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Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

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The criteria for Unintentionally Unsympathetic says:

"When a character's supposed insecurities or embarrassing quirks are supposed to inspire sympathy, but fail to impress the audience because they're mishandled or plain written badly. It can be made even worse if they have to learn a lesson. Without being at least somewhat invested in the characters, the audience might have passed the point of caring when the character finally comes around."

This is the basic criteria of the trope. There is more after but I am not sure what was present from the start and what was edited in afterwords to expand the definition. This trope is becoming more popular, with the page starting to be split-off into sub pages and such. And like all popular YMMV tropes this is causing an influx of bad examples that are probably just one-sided complaining, shoehorning, and bashing which is not in the spirit of this wiki. You can see this is causing issues just by looking at the pages discussion thread. I felt that the trope needed a dedicated cleanup thread. This way edits can be done without causing edit wars and getting people banned.

Some guidelines if a character or event is Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

1. It has to be unintentional on the authors part. It is in the title. All examples that were intentional on the author's part are disqualified by definition.

2. The example should state exactly why the author or narrative intended the subject to have been sympathetic and why it failed to resonate with the audience. If the example can not clearly state these two points, it is a bad example and needs to at minimum be rewritten.

3. Neutral tone: No insults. I know it is fun to complain about stuff but complaining is not in the spirit of the wiki. So long as one side isn't promoting hate speech examples should be written without taking a side. Examples that are heavily favoring one side or insulting the other side are probably not valid examples.

4. There should be a wide accepted disagreement between the audience and the author to be a valid example. By that I mean that there should be large consensus in the audience disagreeing with the author over why the character is unsympathetic instead of sympathetic. If the audience is too divided and one section thinks agrees with the author and the other doesn't, the example could be a pet peeve of a single person, which isn’t noteworthy.

Lastly, always consider Square Peg, Round Trope and be mindful if the example may fit better under a different trope such as Base-Breaking Character, Broken Base, and The Scrappy. Please visit other cleanup threads if you have questions about tropes that do not involve Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

Feel free to help if you spot some bad examples or can point out more rules for the trope. Or argue with me over the definitions, this is a cleanup thread after all.

MOD NOTICE: As of October 26, 2022, this thread now covers Unintentionally Sympathetic as well.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 26th 2022 at 8:15:48 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1476: Nov 12th 2022 at 12:00:02 PM

Yes.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Mattman_the_Storyteller Since: Aug, 2018
#1477: Nov 12th 2022 at 6:00:50 PM

I hope the details I just added to my suggestion for Belda will help, as well as these previous posts regarding Vanitas might help provide some context (I'm holding off on Killer Croc for the time being), but just in case...



Example from Video Games page for Unintentionally Sympathetic
  • Vanitas: When Xehanort divided Ventus's heart into a light half and a dark half, both were, of course, incomplete. Ventus (the light half) was able to use Sora to "fill in" the missing part of his heart, making it complete again, whereas Vanitas (the dark half) had no such luck. This leaves him with a sense of emptiness that can only be assuaged by recombining with Ventus; accomplishing this is the only thing he cares about. Ventus, on the other hand, wants nothing to do with him. Although it's never brought up in canon, fans realize that Vanitas is just as much "Ventus" as Ventus himself is—they're the same person, so from Vanitas's perspective he's being stripped of his own identity and rejected by himself.
    • This would get addressed in Kingdom Hearts III: ReꚚMind when Ventus promises to take Vanitas home into his heart because, being 2 parts of a whole, they're one and the same. However, Vanitas rebukes this by claiming he was always an individual presence in Ventus and Master Xehanort simply tore him out. The Kingdom Hearts χ games seem to support this by implying that Vanitas is actually one of the 13 original Darknesses that hid away within Ven's heart just before the latter took the Ark and traveled to the future. Kingdom Hearts Dark Road reveals that Master Xehanort even suspected this was the case, though Vanitas does not confirm or deny it when the former tries to press him for answers. Since the topic is thrown into question at the moment, should this example be deleted?

Edited by Mattman_the_Storyteller on Nov 12th 2022 at 6:46:43 AM

SoyValdo7 I mainly fix indentation issues from La tierra de lagos y volcanes Since: Sep, 2022 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
I mainly fix indentation issues
#1478: Nov 12th 2022 at 7:59:56 PM

[up] We already talk about the Vanitas one. If I remember correctly, the games did try to give him some depth. In other words, they "intentionally" try to make him "sympathetic". You can cut that one out.

You can also cut the The Witch and the Hundred Knight example on grounds that YMMV tropes can't be played with.

Edited by SoyValdo7 on Nov 12th 2022 at 10:16:53 AM

Valdo
Mattman_the_Storyteller Since: Aug, 2018
#1479: Nov 12th 2022 at 9:07:51 PM

[up] Actually, Belda hasn't been added as an Unintentionally Unsympathetic example, I was asking if I could add this as an example. Some of this explanation came from The Scrappy entry on YMMV page for The Witch and the Hundred Knight as well as her character profile and I just typed this up on my post as a summary. I also wasn’t completely sure if the example was downplayed or played straight since the story does treat her as a despicable antagonist otherwise and the only thing keeping her from being a Hate Sink is her Freudian Excuse. If Belda was a straight example, would she be acceptable? As for Vanitas, are you saying I can remove the entry?

Edited by Mattman_the_Storyteller on Nov 12th 2022 at 9:28:54 AM

SoyValdo7 I mainly fix indentation issues from La tierra de lagos y volcanes Since: Sep, 2022 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
I mainly fix indentation issues
#1480: Nov 12th 2022 at 9:46:08 PM

Yes, you can remove it, although I can be wrong...

Anyway, as I already mentioned, YMMV tropes can't be played with it can only be played straight. And based on your summary, it's more likely that the developers intended to make her a Tragic Villain. Villains are allowed to have sad backstories and still be evil. It serves as an explanation for their actions, not as a justification.

Valdo
SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#1481: Nov 12th 2022 at 9:49:04 PM

This is from Family Guy S12 E11 "Brian's a Bad Father":

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic:
    • Quagmire is meant to be sympathetic when he gets callously shot in the arm by Peter, except his actions as a rapist and hypocrisy in his hatred for Brian actually make people think what happened to him is the least of what he deserves.
    • Even Joe gets a taste of this. He sides with Quagmire because, in his own words, he's always been there for him. However, the accuracy of this is up for debate and it was shown in previous episodes that Quagmire has done horrible things to Joe, for instance the episode "April In Quahog" where Quagmire dupes Joe into letting him have sex with Bonnie (though granted, Joe was more amused than upset). Not to mention there have been episodes where Peter is shown being a good friend to Joe. In fact, Joe looks a lot worse when one remembers that a few episodes back, he tells Peter (who was actually Quagmire in disguise) that Quagmire is needy and jealous of his and Peter's friendship. It comes off as him stringing both Peter and Quagmire along and makes him look like he's the worst friend of the three. He also gets this for the scene in the episode where he does not react to Peter molesting his daughter.

The thing is, Quagmire isn't universally hated. He's more of a Base-Breaking Character. I just checked out the comments on a Youtube video showing the scene where Quagmire shoots Peter. A lot of people think Peter got what he deserved.

Regarding the Joe example, Family Guy runs on Negative Continuity. Something Quagmire did to Joe in one episode might not even be canon.

Edited by SharkToast on Nov 12th 2022 at 9:49:33 AM

RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#1482: Nov 13th 2022 at 8:44:54 PM

[up]I feel your reasoning is enough to remove both entries, though the part about Joe not reacting to Peter molesting Susie could use its own entry. (I don't know exactly how it's depicted since, outside of some clips on YouTube, I dropped modern Family Guy.)

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Nov 14th 2022 at 5:09:43 AM

SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#1483: Nov 14th 2022 at 4:59:12 PM

The context for the scene is that Peter meant to give Susie a raspberry, but misses and kisses her somewhere inappropriate.

PlasmaPower Piece of Cake. Since: Jan, 2015
Piece of Cake.
#1484: Nov 14th 2022 at 5:04:06 PM

YMMV.Fantastic Four 2018

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic:
    • Franklin's Character Development in the Dan Slott run is controversial because of how he is simply a Jerkass. The comic tries to justify his attitude from his diminishing powers, but fans think that it doesn't excuse his attitude. It gives him no right to use Alicia's, his own aunt's, blindness against her and then demand his family thank him for doing so because he is giving up a piece of himself in lieu of apologizing. He proceeds to whine about being punished. It's even worse when you consider that previous iterations of Franklin had Franklin handle the very same losses and trauma with a lot more maturity, despite being half the age he is in this book.

I remember bringing this example up a long time ago due to it being complainy, since I didn't know how I could rewrite the entry to be more neutral. Was wondering if anyone here more familiar with the Fantastic Four could think up something to make it better.

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!
WiryAiluropodine Since: Sep, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1485: Nov 14th 2022 at 10:49:57 PM

A while back, a troper argued that Atreus fell under the Unintentionally Unsympathetic trope in God of War: Ragnarök. Recent add-ons to the edit seem to point to the idea that what is being described may not in fact be unintentional on the developer's part.

For further context:

The lesson Kratos learns about trusting his son (and others) was very much needed for him to grow into the man he is by the end of the game. But for most of the story, Atreus is nothing but untrustworthy. He went behind his father's back to study Loki, continues to do so after coming clean and after unintentionally disappearing to Jotunheim for two days, all while refusing to elaborate on where he's been — even if Atreus was trying to protect Angrboda and Ironwood at her request by keeping his movements secret. The whole time, Atreus demands his father trust him in spite of the fact that Atreus has done nothing but lie and hide his intentions. The rest of the adults even agree with Kratos and rightfully call out Atreus for thinking he could fix everything all by himself. In the end, it's played realistically: Atreus lampshades himself that Kratos' lack of trust is entirely justified, but he's emotionally unequipped to resolve it.

Should the edit be removed?

Edited by WiryAiluropodine on Nov 14th 2022 at 10:50:55 AM

Rhapsody Since: Jun, 2014
#1486: Nov 15th 2022 at 3:38:45 AM

Is it contradictory for a character to considered both Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse (aka basically the in-universe version of that trope)? Since the latter trope would typically indicate that the creator didn't intend the character to be sympathetic, which obviously defeats the purpose of the first trope.

I noticed this situation for a character recently and was thinking that I should probably remove the UU example in this case.

Edited by Rhapsody on Nov 15th 2022 at 10:44:29 PM

SoyValdo7 I mainly fix indentation issues from La tierra de lagos y volcanes Since: Sep, 2022 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
I mainly fix indentation issues
#1487: Nov 15th 2022 at 10:18:56 AM

[up][up] I agree, if the problem is lampshades then is not unintentional.

[up] That depends on the situation. One author can, for example, try to deconstructed Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse and make the lack of empathy for the villain's Troubled past their main motivation to destroy the world. But still, many people find the villain unsympathetic for many reasons (They are annoying or whine too much).

Edited by SoyValdo7 on Nov 15th 2022 at 6:01:19 AM

Valdo
Rhapsody Since: Jun, 2014
#1488: Nov 15th 2022 at 7:26:22 PM

[up] Thanks for the insight, it helped me understand better.

I don't think the example I saw still fits both of these tropes since both entries pretty much say the same thing ("asshole character's tragic backstory does not justify their asshole actions") and the fans are unsympathetic for similar reasons to the characters In-Universe, so I'll consider removing the UU entry at some point then. (For reference it's this character and this series' YMMV page — on a side note, I should remove the other UU entry too since the author also made that intentional.)

SoyValdo7 I mainly fix indentation issues from La tierra de lagos y volcanes Since: Sep, 2022 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
I mainly fix indentation issues
#1489: Nov 15th 2022 at 8:02:41 PM

[up] I think that would be fine. Also, that part in the UU example that say "fans are quick to remind others" is... very weird, I don't know. It feels like is try to insinuate that the fandom likes to dunk too much on poor Jiang Cheng.

Valdo
WhirlRX Since: Jan, 2015
#1490: Nov 16th 2022 at 9:01:28 AM

For The Office (US) Unintentionally Unsympathetic

  • Pam during the Michael Scott's Paper Company arc. Audience are suppose to feel bad for her because she decided to quit her secured job to follow Michael in his attempt to start his own paper company and that she feels disrespected by him and Ryan when they start treating her like a secretary again. However, Pam is well aware of Michael's personality and that there was no way he be able to pull off making a successful company. Even when she blames herself for her situation, she compares it to a mother giving her child the keys to the car, it phrase in a way that it is entirely Michael's fault.

Edited by WhirlRX on Nov 16th 2022 at 12:01:40 PM

Cornholio4 Since: Feb, 2016
#1491: Nov 16th 2022 at 2:38:18 PM

Chloé Bourgeois. Word of God is adamant that she's Beyond Redemption, but a number of fans think differently, pointing to the various times she was capable of being nicer in the show (even if they never stuck) as proof. As such, her sudden Face–Heel Turn in the season 3 finale (followed by the aforementioned statement by Astruc) was considered highly jarring to these fans, since a number of her actions beforehand seemed to point towards her getting a redemption.

I don’t agree with this at all since she actually had very few pet the dog moments and actually hypocritically and cruelly told another victim of an Akuma that once a villain always a villain despite the fact that she herself was Akumatized more times than the poor girl at that point. She went in a spiteful selfish tirade after being banned from being queen bee for her own safety and never once apologised or admit to being wrong about intentionally trying to cause a train to crash so she can play hero and failed badly; plus never got any true consequences for that

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1492: Nov 16th 2022 at 2:58:46 PM

You don't have to agree for it to still be valid. Many fans were outraged at Thomas for declaring Chloe "irredeemable", especially because she was being set up for a redemption arc and had the potential for greater development and sympathy. Because enough people find her sympathetic despite her actions and the intent of her character, she's Unintentionally Sympathetic.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
SoyValdo7 I mainly fix indentation issues from La tierra de lagos y volcanes Since: Sep, 2022 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
I mainly fix indentation issues
#1493: Nov 16th 2022 at 3:00:31 PM

Unintentionally Sympathetic is based on the Audience Reactions, so the fact that Chloe's actions are terrible or not is irrelevant. That being said, I think this example need a rewritten, so it can focus more on the reasons why Chloe is so sympathetic to some viewers. Right now, it reads as "Fans want Chloe redeem, Thomas Astruc doesn't agree, so he makes her a villain. Fans aren't happy."

Edited by SoyValdo7 on Nov 16th 2022 at 5:27:34 AM

Valdo
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#1494: Nov 16th 2022 at 3:59:02 PM

Thirded. I get YMMV tropes can be misused, however, you still don't have to agree with them personally. Plus, a few Pet the Dog moments are still a few Pet the Dog moments.

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#1495: Nov 17th 2022 at 11:58:13 AM

[up]x5 Re: The Office, that seems like a cut. As written, it's clearly intentional on the part of the writers, that Pam's decision does bring her problems she could have foreseen. Plus, it ignores the reasons why Pam left her job-that she felt, and was, unappreciated and underused. Pam essentially trades one set of problems for another, which is how leaving your job works. Quitting is often done in a moment of extreme emotion and it is very frequently followed by remorse.

As things turn out, Pam making that choice is almost 100% a win for her. Michael does succeed, insofar as he gets his job back, Pam stops being an underappreciated receptionist and becomes a salesperson. So, we're supposed to understand that her quitting to join Michael was kind of a stupid decision but it also makes sense for her character.

The Michael Scott Paper Company arc is one of the clearest moments on the show where Michael gets a big win (the meeting between Pam, Michael, Ryan v Charles and David is a highlight for Michael where he gets basically everything he wants), so bringing up Michael's Manchild tendencies in this entry is rather a poor example.

AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#1496: Nov 20th 2022 at 10:50:04 PM

  • X-Men: Apocalypse: It's a mild case, but Pietro wanting to meet his biological father Magneto and form a relationship with him. Whilst wanting to know about one's absent biological parent and perhaps even meet them is very much understandable; what's not understandable is that Pietro still wants to bond with his birth-father, when he already knows full well that said father is an infamous terrorist-on-the-run whom Pietro personally saw on international television attempting to assassinate the heart of U.S. government while espousing disturbing eugenic revolution-ideology. In-Universe, it's like an average guy wanting to meet his long-lost uncle Hitler. The film does slightly address this when Pietro somewhat trepidly asks Raven if his birth-father is as bad as his reputation, but it's not enough in light of what this entry has already described.

From https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UnintentionallyUnsympathetic/LiveActionFilms.

I dont know if the example is Kosher but what is not kosher is to Compare a Holocaust Survivor with Hitler.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1497: Nov 20th 2022 at 10:52:52 PM

I think someone actually does tell Magneto he's "worse than Hitler" at one point (at which Linkara responded by pointing out the Holocaust survivor thing). My point is that it's a comparison the comics themselves have made, and so while the comparison is a little icky, it's also not entirely baseless (or at least, not entirely made up by whoever wrote the example).

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Mattman_the_Storyteller Since: Aug, 2018
#1498: Nov 25th 2022 at 8:27:37 AM

Would this be a good suggestion for Unintentionally Unsympathetic?

  • Ninjago: Harumi lost her parents in the Great Devourer's attack on Ninjago, and the Ninja's failure to stop such a tragedy, Lloyd freeing the Serpentine that would free the Great Devourer, Garmadon being the one to kill the Devourer directly, and the Emperor and the Empress of Ninjago's strict upbringing all lead to her descent into evil. The story tries to paint her as a Tragic Villain who's still sympathetic and not beyond redemption, as shown when she goes out of her way to prevent the same tragedy she suffered from happening to another family, as well as paint her as someone who has genuinely fallen in love with Lloyd. The problem is that Harumi still committed so many atrocities without remorse, having her adopted parents and Hutchins killed even though they tried their best to raise her and were at worst oblivious, raised Garmadon from the dead as a being of evil (something he never wanted to be), and cruelly toyed with Lloyd's feelings for her while rubbing it in his face about the Ninja's apparent deaths and how Garmadon no longer loves him. She had shown no earlier consideration for the fact that Garmadon's tyrannical rule would rob children of their families, which makes her attempt to redeem herself come off as forced. And even that's negated when the Overlord resurrects her as his herald and she continues to be evil, only choosing to turn on him when the Overlord reveals that he corrupted the Great Devourer and indirectly caused her parents' deaths. This makes her redemption come off as less deserved and more unwarranted, and her relationship with Lloyd still comes off as toxic considering that she still tried to kill him throughout the season while mocking him for seeing the good in others.

Edited by Mattman_the_Storyteller on Nov 27th 2022 at 11:01:59 AM

AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#1499: Dec 2nd 2022 at 2:49:12 PM

  • Louis, the fat kid from the Freakazoid! mini-segment "Fatman and Boy Blubber." You see him get bullied for his fatness and the bullies try to steal his sweet bun, only for the titular characters to come to the rescue and beat up the bullies. However, after a long, winding pseudo-inspirational lecture, Fatman reveals that the problem isn't the bullies, but Louis' decisions, like being fat (despite that Fatman and Boy Blubber obviously) and always eating fattening sweet buns instead of sensible meals. This prompts them to try to confiscate the sweet bun to prevent Louis from attracting more bullies, but he refuses. This forces them to fight fire with fire, or in this case fight bullying by (unintentionally) bullying. This makes you wish Louis would just hand over the sweet bun, or see Fatman and Boy Blubber teach him a lesson despite how cruel it is. He really is a regular Wonka kid, don't you think?

I want to tear this one apart and answer "No I dont" in the edit reason. But I dont want to get banned so I brought it here instead. This seems to think being fat makes Bullying A-OK and the victim is being whiny.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#1500: Dec 2nd 2022 at 2:53:31 PM

[up] If your analysis is accurate, the entry does seem kind of cruel. Haven’t seen the episode though so I can’t say—as is, I’d cut.

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