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Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

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The criteria for Unintentionally Unsympathetic says:

"When a character's supposed insecurities or embarrassing quirks are supposed to inspire sympathy, but fail to impress the audience because they're mishandled or plain written badly. It can be made even worse if they have to learn a lesson. Without being at least somewhat invested in the characters, the audience might have passed the point of caring when the character finally comes around."

This is the basic criteria of the trope. There is more after but I am not sure what was present from the start and what was edited in afterwords to expand the definition. This trope is becoming more popular, with the page starting to be split-off into sub pages and such. And like all popular YMMV tropes this is causing an influx of bad examples that are probably just one-sided complaining, shoehorning, and bashing which is not in the spirit of this wiki. You can see this is causing issues just by looking at the pages discussion thread. I felt that the trope needed a dedicated cleanup thread. This way edits can be done without causing edit wars and getting people banned.

Some guidelines if a character or event is Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

1. It has to be unintentional on the authors part. It is in the title. All examples that were intentional on the author's part are disqualified by definition.

2. The example should state exactly why the author or narrative intended the subject to have been sympathetic and why it failed to resonate with the audience. If the example can not clearly state these two points, it is a bad example and needs to at minimum be rewritten.

3. Neutral tone: No insults. I know it is fun to complain about stuff but complaining is not in the spirit of the wiki. So long as one side isn't promoting hate speech examples should be written without taking a side. Examples that are heavily favoring one side or insulting the other side are probably not valid examples.

4. There should be a wide accepted disagreement between the audience and the author to be a valid example. By that I mean that there should be large consensus in the audience disagreeing with the author over why the character is unsympathetic instead of sympathetic. If the audience is too divided and one section thinks agrees with the author and the other doesn't, the example could be a pet peeve of a single person, which isn’t noteworthy.

Lastly, always consider Square Peg, Round Trope and be mindful if the example may fit better under a different trope such as Base-Breaking Character, Broken Base, and The Scrappy. Please visit other cleanup threads if you have questions about tropes that do not involve Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

Feel free to help if you spot some bad examples or can point out more rules for the trope. Or argue with me over the definitions, this is a cleanup thread after all.

MOD NOTICE: As of October 26, 2022, this thread now covers Unintentionally Sympathetic as well.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 26th 2022 at 8:15:48 AM

WhirlRX Since: Jan, 2015
#1501: Dec 2nd 2022 at 2:56:35 PM

I vaguely remember the segment and i believe Fatman only wants the donut because he wants tobeat it himself. Fatman is really being the jerk here. I say cut.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1502: Dec 2nd 2022 at 3:02:14 PM

Ehhh, while "just stop being fat" is... an extremely dumb thing to say, offensive opinions can still be up if it's a legit audience reaction that fits the description...

...which I don't believe this is, because it's written as a personal rant just based on what one character says... which boils down to "this character says he's bullied for being fat and I agree so I hate the victim", rather than anything actually done to make the victim unsympathetic.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#1503: Dec 2nd 2022 at 3:04:47 PM

I love you...r way of thinking Warjay. You are awesome.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
Mattman_the_Storyteller Since: Aug, 2018
#1504: Dec 4th 2022 at 11:42:57 AM

Does anyone have something to say about my previous post?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1505: Dec 4th 2022 at 11:45:12 AM

It's hard to say anything when I don't know the work and thus can't say for certain that your example is legit, exaggerated, false, or what have you.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#1506: Dec 7th 2022 at 5:42:02 PM

Hello. New to this thread, and I've been off other threads for a while, but I thought I'd bring this up here.

Found this on The Quarry. Now most of the UU or US entries written for the game are pretty short, except the Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry for Emma.

I'm putting this in a folder, because this "entry" reads like an essay.

    Emma's "entry" 

  • Emma is meant to be a Lovable Alpha Bitch whose storyline is to emphasize that even women you find bitchy or obnoxious are allowed to be firm about their boundaries in relationships, and are not required to cave on them or be soft or nice about it to spare other people's feelings. Instead what we get is a sexual predator who is violently abusive toward Jacob—to varying degrees, based on the player's choices, but usually those are in response to choices made as other characters, not the player choosing her characterization themself.
    • She kisses Nick after he says he doesn't think it's a good idea; he freezes up when she chooses him, and is clearly paralyzed, uncomfortable, and unable to look at her before and after the kiss— all so she could make Jacob jealous. Even if she'd actually been pushed into a corner she could have if nothing else given him a quick peck on the cheek, and instead climbs into his lap to make out with him at length; this is a total moot point, though, because it had already been established that consent was a veto for kissing dares. She fully chose to do what she did, the way she did, and repeatedly, graphically brags about how 'good' he was after. This is not only unavoidable in every playthrough, but an important plot point for various character arcs.
    • She triggers Jacob's arachnophobia on purpose for kicks and views, laughs at how terrified and upset he is, and keeps the recording despite him being humiliated and angry that she took it, and clearly not wanting her to post it.
    • She takes creepshots of his ass for her followers from behind his back without his knowledge, and later starts recording him stripping without his permission at the campfire.
    • She can come within inches of smashing his hand or kicking his head in from behind for shits and giggles by kicking the door down if he's too slow (and possibly for calmly telling her her objectifying, bodyshaming analogies are hurtful), and congratulates herself smugly while he lies on the ground terrified after.
    • In one path on the island she fantasizes about stalking him to his house in a wedding dress after camp is over to 'scare him off,' and says she's genuinely considering it; in the other path, she makes plans to put him through a series of pranks—her ideas for which include poisoning him—and getting her followers in on the harassment... as punishment for leaving a romantic interaction with her before she was done with him.
    • Punches him in the face for, once again, leaving said interaction—without taking away any of the methods she'd have had to leave the island anyway, no less; all he did was swim off.
    • Sexually harasses him by repeatedly following him around when he tries to leave a situation so that she can graphically describe making out with Nick, when she knows he'll find it distressing and doesn't want to hear it, and tells him the only way for him to stop being distressed by it is to come back and do what she wants.
    • All this isn't even getting into the verbal and emotional abuse she aims at Jacob, of which there is a LOT.
    • She also displays abusive behavior toward Abi by willingly hurting her 'for her own good' to force her into pursuing a relationship on Emma's terms; she also forces her to Mercy Kill a dying squirrel with a rock instead of doing it herself, when Abi who is shown to squee over cute animals is clearly already a guilty traumatized mess over having hit it. Even worse, in the process of waiting for Abi to make the decision, Emma just prolongs the squirrel's suffering, and if Abi can't bring herself to do it she guilts her afterward by saying it 'would have been cruel not to.' At no point is she shown making any effort to comfort her about this in either version of the scene. The cherry on top is that this is portrayed as a humanizing moment to make her look compassionate, sensible, and kind.
    • Disturbingly, not only does she constantly justify all of this to herself, the narrative barely if ever acknowledges that most of these things happened or might have happened, and she is never meaningfully called out on anything that she does. Jacob is the only one who calls her on things regularly, some unreasonable and some VERY reasonable, and in the latter case no one ever backs him up and nothing ever comes of it; Nick and Abi criticize her slightly after the kiss at the campfire, but it's immediately dismissed as something she's not actually responsible for, and Nick even says that he enjoyed it; and Abi can call her out in the storm shelter for using her as a prop their entire friendship. The response she gets is 'sorry you feel that way,' followed by Emma confirming that's exactly what was happening, followed by Emma making it about her own feelings, followed by Emma successfully pushing her to reluctantly dismiss it and joke around with her.

Now, I'm only recently revisiting The Quarry, and not that active in the fandom, but from what I see so far, Emma is fairly popular, at worst being a Base-Breaking Character.

From what I'm seeing, the consensus was her kissing Nick was her worst offence; that, and being mean to Jacob, who himself is a Base Breaker (the guy has both a Ron the Death Eater entry and Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry) and a lot of the other characters joke at his expense.

But back to Emma ? Again, she appears to be a Base-Breaking Character at worst, and seeing as the entry(ies) is written mostly by one trooper, if feels more like they are writing their own pet peeve onto the character. At the very least it could be condensed down to a single entry.

Edited by Beast on Dec 7th 2022 at 6:16:52 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#1507: Dec 8th 2022 at 6:20:57 AM

Noting that we have a conversation about page quotes relevant to this cleanup.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Javertshark13 Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#1508: Dec 8th 2022 at 6:16:02 PM

The YMMV page for Carrie has these entries:

  • Unintentionally Sympathetic: Carrie herself is guilty of mass murder and destroying her hometown. But considering the torment she faced, and how nobody (except for a handful of people) gave her the support network she needed, most readers cheer her rampage.
  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Carrie's massacre of so many students is considered In-Universe to be a massive tragedy, though it's unclear if the reader is meant to agree. But many people who read the book or watch the movie don't feel particularly bad for them, since a lot of them either were mean to Carrie or didn't bother to help her. It doesn't help that many of them might have laughed at Carrie's anguish, which finally set her off.

I don't think this is accurate because Carrie is clearly portrayed as a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, and her bullies are portrayed as totally vile and not sympathetic at all (though the book tries to make Chris's death an Alas, Poor Villain moment, which does qualify for UU). If anything, maybe the entries should be reversed, since some readers feel Carrie goes beyond sympathy for murdering so many people, even if they were innocent.

Edited by Javertshark13 on Dec 8th 2022 at 9:21:07 AM

CompletelyNormalGuy Am I a weirdo? from a place where folks put cream cheese on hot dogs (Oldest One in the Book)
Am I a weirdo?
#1509: Dec 8th 2022 at 6:39:17 PM

[up]Agreed. I'd say cut them both.

Bigotry will NEVER be welcome on TV Tropes.
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#1510: Dec 9th 2022 at 9:50:36 PM

[up][up]I agree the Unintentionally Sympathetic entry should be removed because she's deliberately depicted as sympathetic. I also feel the Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry doesn't count because, as the example itself pointed out, it's not clear if she's supposed to come off like she's in the right. If my memory is correct, she isn't depicted that way.

However, I feel the entry could be rewritten to be about Chris' death instead because that was supposed to be an Alas, Poor Villain moment. However, it didn't work due to how horrible he is.

To be fair, while I watched the original 1976 film and a bit of the 2013 one, I haven't read the book.

ovskii Since: Jun, 2018
#1511: Dec 11th 2022 at 3:12:34 PM

It was suggested that I bring this discussion/issue here:

I've taken a look at the history of the Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry on She-Hulk, and read over the discussions on it. I think it clearly has a place here, though I do think the wording can be changed. I think that the main thing that made quite a few viewers offended at Jen is that she was claiming (or at least strongly implying) that she is much better at controlling her anger than Bruce because her life is that much harder, when all Bruce did, was tell her that having emotional control is important to help her control her Hulk-form. As people have mentioned, this completely minimizes Bruce's struggles in getting where he is now (including a suicidal episode). Also, this idea that people didn't like this because it showed a woman teaching a man about the struggles of being a woman is an actual "bad-faith" argument. In or out-of-context, what Jen said would have been fine if she didn't put-down Bruce, which is what she did.

Though I realize this was not the intention of the writers or even Jen (it's never made clear if she knows those details about Bruce's past), this still counts as UU because she is never challenged on this, and Bruce just seems to accept this statement despite it being highly insulting. She just leaves after this and it's never brought up. It's not really "bad faith" to say that, that's an implication the dialogue unintentionally makes. This was a major criticism from many viewers from the first episode, and though there are decent counterarguments, I think it is dishonest to just pretend it doesn't exist here. If anything, this is at least an example of Broken Base (which cannot be added for at least another month or so) or Don't Shoot the Message. Or alternatively, it could be an example of Unintentionally Sympathetic for Bruce.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#1512: Dec 11th 2022 at 3:39:22 PM

In the previous discussion on this thread, the conversation was mainly about whether the specific entry being queried involved bad faith interpretation of the scene, so my response at the time was based on that subject. What I would say here, however, is that there are two parts to UU and US: it's not just about whether it's triggered a sympathetic or unsympathetic response, it's also about whether it's unintentional.

Having seen the entire series, but engaging only rarely with the work's pages on this site, I think the biggest long-term problem for whether this scene counts is identifying how unintentional it is rather than whether or not people find her unsympathetic. The reason I say this is because of things that happen at the end of the series.

Given how the show ends up debunking quite a few of the positions she took when Bruce was trying to teach her about being a Hulk, she was set up to be quite dismissive of his concerns because she believed she was getting a handle on it super-fast and, specific to the scene in question, because they had different life experiences, which put them in different emotional headspaces. However, things happen throughout the series that cause her to have to revise her original attitude (whether directly or indirectly acknowledged). The series climax returned to the issue of Hulk rage, and this time it played out pretty much as Bruce warned.

So, my question isn't whether people should be debating the sympathetic/unsympathetic part, but whether it can be confirmed that it's unintentional for people to want to object to Jen's attitude, given that the plot bites her in the arse with it later on.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Dec 11th 2022 at 3:53:44 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
ovskii Since: Jun, 2018
#1513: Dec 11th 2022 at 6:46:10 PM

^ That's a fair point. With that in mind, I suppose it could be an example of Character Development for Jen. Maybe it's an example of Misaimed Fandom? With one group of fans fully supporting Jen and one group fully supporting Bruce, when the intention was that they both had valid points. Then again, I guess there's no way of confirming what the intention was until one if the creators explains it in the future.

Edited by ovskii on Dec 11th 2022 at 11:02:23 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#1514: Dec 11th 2022 at 7:19:45 PM

My issue is that the show clearly shows that Bruce is right. Like his warnings come true. I can't see that as unintentional unless we have word of God.

That said I do feel like it's something I am just not sure it's this. Don't Shoot the Message is the closest I can think of.

Edited by Bullman on Dec 11th 2022 at 9:22:51 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#1515: Dec 12th 2022 at 6:21:11 PM

Yeah, it does seem more like Don't Shoot the Message.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
TwilightPegasus Since: Apr, 2019
#1516: Dec 17th 2022 at 3:47:27 PM

I found this on the YMMV page for Rune Factory 5, and I don't think the example the person cited really reflects what the trope actually represents.

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Priscilla is known to have a fear of leaving town and this fear carries over to gameplay by preventing you from bringing her to Belpha Ruins. Her and Lucy's love stories reveal that when they were children, they planned to explore the Belpha Ruins, but Lucy came down with a fever. Priscilla went alone and was eventually found severely injured and brought to the clinic. While Lucy blames herself for this and for hiding in her room when she saw Priscilla's horrible condition. Elsje even points out Priscilla made her own decision to enter the ruins in an effort to help Lucy.

As someone who's played the game in question, while the poster was right in that yes, a young child going to a dungeon alone is reckless and dangerous, the character who went there had no way of knowing that she'd find scientists doing human experimentation at the bottom of said dungeon, along with an out of control monster. This entry just seems like vague complaining, but I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1517: Dec 17th 2022 at 3:51:51 PM

The grammar is weird at the end, and it does seem odd to blame a child for leaving home. Kids aren't going to make the rational choice.

Do any fans blame Priscilla for what happened, or is it just someone's take?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
TwilightPegasus Since: Apr, 2019
#1518: Dec 17th 2022 at 5:04:36 PM

The grammar is weird at the end, and it does seem odd to blame a child for leaving home. Kids aren't going to make the rational choice.

Do any fans blame Priscilla for what happened, or is it just someone's take?

Yeah, the grammar confused me too, which might be why I was thrown off.

I haven't seen anyone else say the same thing about Priscilla, and in-game, Priscilla is consistently shown as a nice, gentle, caring girl who wants to overcome her own issues. Then again, I may be biased as she's my favorite character in the game. I have played the game and I feel that the game does do a good job at making her sympathetic, and didn't notice anything that showed otherwise in the narrative.

Edited by TwilightPegasus on Dec 17th 2022 at 5:05:28 AM

WiryAiluropodine Since: Sep, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1519: Dec 24th 2022 at 9:29:01 PM

Found this trope on the YMMV page for Diamond is Unbreakable.

  • Unintentionally Sympathetic: Possibly crossing over into Draco in Leather Pants territory, but Yoshikage Kira himself can be seen as this prior to his transformation into Kosaku-Kira, and maybe after learning his backstory. Yes, he's a serial killer who murders women for their hands, but this comes across more as a byproduct of his undiagnosed mental issues rather than something conscientiously voluntary. He even outright says to Shigechi, "I choose not to concern myself with winning or losing, life's troubles, or enemies who bring sleepless nights. That is how I cope with this backwards life we find ourselves living. It's what brings me happiness in a world fraught with hardship and misery." This implies that, had he not gotten his fixation for severed hands through looking at the Mona Lisa as a child, he could've very well grown up into a normal, perfectly sane person.

In addition to it questioning its own validity via mentioning the Draco in Leather Pants trope, the edit both (a) makes it sound like Araki intended for Kira to be seen as irredeemable, when in truth he does possess a number of (if not redeeming than at least) mitigating factors and Hidden Depths that prevent him from being a Complete Monster like DIO and (b) takes what Kira says to Shigechi at face value. As his character page acknowledges, Kira is ultimately a Hypocrite whose claims that he desires a quiet life and despises confrontation completely fall apart when you remember that he's a Serial Killer whose desire for a quiet life is more him wanting to be able indulge in his sick urges without risk of being caught and punished (something Josuke and Okuyasu point out to him in the final confrontation) rather than him being a Reluctant Psycho.

Making the argument that the only reason Kira became a deranged Serial Killer with a hand-fetish was because he looked at the Mona Lisa as a child is also pretty weird, kind of speculative, and deliberately ignores both Kira's own agency and any other potential incidents that may have contributed to him becoming the man we see in Part 4.

Edited by WiryAiluropodine on Dec 25th 2022 at 4:35:03 AM

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#1520: Dec 24th 2022 at 10:54:48 PM

At no point does the story try to make Yoshikage Kira sympathetic, nor actually attributes his behavior to a mental disorder. The Mona Lisa thing is actually to make him creepier, and is only given a passing mention. In most of his appearances he's stylized to have an inhuman presence.

He is Evil Is Cool, but I highly doubt the audience agrees with what's he's doing beside the "ho patrol" memes.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#1521: Dec 25th 2022 at 9:50:15 PM

I feel that might work better as Alternate Character Interpretation not as Unintentionally Sympathetic because this seems to be more based on at least one person's interpretation of Kira than something the work itself suggests.

If it actually does get reused as the former, though, it will need to be rewritten. This is especially in regards to the speculative troping, which will need to go.

Mattman_the_Storyteller Since: Aug, 2018
#1522: Dec 26th 2022 at 5:35:24 PM

Rewriting my Unintentionally Unsympathetic suggestion for the following Ninjago character. Does anyone think this fits? Spoilers ahead!

[down] My mistake. Hopefully this post is much shorter now.


Harumi suffered a huge Trauma Conga Line after losing her parents in the Great Devourer's attack on Ninjago, and the Ninja's failure to stop such a tragedy, as well as Lord Garmadon being the one to kill the Devourer directly, all inspire her to become evil as well. The story tries to paint her as a Tragic Villain who becomes conflicted and isn't beyond redemption, as shown when she goes out of her way to prevent the same tragedy she suffered from happening to another family at the cost of her life, as well as hint that she had genuinely fallen in love with Lloyd after all. The problem is that Harumi still remorselessly committed so many atrocities and her relationship with Lloyd also comes off as toxic considering how she strung him along and subjected him to Kick the Dog time and again, especially when she gloats about how Garmadon now cares for her over him. When Lloyd points out that Garmadon's tyrannical rule would likely rob children of their families and make them suffer the same loss she went through, Harumi didn't care, making her Redemption Equals Death moment above come off as forced. And even that's negated when she's resurrected as the Overlord's herald and she continues to be evil, only turning on him when the Overlord reveals he corrupted the Great Devourer and indirectly caused her parents' deaths. All of this makes Harumi comes off as less than a sympathetic figure, and more of a bratty child who idolizes evil.

Edited by Mattman_the_Storyteller on Dec 27th 2022 at 1:03:16 AM

SoyValdo7 I mainly fix indentation issues from La tierra de lagos y volcanes Since: Sep, 2022 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
I mainly fix indentation issues
#1523: Dec 26th 2022 at 5:57:06 PM

[up] First of all. That a wall of text.

Valdo
emeriin Since: Jan, 2001
#1524: Jan 1st 2023 at 11:35:12 AM

From Star Wars:

Anakin Skywalker. He's meant to be a basically decent guy who's grappling with a dark side until Palpatine pushes him over, but he really doesn't need a lot of prompting to do so, with some feeling that killing children should have outright put him Beyond Redemption. Even on his own terms, he seems like kind of a maladjusted jerk. His relationship with Padme is meant to be awkward but earnest and loving, but it's so badly written that he comes off as a creep lusting over someone he hasn't seen in ten years instead, and he also acts like a whiny brat, especially when talking to his master, Obi Wan. The heroic acts that would normally make up for this are instead mostly confined to expository dialogue. The Clone Wars is often praised for rectifying this through retroactively presenting Anakin with more heroic qualities, as well as the events leading to his inevitable descent into evil with more depth and nuance.

Is it okay to delete this? He's meant to be flawed and bratty with a temper (foreshadowing and all that), and slightly creepy to Padme, and acting like "he's meant to be a basically decent guy" feels like bad faith.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1525: Jan 1st 2023 at 11:48:32 AM

Uh that is a weird entry. George in a DVD commentary even said he deserved his fate of getting burned alive at the end of revenge since he had brought it on himself.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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