The criteria for Unintentionally Unsympathetic says:
"When a character's supposed insecurities or embarrassing quirks are supposed to inspire sympathy, but fail to impress the audience because they're mishandled or plain written badly. It can be made even worse if they have to learn a lesson. Without being at least somewhat invested in the characters, the audience might have passed the point of caring when the character finally comes around."
This is the basic criteria of the trope. There is more after but I am not sure what was present from the start and what was edited in afterwords to expand the definition. This trope is becoming more popular, with the page starting to be split-off into sub pages and such. And like all popular YMMV tropes this is causing an influx of bad examples that are probably just one-sided complaining, shoehorning, and bashing which is not in the spirit of this wiki. You can see this is causing issues just by looking at the pages discussion thread. I felt that the trope needed a dedicated cleanup thread. This way edits can be done without causing edit wars and getting people banned.
Some guidelines if a character or event is Unintentionally Unsympathetic.
1. It has to be unintentional on the authors part. It is in the title. All examples that were intentional on the author's part are disqualified by definition.
2. The example should state exactly why the author or narrative intended the subject to have been sympathetic and why it failed to resonate with the audience. If the example can not clearly state these two points, it is a bad example and needs to at minimum be rewritten.
3. Neutral tone: No insults. I know it is fun to complain about stuff but complaining is not in the spirit of the wiki. So long as one side isn't promoting hate speech examples should be written without taking a side. Examples that are heavily favoring one side or insulting the other side are probably not valid examples.
4. There should be a wide accepted disagreement between the audience and the author to be a valid example. By that I mean that there should be large consensus in the audience disagreeing with the author over why the character is unsympathetic instead of sympathetic. If the audience is too divided and one section thinks agrees with the author and the other doesn't, the example could be a pet peeve of a single person, which isn’t noteworthy.
Lastly, always consider Square Peg, Round Trope and be mindful if the example may fit better under a different trope such as Base-Breaking Character, Broken Base, and The Scrappy. Please visit other cleanup threads if you have questions about tropes that do not involve Unintentionally Unsympathetic.
Feel free to help if you spot some bad examples or can point out more rules for the trope. Or argue with me over the definitions, this is a cleanup thread after all.
MOD NOTICE: As of October 26, 2022, this thread now covers Unintentionally Sympathetic as well.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 26th 2022 at 8:15:48 AM
I don't think that's an example. Don't even the sympathetic villains end up having to pay in the end after they die?
Also the person who re-added it is Edit War ing so id report that on Ask The Tropers.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Wait, are you saying the entry itself isn't an example of Unintentionally Unsympathetic, or my argument of the demons going to hell isn't an example of how the demons aren't shown to be victims? Also from what I saw they only re-added it one time, so should I still report it to Ask the Tropers? Sorry it's just I've never had to do that before and want to be sure.
I meant the entry isn't an example. As these characters are still meant to be in the wrong and punished in the end
Also yes add, delete and read like here is an Edit War. So I would report it
Edited by miraculous on Feb 6th 2022 at 12:57:47 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."This feels like yet another piece of evidence for my hypothesis that the UU/US tropes, conceptually speaking, really do not have a good grasp on what 'sympathy' consists of in fiction. I've become familiar with this series, and Tanjiro's empathy towards most demons seems clearly meant to say more about him than them.
I think these tropes as is need a rework. They seem to as pointed out trying to define something that's not quite as clearcut as it seems.
They also kinda don't acknowledge that a character could have both symphaethic and unsymphaethic traits and they're supposed to be both there at the same time.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 6th 2022 at 3:41:39 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I think you're correct it's misplaced
I also agree that these tropes seem off. A lot of them seem to assume that every character in a series is either 100% sympathetic or 100% unsympathetic, and every situation has a very clear right and wrong in the narrative, which doesn't really work even with most preschooler shows. (also, a lot of the entries just feel like Ron the Death Eater /Draco in Leather Pants entries but the fandom presumption is in the right)
HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIATo be fair, there are definitely shows that rely on Black-and-White Morality, or even Black-and-Grey Morality / White-and-Grey Morality. And even when it doesn't, it can be easy to tell from context that a character's meant to be sympathetic.
I think UU works often when it's like, a sort of Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse issue with the fandom. The narrative explains the character in a way that makes them appear to be more sympathetic or even morally grey, if not straight up heroic, but the fandom doesn't find it to be a plausible enough explanation for their behavior.
I could maybe see value in a broader Ambiguous Sympathy YMMV item for when audiences disagree on whether a character is meant to be sympathetic in a certain scenario, but I could also see that becoming a nightmare to maintain in itself.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.Honestly, I've kind of gotten that vibe too some of the time.
Certainly I don't think I've ever seen a US/UU entry that gave off the vibe of someone documenting a common opinion they didn't themselves agree with. Which isn't that atypical for YMMV entries, but still, kinda telling.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15194292110A03429900&page=47#comment-1151
"This entry had actually been removed by another user who gave an explanation but the same user who wrote it re-added it while giving no explanation."
That user who wrote it didn't just re-add it but they also slightly altered it. They've added Tamayo and Yushiro as examples and added the clause of demons being able to resist once they've come to their senses which shows that they did take some time to consider my explanation for removing it. I still see some issues with it though that I planned to address at some point.
Edited by Nehz on Feb 7th 2022 at 9:05:38 PM
I've brought this up to Ask The Tropers just now. That's my mistake, I should've looked more closely at the entries before bringing it up.
Nah a small addition like that is still an Edit War. When something is removed it has to be discussed. You can't just reput it back with a small change.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."- Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Luke requiring Grogu to detach from Din before continuing his training prompted some viewers to call him a hypocrite, considering his attachments to his family and Han Solo helped overthrow the Empire. It also comes off as him not learning from the mistakes of the Jedi and how their detatched way of living led many to fall to the dark side, which Luke in the Legends continuity rejected. Viewers also saw Luke as negligent when instead of personally returning Grogu to Din, he sticks Grogu in an unmanned X-Wing, and orders R2 to fly him back to Tatooine.
This fails to explain why Luke was supposed to be sympathetic, especially since we know by the Sequel Trilogy his failings will have dire consequences. Cut?
On that Dragon Prince example that was talked about, how does the example read as Ron the Death Eater? That trope is about the unfair demonization of characters in the fandom. How does that example do that? All it does is talk about things they actually did in canon. Where's the Demonization there? How are they being exaggerated into monsters? I'm gonna quote what someone said regarding this since it's point is pretty spot on.
If you ask me of the two tropes Unintentionally Unsympathetic sounds like it's more applicable. It talked about how it's supposed to be a gray and gray morality thing where no side is truly right or wrong but of the two the Elves look less sympathetic due to their actions coming off as severe and the humans look like they're given the shaft. Now I'm not saying it's definitively applies, but of the two Ron The Deather Eater looks less applicable.
Hey so I've thought about bringing up the entries for My Hero Academia since a lot of them feel like acknowledged cases similarly to what I brought up with Demon Slayer, but before doing all of them I'll just start with this one since it has a lot of the same problems the other entries.
- Part of the reason Bakugo is a Base-Breaking Character outside of Japan lies with this. From the moment we first meet him as a child, he's picking on Midoriya simply because he can, and then when he meet him when he's grown up more, he's still a huge jerk who threatens Midoriya and even tells him to commit suicide because Midoriya dared to try and get into U.A. alongside him. From there, Bakugo is an aggressive Jerkass who threatens and yells at people for petty reasons while acting as if the world owes him everything. Thus, whenever the series tries to make him look sympathetic, a number of fans get critical of the writing because he has never earned people's sympathy or trust to warrant being portrayed as sympathetic. It doesn't help that the series keeps trying to push the idea that Midoriya and Bakugo are friends and rivals, when Bakugo has yet to even consider acting better towards Midoriya, the most improvement he has being that he grows to respect Midoriya's power more. Many of Bakugo's detractors often argue that if the story actually addressed Bakugo's bully behavior and used it to develop more, he'd be likable, but point out that Bakugo's character development seems to be just him learning how to make friends.
This one hasn't actually aged well, as of chapter 284, a flashback shows that Bakugo shows genuine regret for bullying Midoriya throughout their childhood, and in chapter 322 he apologizes for how he's treated him. But just to check, does the fact that this came late into the manga have any effect here? Since his apology came about 200 chapters after his sympathetic traits were revealed? Or does that not matter? If it does, then a few of the other entries may have some credibility to them as well.
Edited by GenericGuy2000 on Feb 14th 2022 at 5:27:00 AM
I’m gonna put some Gloom in your eye.Well, each entry is ideally constructed with all the relevant and available information of the time. If it was only released 200 chapters after the first, my guess is there's no way whoever wrote the entry could have known.
As to the entry itself, a few possibilities exist: 1. This was always the plan, and the original editor just didn't know. In which case, it's just a misunderstanding, so cut. 2. The later bits where Bakugo shows remorse are a direct response to fan backlash trying to address it, though why they would wait this long for that is not clear. Maybe move it up to AST. 3. Maybe this comes down to Values Dissonance about whether or not a character can come back from several chapters of being a Jerkass and particularly a Suicide Dare. Because personally, I do think anyone who does that needs to really demonstrate remorse if the work intends to portray them as just a person with baggage and not a horrible irredeemable sort.
Well regarding the Suicide Dare, I've seen on this Wiki that apparently Horikoshi describes that scene as an Old Shame, as it made Bakugo come off as more toxic than he intended. At the same time I also discovered an interview in late 2019 where Horikoshi talks about Bakugo's characterization and that he actually had intended for him to come across as horrible and was surprised how popular he had become. Although he does admit that it was around his fight with Midoriya after the Provisional License Arc that he decided that he would start trying to make Bakugo more sympathetic, but he also acknowledges that Bakugo still eventually needed to apologiza to Midoriya.
Here's the link (it's an english tranlation on Twitter): https://twitter.com/aitaikimochi/status/1204977073166544898?s=19
If he still counts for the Suicide Dare, then the entry itself should at least be rewritten to cover current information.
Edited by GenericGuy2000 on Feb 14th 2022 at 3:49:09 PM
I’m gonna put some Gloom in your eye.Any thoughts on the above? Do you still think Bakugo counts?
Anyone else? Just want at least a couple more votes of approval.
Edited by GenericGuy2000 on Feb 16th 2022 at 9:17:42 AM
I’m gonna put some Gloom in your eye.Bakugo is extremely divisive among fans, but it's covered well as he's a Base-Breaking Character and has an entry that explains it. It's outdated and I could see it go.
Honestly whoever wants to pick through the Todoroki family tree on that same page is welcome to... it's a mess that lists everyone from Enji to Touya, all of which take "Character does anything unsympathetic" in what's meant to be a nuanced conflict as proof that they're Unintentionally Unsympathetic.
I thought you'd never ask! I'll probably cut Bakugo later, but after assessing these entries, and maybe the rest of the entries later on.
- The entire Todoroki family bar Shoto has gotten their time in this:
- How some fans view Rei Todoroki. While there's no excusing what Endeavor did to her, there's also no excusing her taking her frustrations out on her five-year-old son, with some even saying that her action makes her worse than Endeavor. It doesn't help that her taking out said frustrations on Shoto was basically the first thing revealed about her, giving her a hell of an uphill slope to climb into being likable, despite it later being revealed that she'd tried to protect Shoto from Endeavor. And with her largely divorced from the plot, there are few chances for her to demonstrate her redeeming qualities.
- After Endeavor started getting a redemption arc, it was not well received by many fans. At that point, he has been a neglectful parent to most his children and abusive in every level towards Shoto and has nothing but his competence as a hero to have gained a redemption arc. Many feel like Horikoshi expects fans to forgive him easily after an entire arc dedicated to how despicable and awful of a human being he was to his family. The attempt at a heartwarming scene of him stating that he wants to become a hero Shoto can be proud of fell on deaf ears when compared to everything he has done. Many fans went on to state that, if he is not arrested by what he has done, then it's the same as nothing for them.
- Fuyumi, in the aftermath of Endeavor's battle against Hood. She tries to get the family together for a conversation and make Natsuo and Shoto interact with him and maybe put the family back together. When Natsuo blows up at Endeavor, calling him out on the fact that he is the cause for the weak bond between siblings, he knows next to nothing about Shoto and mentions a strange event related to Toya, Fuyumi sides with Endeavor and tells Natsuo to calm down, being disappointed at him for leaving. While some fans understand her desire to rebuild her family, some also think that she is glossing over Endeavor's abuse and neglect of her siblings and expect them to forgive Endeavor easily so she can get the family she wants, while disregarding her brothers' feelings. The situation aggravates later when she gives Shoto's contact information to his former abuser without his consent.
- The long absent eldest brother, Toya, gets this too. His need to impress his father and show him that he can continue his legacy—a legacy that's been pushed on him ever since he started training— after Enji gives up on him is a legitimately tragic thing, but Toya lashing out at his family for it, up to and including attempting to harm his newborn brother, lost him some sympathy. His stubborn refusal to give up Endeavor's dream when both parents asked him to take alternative paths, coupled with the fact that he became the mass murdering Dabi in adulthood, lost him more sympathizers.
- Even Natsuo has gotten his share of detractors. While he has every reason to not want to forgive Endeavor for his failings as a father, some fans saw fault in him because Natsuo specifically got the least amount of negative attention compared to Shoto (who was groomed to be the heir), Toya (who suffered neglect and "died"), and Fuyumi (who tried to protect Natsuo from the worst of it and had to watch the family get broken apart). His tendency to bring up his hatred for Endeavor, especially how it's worded in certain translations, also makes some fans see him as someone holding a childish grudge.
- The entire Todoroki family bar Shoto has gotten their time in this:
- Rei Todoroki: I've actually brought this entry up before on this thread, but it didn't get much response. For one, the claim that Rei was "taking out her frustration" when burning Shoto's eye is factually incorrect. It was the result of the mental breakdown caused by Endeavor's abuse, and a later flashback showed that she instantly regretted it. Before I was a little unsure if she could still count as Shoto solely blames Endeavor for the incident, but now that I caught up to the manga, I feel more confident in saying she doesn't count, because in chapters 302-303 she a.) says that Shoto has every right to resent her for the incident and b.) doesn't hesitate in admitting that she caused Shoto's burn scar when Hawks asks about it, which Shoto reacts to, but doesn't argue against.
- Enji Todoroki/Endeavor: While this is a bit of a hot button topic I'm walking into, ultimately, I believe Endeavor is narratively treated as a bad person who is trying to atone. His terrible actions are not at all mitigated by him trying to seek atonement. Neither Natsuo nor Shoto are treated as in the wrong for not wanting to forgive him. The only one who's insisting on forgiving Endeavor, Fuyumi, admits in chapter 302 that she just wanted to fix up the family to keep up appearances. When Endeavor confesses the things he's done to his family to the world after the War Arc, the people watching are shown to be genuinely horrified and turns against him. It doesn't at all seem unintentional. The only thing is that it's worth keeping an eye on how this character arc ends with the series wrapping up soon, but as of right now I think Endeavor's terrible actions seem wholly acknowledged, and therefore, not unintentional.
- Fuyumi Todoroki: As mentioned above, Fuyumi admits that her trying to force Shoto and Natsuo into being a family again with Enji was just a desperate attempt to keep up appearances. So it doesn't seem to be unintentional.
Fuyumi: I knew our family was broken, but I was too scared to interfere. All I could do was try to fix things just to keep up appearances.
- Touya Todoroki/Dabi: The only way I could see Touya counting as U.U. is if the author tried to make it seem he was justified in attacking baby Shoto or becoming a mass murderer. Which he obviously isn't. He's still treated as a murderous psychopath who needs to be taken down, regardless of his tragic backstory. His actions as a child are displayed in a horrifying light as well. Though, like Endeavor, with the manga reaching it's conclusion, we should probably keep an eye on this one as well.
- Natsuo Todoroki: This one just feels weird. The statement that he suffered the least of his siblings makes it sound like it he has no right to complain about Endeavor, which feels like Unfortunate Implications. His older brother who he loved supposedly died because of Endeavor's horrible parenting. Isn't that enough of a reason to hold a grudge against him? It doesn't help that the entry doesn't mention any specific lines he says that sound like a petty grudge.
I'll await feedback before touching the entries on the actual page.
I’m gonna put some Gloom in your eye.

So this is an entry on the YMMV.Demon Slayer Kimetsu No Yaiba page.
This entry had actually been removed by another user who gave an explanation but the same user who wrote it re-added it while giving no explanation.
For one the bit about demons having moral agency in their murderous actions. The series itself acknowledges this, as when Tanjiro defeats Kyogai, he says he can't forgive him for killing humans. Also, the demons, even the sympathetic ones, aren't at all meant to be portrayed solely as victims as quite a few are literally shown going to hell for their crimes after being defeated. Hell, Hantengu, the demon who constantly tries to pass himself off as a victim, is one of the few demons that Tanjiro is shown feeling nothing but contempt for.
Edited by GenericGuy2000 on Feb 6th 2022 at 5:02:39 AM
I’m gonna put some Gloom in your eye.