn from pulling his Suicide Attack on the First Order's canon is meant to be seen as an act of altruism and stopping Finn from throwing his life away needlessly. The issue is that the canon is aiming for the literal last line of defense for The Resistance, as all of their allies have either been destroyed or ignored their cry for help. With Luke not having made his presence known yet, as far as anybody knew Rose just signed their death warrant and doomed the entire Galaxy to be ruled by the First Order. Furthermore, Rose's justification of "not fighting what we hate, [but] saving what we love" is exactly what Finn was about to do, giving the impression Rose is prioritizing a guy she's had a crush on for a few days over the fate of the Galaxy.
  • The Rise of Skywalker
    • The film has Ben Solo pull a Heel–Face Turn thanks in large part due to his love for Rey. The problem is that throughout the entire trilogy (even this very film) Ben acted abusive towards Rey causing her physical and psychological harm, constantly gaslighting Rey into thinking he was the only person who cared for her, when that's patently false. Ben was even inches away from killing Rey in this film, which was only prevented thanks to his mother, Leia, pulling an intervention that cost Leia her life. Furthermore, Ben was offered multiple chances to walk away from the Dark Side in prior films but chose to reject help and double down on his villainy, which causes many to see his turn as unearned and too little, too late.
    • The end of the film has Rey bury Luke and Leia's lightsabers in the sand of Tatooine as a means to give them (and Ben who used Leia's saber in the final battle) a proper burial, on account of there being no bodies to bury. While the film intends for this to be a heartwarming gesture, instead saw Rey's means of honoring the Skywalker family as confusing at best, and actively insulting at worst. Luke had made it clear he hated Tatooine finding the place boring at best and wanted to leave the planet ASAP, with Rey's burial spot being around where Luke found his aunt and uncle's corpses. The only time Leia ever went to Tatooine she was placed into Go-Go Enslavement actively humiliated and degraded by Jabba and his lackeys. Going even further back Anakin (the original owner of Luke's lightsaber) spent the first nine years of his life on the planet as a slave, and when he returned a decade later his mother died in his arms and Anakin committed his first act of villainy. Overall, Tatooine is the worst place Rey could've picked to honor her Family of Choice. ///

Let me know what needs to be tweaked

Edited by Mariofan99 on Apr 21st 2023 at 11:40:39 AM

MinisterOfSinister From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye! from In the Hall of the Mountain King Since: Jan, 2014 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
From 'Ell's 'eart Oi stab at ye!
#1753: Apr 21st 2023 at 4:42:04 PM

[up] Well the /// at the end should be deleted. Other than that I dunno what to say.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#1754: Apr 21st 2023 at 8:20:40 PM

[up][up]Okay, so my thoughts:

  • I dunno whether this needs mentioning or not, but one thing that occurred to me while reading this is that the old Legends-continuity multimedia Clone Wars project did provide numerous more cases of sympathetic Separatists, so this is more of an issue with either ROTS when taken alone or the modern Star Wars continuity.
  • As funny as the mental image is, the "First Order canon" should be cannon. More seriously: "Furthermore, Rose's justification of "not fighting what we hate, [but] saving what we love" is exactly what Finn was about to do," - I'm not sure this is true. It does seem clear that the movie's intent is that Finn's suicide attack on the cannon wouldn't have destroyed it in the first place - he was just being stubborn and refusing to "lose". The problem is more that 1) this self-evidently didn't come across clearly enough to many viewers and 2) as the entry does already note, given the circumstances there's a strong case to be made that it didn't even matter what his motives or likelihood of success were, because it was simply that desperate a last stand. (And you could also argue as an add-on to 1 that Ramming Always Works normally does in Star Wars, and in fact did so even earlier in the same film, so the fact that Finn couldn't have pulled it off is even less clear than it might have been in a different series).
  • This is fine.
  • This is the main one of these I wonder about. It's true that Anakin had no reason to love Tatooine and Leia had no real connection to it at all, but the entry feels like it's taking for granted that Luke's petulant teenage longing to leave his childhood home is how he felt about it forever. Even ANH undercuts that, but it's subtext later on even more strongly. This is evidently not a universal point of view, but it seems more legitimately debated AFAIK compared to the other entries.

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#1755: Apr 22nd 2023 at 12:23:20 AM

[up][up][up]

  • First entry would work good on the movies only. Both Legends and Canon EU (mostly Bad Batch) did introduce number of sympathetic separatists.
  • what nrjxll said
  • fine as well.
  • Last entry sounds good when it comes to Anakin, don’t know how Liea personally felt about planet as a whole. While Luke did consider planet boring it is also place where he had stable and normal childhood.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1756: Apr 23rd 2023 at 6:11:09 AM

How's this for a revision?

  • Prequel Trilogy
  • The Last Jedi:
    • Rose Tico prevents Finn from pulling a Heroic Sacrifice by ramming his Speeder into the First Order's cannon. This is meant to be seen as an act of altruism, with stopping Finn from getting consumed by revenge and throwing his life away needlessly. The issue is that the canon is aiming for the literal last line of defense for The Resistance, as all of their allies have either been destroyed or ignored their cry for help. While the film tries to frame it like Finn had zero chance of stopping the cannon by showing his speeder melting in the laser's charge-up, the Star Wars franchise has a penchant for Ramming Always Works, with a successful example even occurring earlier in the film. Furthermore, given the dire state of The Resistance is in, Finn trying to tip the odds no matter his motives or how slim the chances are is admirable. With Luke not having made his presence known yet, as far as anybody knew Rose just signed their death warrant and doomed the entire Galaxy to be ruled by the First Order.
  • The Rise of Skywalker:

Edited by Mariofan99 on Apr 23rd 2023 at 9:55:09 AM

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#1757: Apr 23rd 2023 at 2:03:26 PM

For what it's worth, I never took the line "heroes on both sides" as trying to ennoble the Separatists in any way.

I always saw it as just "this is a war, and war heroes are a thing that exist."

I could find you countless war heroes who are also complete scumbags and fought for a nation doing horrible things.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1758: Apr 26th 2023 at 12:15:33 PM

Here's what I imagine the final page to look like let me know if you have any disagreements regarding wording or entries included

  • The Prequel Trilogy
    • Padme's tragic, doomed romance with Anakin doesn't really work out when at no point did the film furnish a reason (besides maybe good looks) for her to be attracted to him. He's surly, immature, violent, insubordinate, vaguely fascistic, and sworn to not fall in love, and she's known him for about a week. She has every reason in the world to not get secretly married to him, which makes her come across as a suicidally vapid idiot, an utterly passive abuse victim, and/or just a gigantic hypocrite for doing exactly that.
    • The Separatist Alliance is meant to be seen as a noble cause that was twisted and exploited by Palpatine making them as much of a victim as The Old Republic. The opening crawl of Revenge of the Sith even states "There are heroes on both sides". The problem is that none of the films or Star Wars: The Clone Wars ever show the good qualities of the Separatist movement, beyond a couple of citizens who end up defecting to the Republic. The Separatist leadership highlighted be warmongers at best, and sociopaths at worst. Any instances of heroic members of the Separatist Alliance or Separatist sympathizers get relegated to Expanded Universe novels and comics, a large amount of which is no longer considered canon following Disney's acquisition of the franchise.
    • The entire Jedi Order gets this in the prequel trilogy. They're meant to be the Big Good organization, a group of Lawful Good magic knights, but possessed the Fatal Flaw of being too bound up by centuries-old dogma to see something terrible is about to happen until it's tragically too late to prevent it. Unfortunately, their questionable recruiting tactics of conscripting young children and cutting them off from all family ties, taking command of an age-accelerated slave army of clones, and their grandmaster Yoda giving some astonishingly tone-deaf advice to a terrified Anakin made them look like a bunch of Church Militant jackasses instead. Likely as a response to these complaints, subsequent media like Star Wars: The Clone Wars and The Last Jedi would paint the organization in a less flattering light.
  • The Last Jedi
    • Admiral Holdo is intended to be an admirable leader who prioritizes survival instead of suicidal heroics. However, she came off as incompetent, stubborn, spiteful, and self-aggrandizing given how carelessly and maliciously she treated her crew for no real reason. After failing to motivate her troops, Holdo dismisses Poe's concerns seemingly to teach him some humility. While withholding information from Poe might seem reasonable given they don't know how they're being tracked, it still doesn't exactly make her seem like a character to root for. The reveal of her plan (and that Leia supported it) doesn't help much, since it reveals that Poe would have gone along with it had she only trusted him. Even if she has a point that Poe needed to be knocked down a peg, she still failed to keep him in check resulting in him being able to garner support to stage a mutiny. Subsequently, her sacrifice is visually stunning, but the story behind it feels somewhat hollow as she only had to make it because of her own bad behavior and her utter failure to maintain order among the crew.
    • Rose Tico prevents Finn from pulling a Heroic Sacrifice by ramming his Speeder into the First Order's cannon. This is meant to be seen as an act of altruism, stopping Finn from getting consumed by revenge and throwing his life away needlessly. The issue is that the canon is aiming for the literal last line of defense for The Resistance, as all of their allies have either been destroyed or ignored their cry for help. While the film tries to frame it like Finn had zero chance of stopping the cannon by showing his speeder melting in the laser's charge-up, the Star Wars franchise has a penchant for Ramming Always Works, with a successful example even occurring earlier in the film. Furthermore, given the dire state of The Resistance is in, Finn trying to tip the odds no matter his motives or how slim the chances are is admirable. With Luke not having made his presence known yet, as far as anybody knew Rose just signed their death warrant and doomed the entire Galaxy to be ruled by the First Order.
  • The Rise of Skywalker:
    • The film has Ben Solo pull a Heel–Face Turn thanks in large part due to his love for Rey. The problem is that throughout the entire trilogy (even this very film) Ben acted abusive towards Rey causing her physical and psychological harm, constantly gaslighting Rey into thinking he was the only person who cared for her when that's patently false. Ben was even inches away from killing Rey in this film, which was only prevented thanks to his mother, Leia, pulling an intervention that cost Leia her life. Furthermore, Ben was offered multiple chances to walk away from the Dark Side in prior films but chose to reject help and double down on his villainy, which causes many to see his turn as unearned and too little, too late.
    • The end of the film has Rey bury Luke and Leia's lightsabers in the sand of Tatooine as a means to give them (and Ben who used Leia's saber in the final battle) a proper burial after they left no body behind when they became one with the Force. While the film intends for this to be a heartwarming gesture, several viewers saw Rey's means of honoring the Skywalker family as confusing at best and actively insulting at worst. Luke overall had a low opinion of Tatooine as a result of the hostile environment and his longing for adventure, after his Aunt and Uncle were murdered, Luke only returned to the planet a single time and it was for the sake of a mission. Said mission had Leia placed into Go-Go Enslavement where she was actively humiliated and degraded by Jabba, meaning she likely has no pleasant memories of Tatooine. Going even further back, Anakin (the original owner of Luke's lightsaber) spent the first nine years of his life on the planet as a slave, and when he returned a decade later his mother died in his arms and Anakin committed his first act of villainy. Overall, Tatooine is one of the worst places Rey could've picked to honor her Family of Choice.

Edited by Mariofan99 on Apr 26th 2023 at 3:16:00 PM

SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#1759: Apr 27th 2023 at 5:05:24 PM

I found this on Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness:

  • Unintentionally Sympathetic:
  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: The movie shows that, apparently, none of the surviving Avengers, not even Clint Barton or Sam Wilson whom Wanda was closest to, provided her with support in her grief even though she obviously badly needed it given the events of WandaVision. While it’s understandable they would be more focused on their own lives after the Snap (as well as conveniently partaking in their own stories) it still unintentionally makes them look incredibly heartless to their traumatised teammate. While Wanda’s deeds are diabolical and are not excused at all, she was pretty much neglected and abandoned in her grief and loneliness by allies who should absolutely have been looking after her (or, at least, make sure that she visited a therapist like Bucky did), which only make Wanda look more sympathetic than she should be, as she comes out as a mentally and emotionally fragile woman desperately trying to find a way of being happy. The worse of all them is Strange, his banter in this movie shows that he clearly knew where Wanda was and what she did in Westview, yet, he never invited her to Kamar-Taj to train her magic with fellow magic users, relieving her at least from feeling lonely, only doing it when they need her. In fact, the Darkhold's corruption over Wanda and the following Sanity Slippage could not be that deep had Strange reach Wanda right after Westview. Again, with Wanda being a Base-Breaking Character, I don't know how universal this sentiment that the other Avengers should've helped her is.

Edited by SharkToast on Apr 27th 2023 at 5:05:55 AM

MisterApes-a-lot Since: Mar, 2018
#1760: Apr 27th 2023 at 9:24:14 PM

[up] Would that second entry even count if it was a more common sentiment? It's about characters who aren't even in the film, and certainly aren't meant to be sympathetic for their inaction.

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#1761: Apr 28th 2023 at 12:28:08 AM

Yeah, that one's a huge reach. There's a lot of poorly written entries like that in the MCU pages that talk about characters in no way connected to the film in question. Definitely cut.

And the first one is bringing up stuff that was definitely one hundred percent intentional on the part of the writers. We as an audience fully understand Wanda's motivations and the many tragedies she's been through.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1762: Apr 28th 2023 at 6:02:03 AM

[up][up][up] Id say delete both for the reasons cited

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1764: Apr 29th 2023 at 7:32:58 AM

If nobody has any objections to my Star Wars examples I'm going to add them

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#1765: Apr 29th 2023 at 9:04:10 AM

I actually do object to the very last one about Rey burying Luke's lightsaber on Tatooine, as I said - I guess that didn't come across as clearly as I meant it too.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1766: Apr 29th 2023 at 11:03:21 AM

I wasn't sure if my rewrite was enough. I have seen this complaint crop up in several reviews of the film and people discussing but I guess it does rely quite a bit on assumptions

AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#1767: Apr 30th 2023 at 9:45:51 PM

  • Janie from Their Eyes Were Watching God. Her first husband spends the first few months of their marriage waiting on her hand and foot, but when he eventually starts expecting her to pull her weight around the farm she runs off with the first young hottie she sees. She even tells her grandmother that Husband #1 is completely incapable of ever being loved by anyone...because he's ugly. Her issues with Husband #2 are more legit (he hits her at one point), but even then it's hard to sympathize—unlike Husband #1, he doesn't want her to work much, but then she just complains more about being bored and how the little work she has (watching the store) is too much math for her poor little head. Then she tells him off on his deathbed and at one point blames all her problems on her dead grandma, who told her not to run off with Husband #2 in the first place. Jeez!

God I dont want to be mean to the troper who wrote this but JEEZ!

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
skan123 Since: Aug, 2018
#1768: May 2nd 2023 at 2:57:09 PM

1. Keep your emotions a bit more in check, yes?

2. Where is the source of this entry? As in, the work?

AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#1769: May 2nd 2023 at 7:31:51 PM

Sorry. Emotions seem to be hard to handle lately for me. Especially with an entry like this. The work is Their Eyes Were Watching God and its an entry for Unintentionally Unsympathetic. I apologize for the emotional response I had.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1770: May 10th 2023 at 10:42:54 AM

How's this for https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/BeautyAndTheBeast2017

  • Beast's decision to let Belle go and see her father ends up looking very foolish and callous given the specifics of the curse in this version. In the original film, all that was said if the curse wasn't broken was the transformation of the Beast and the castle residents would be permanent, given the denizens didn't seem to bothered by their transformation Beast letting Belle go wasn't seen as a bad thing. In contrast, the remake adds that all the denizens turned into objects will become mobile and inanimate if the curse isn't broken. This means when the Beast lets Belle go, instead of seeing an Act of True Love the audience sees him dooming his entire castle (which includes a child) to A Fate Worse Than Death for the sake of a single elderly man, who likely doesn't have much longer to live anyway.

Edited by Mariofan99 on May 10th 2023 at 1:44:23 PM

ElBuenCuate Since: Oct, 2010
#1771: May 10th 2023 at 12:48:41 PM

...for the sake of a single elderly man, who likely doesn't have much longer to live anyway.

Ignoring for now if this is actually a widespread view of the movie to actually count... That is a really despicable way of putting it. Are old people just no longer important and should just be let to die because they "will no longer live anyway?"

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#1772: May 10th 2023 at 12:51:46 PM

I am not sure if the Jedi is UU. As the Films and the Clone Wars make it clear, while Order 66 is meant to be tragic, the Jedi Order have lost their way a long time ago.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1773: May 10th 2023 at 12:58:30 PM

[up][up] I think what it's getting at is a type of trolley problem: Sacrifice an old man to save you and your friends?

Now, IDK if that mentality is actually widespread as a reaction to this film, however I agree that while the wording is off I understand what point it's making: that many would see such a sacrifice as valid, even if morally gray, because more people get saved in the end,

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#1774: May 10th 2023 at 1:38:27 PM

The last part could probably be axed and just say "in favour of a single man" so it's more of a point about The Needs of the Many.

Oissu!
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1775: May 10th 2023 at 2:46:20 PM

[up][up][up] I’ll admit i probably worded that last part poorly. As for how widespread it is, I know it was a major part of Linsey Ellis’ Critque of the film. I was trying to find a way to phrase without just copying her, with Ellis specifically citing the act of true love was turned into a trolley problem

As for Star Wars I noted in the revised entry that susequent media potrayed them intentionally as unsympathetic but overall it feels it was unintentional in the prequel trilogy itself

Edited by Mariofan99 on May 10th 2023 at 5:48:19 AM


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