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Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

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The criteria for Unintentionally Unsympathetic says:

"When a character's supposed insecurities or embarrassing quirks are supposed to inspire sympathy, but fail to impress the audience because they're mishandled or plain written badly. It can be made even worse if they have to learn a lesson. Without being at least somewhat invested in the characters, the audience might have passed the point of caring when the character finally comes around."

This is the basic criteria of the trope. There is more after but I am not sure what was present from the start and what was edited in afterwords to expand the definition. This trope is becoming more popular, with the page starting to be split-off into sub pages and such. And like all popular YMMV tropes this is causing an influx of bad examples that are probably just one-sided complaining, shoehorning, and bashing which is not in the spirit of this wiki. You can see this is causing issues just by looking at the pages discussion thread. I felt that the trope needed a dedicated cleanup thread. This way edits can be done without causing edit wars and getting people banned.

Some guidelines if a character or event is Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

1. It has to be unintentional on the authors part. It is in the title. All examples that were intentional on the author's part are disqualified by definition.

2. The example should state exactly why the author or narrative intended the subject to have been sympathetic and why it failed to resonate with the audience. If the example can not clearly state these two points, it is a bad example and needs to at minimum be rewritten.

3. Neutral tone: No insults. I know it is fun to complain about stuff but complaining is not in the spirit of the wiki. So long as one side isn't promoting hate speech examples should be written without taking a side. Examples that are heavily favoring one side or insulting the other side are probably not valid examples.

4. There should be a wide accepted disagreement between the audience and the author to be a valid example. By that I mean that there should be large consensus in the audience disagreeing with the author over why the character is unsympathetic instead of sympathetic. If the audience is too divided and one section thinks agrees with the author and the other doesn't, the example could be a pet peeve of a single person, which isn’t noteworthy.

Lastly, always consider Square Peg, Round Trope and be mindful if the example may fit better under a different trope such as Base-Breaking Character, Broken Base, and The Scrappy. Please visit other cleanup threads if you have questions about tropes that do not involve Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

Feel free to help if you spot some bad examples or can point out more rules for the trope. Or argue with me over the definitions, this is a cleanup thread after all.

MOD NOTICE: As of October 26, 2022, this thread now covers Unintentionally Sympathetic as well.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 26th 2022 at 8:15:48 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#801: Feb 25th 2021 at 5:20:18 PM

The "inherently sexist" bit seems unnecessary to me. Other then that it seems fine, if a little long in my opinion.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 25th 2021 at 7:21:03 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
LaptopGuy Since: Dec, 2012
#802: Feb 26th 2021 at 1:10:05 AM

OK thanks. If someone can help me edit it down that’d be appreciated. The much bigger problem right now is the colossal entry I made for Dawn at Unintentionally Sympathetic. That definitely needs a rewrite.

  • On Kirby Buckets, a lot of viewers feel this way about the title character's older sister Dawn. She's meant to be written as a foil who is jealous of Kirby's growing popularity as an animator and has been trying to antagonize him since then, often by pulling pranks on him. Unfortunately, she spends every episode of the show being humiliated and ridiculed not just by her brother but by everyone else on the show, and is more often than not The Un-Favorite between her two parents. Even in her solo stories she almost always comes out on the losing end, not doing anything to deserve it. As the series went on, Kirby often was just as bad towards Dawn as she was towards him, the only difference being that Kirby would get away with it while Dawn would be punished. Over the course of the series, Dawn was rejected in a singing competition in favor of a toilet, became Yes, Dawn may be a jerk, but after everything that’s happened to her in the series it’s easy to see things from her point of view. A few notable episodes include:
    • "Killer Puppies", when Dawn was trying to expose Kirby as a liar who was faking a deadly disease. When she finally gets him cornered, the school nurse instead covers for him. Yet somehow, the audience was supposed to root for Kirby.
    • In "Get a Grip", Kirby breaks his hand and is unable to draw. Dawn suddenly starts experiencing a stroke of good luck. After Kirby learns to draw with his left hand, it all vanishes and she is humiliated as usual.
    • "Failure to Launch" starts off with Dawn clearly in the wrong, as she deletes all of Kirby's web cartoons. Then Kirby retaliates by posting an embarrassing old video of her dancing with her mother. They tried to make a compromise, with their father acting as a mediator as neither of them trusted the other to hold up their end of the bargain. By mistake, he deletes the cartoons and uploads the video of Dawn. Dawn is willing to work with Kirby to reclaim their videos from the local cloud storage office. Kirby was able to retrieve his cartoons, but Dawn was not able to stop her video from going online. Many felt the ending was unfair, since she didn't do anything to deserve the punishment that Kirby wasn't guilty of as well.
    • "The Gil in My Life" has Dawn discovering that her terrible singing voice becomes amazing when she sings in front of a toilet. She auditions for a commercial, and the judges decide to pick the toilet over her, saying it could help an actual singer.
    • "Kirby Sells Out" ends with Big Ricky sexually harassing her.
    • "Twinsies" did start off with Dawn locking Kirby and his new friend Bucky in the school basement, but the punishment she got was being chased by a bunch of swamp boys. Many were outraged and felt that sexual harassment is not an appropriate punishment regardless.
    • In "Say Uncle", Dawn saved Principal Mitchell's life with the Heimlich manuever, but he mistakenly believed a dog was his savior. Dawn was able to prove she was the one who saved him, and she finally was given the credit she deserved, right? Wrong. [The crowd booed her, saying they wanted a dog to be the hero, and Mitchell outright stated he would rather have choked to death than be saved by Dawn.
    • In "Tunnel Babies", it is revealed that Dawn rescued Kirby from a dark tunnel when the two were little kids, and said that Kirby should look up to her as his hero. The episode was presumably intended to be like "Driving Miss Angelica" in that Dawn only cared about getting Kirby to be fully subservient to her. Instead, Kirby was ungrateful and horrified, and tried to make her hate him again (similar to "Frenemy Mine"). He tried to stage a rescue but accidentally put her into a coma. The only way to revive her was to insult her on her hospital bed.

It seems like a character analysis I’d put on Deviantart rather than a TV Tropes entry.

Edited by LaptopGuy on Feb 26th 2021 at 4:12:56 AM

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#803: Feb 26th 2021 at 10:12:59 AM

You can remove the "notable episodes" section. The summary does its job well enough. You also seem to have cut out a chunk of a sentence ("Over the course of the series, Dawn was rejected in a singing competition in favor of a toilet, became Yes, Dawn may be a jerk...")

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#804: Feb 26th 2021 at 10:32:42 AM

Btw someone added this to live action films. It's so Damn long and mentions every single action the character does in a weird manner...

  • Wanda Maximoff and her twin brother Pietro Maximoff from Avengers: Age of Ultron are a big example of this, all thanks to a rushed Heel–Face Turn, Adaptational Backstory Change and Adaptational Jerkass on Wanda's part. It's revealed by Pietro, their Freudian Excuse is that a motar shell from Stark Industries landed on their home killing their parents, this alone justifies their anger but it's immediately offset by the fact the twins willingly volunteer for HYDRA to become living weapons for the sake of revenge. Further worsening matters is that during their conflict with the Avengers Wanda Mind Rapes Tony inspiring him to create Ultron who kills her brother and causes mass destruction which is partly her fault. The twins don't improve after leaving Hydra either since they join Ultron, and Wanda Mind Rapes the rest of the Avengers (sans Hawkeye) and causes Hulk to go on rampage attacking a city full of innocent civilians like a green missile which to audience makes the Maximoff twins look quite hypocritical and dampens their heel turn to good and ultimately turns Wanda into a Karma Houdini when she's Easily Forgiven and becomes a Avenger by the end. In Captain America: Civil War Wanda's attitude doesn't changed too much since after accidently destroying a building in Lagos and forced to stay in the Avengers base, she attacks her future husband Vision who just wants to protect her and calls out Tony for keeping her homebound even though in the weight of her crimes it's an extremely merciful slap on the wrist. It also seeps into main conflict as Cap flips out at Tony when the former learns about Wanda's confinement and refuses to sign the Accords and Wanda getting arrested and put in a straight jacket is treated as a What the Hell, Hero? moment for Tony, but Wanda out of all of Cap's side does actually deserve jail time so feeling sympathy for her is difficult. She does become more likable in Avengers: Infinity War due to Vision's influence and not being a Conflict Ball for once. At least until WandaVision where Wanda willingly keeps the truth from Vision about his death in order to keep up her idyllic fantasy and lashes out at anyone who tries to change the situation and threatens Monica Rambeau one of the few people willingly to bat for her. Although granted Director Hayward and S.W.O.R.D aren't making anything easier, having pulled apart Vision's body during the three years while Wanda was dusted by Thanos.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
LaptopGuy Since: Dec, 2012
#805: Feb 26th 2021 at 10:41:49 AM

  • On Kirby Buckets, a lot of viewers feel this way about the title character's older sister Dawn. She's meant to be written as a foil who is jealous of Kirby's growing popularity as an animator and has been trying to antagonize him since then, often by pulling pranks on him. Unfortunately, she spends every episode of the show being humiliated and ridiculed not just by her brother but by everyone else on the show, and is more often than not The Unfavorite between her two parents. Even in her solo stories she almost always comes out on the losing end, not doing anything to deserve it. As the series went on, Kirby often was just as bad towards Dawn as she was towards him, the only difference being that Kirby would get away with it while Dawn would be punished. Yes, Dawn may be a jerk, but after everything that’s happened to her in the series it’s easy to see things from her point of view.

There we go. Any other issues with my summary people want to bring up?

Unoriginalusername3 from Nimmermeer Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#806: Feb 26th 2021 at 11:43:48 AM

[up][up]

The entry might have a point, since their are some people who find Wanda unsympathetic, but the entry has quite a lot of problems and sounds really rambly.

  1. Their hatred against Stark is misplaced, but understandable. He did create the weapons that killed their parents.
  2. You can't really hold Wanda responsible for the Lagos incident. She tried to contain the bomb, but her powers were simply not strong enough. The only one responsible is Crossbones.
  3. Joining Ultron really isn't that bad. All they knew was that Ultron wanted to destroy Stark and create a better world. When they found out his real plan, they turned against him.
  4. The entry leaves out the reason Pietro died: him making a Heroic Sacrifice to save a child.
  5. The attacking Vision thing was just restraining him, so that she could escape the compound where she was being held against her will.

The points about Hydra, the Hulk rampage and maybe Westview are fair though.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#807: Feb 26th 2021 at 11:50:04 AM

It's a really weird entry that outright lies about stuff and then goes with the worst possible interpretation. I'm tempted to cut the whole thing.

We can't talk about westview since we agreed not to put anything until the show is over.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
LaptopGuy Since: Dec, 2012
#808: Feb 26th 2021 at 1:18:40 PM

I was wondering, is Max Thunderman a good example for this trope? He has the exact same character dynamic going for him that Dawn has. Colossal (no pun intended) Jerkass, yet is treated so horribly by everyone else on the show you start to feel really bad for him, and think "of course he feels so much resentment towards everyone else"!

And, I'd say Phoebe would count on the Unintentionally Unsympathetic side?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#809: Feb 26th 2021 at 1:30:22 PM

Oh, The Thundermans, now this is something I know a thing or two about.

I'm not sure Max is meant to be unsympathetic most of the time, tbh. He's a dork whose most evil actions are done off-screen, and in the Christmas Episode it's obvious that he not only has a heart and a conscience, but that if everyone else in his family were evil, he'd be outclassed by all of them. He's a teenager who wants to rebel and be a big bad evil supervillain, but he's not necessarily unsympathetic- then again, maybe I'm forgetting some details.

Phoebe though...I'm not sure about her.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#810: Feb 26th 2021 at 1:35:25 PM

[up][up]I don't know the show and you didn't give much context, so IDK.

You know you don't have to effort post the examples here. If you're confident that they're an example, and you think other fans would agree with you, you can add them yourself.

EDIT: Ninja'd, luckily there's more fan input now.

Edited by mightymewtron on Feb 26th 2021 at 4:36:07 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#811: Feb 26th 2021 at 1:46:20 PM

On the new Superman and Lois page, somebody added this

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Since the pilot episode tries to be as unconnected to the greater Arrowverse as possible, it places the cast of Supergirl (2015) in this light. It seems incredibly out of character for Kara, her sister Alex, her foster mother Eliza, as well as Clark's old friends J'onn J'onzz and Jimmy Olsen, to not attend Ma Kent's funeral or even get in contact with Clark. This might possibly extend to the casts of Arrow, The Flash (2014), and Legends of Tomorrow depending on how close Clark was with them Post-Crisis.

I....think this is a pretty big shoehorn. It's basically conflating Superman Stays Out of Gotham and Real life filming scheduling issues of related shows with the plot.

Edited by Forenperser on Feb 26th 2021 at 11:34:11 AM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
WhirlRX Since: Jan, 2015
#812: Feb 26th 2021 at 2:05:49 PM

[up]Yeah. That really isn't an example.

LaptopGuy Since: Dec, 2012
#813: Feb 26th 2021 at 3:03:45 PM

So yeah, Max definitely fits under Jerkass Woobie, even if Unintentionally Sympathetic may be less clear of a trope for him. Since I doubt anyone on the forum knows Kirby Buckets as well as I do, finding people to back me up or provide a counterargument is much harder. That's what happens when Disney XD gets like 1/10 the viewers Nickelodeon gets.

I've seen both shows and I like Kirby Buckets a lot more, but both Max and Dawn are my favorite characters on their respective shows; Phoebe and Kirby often both come off as sanctimonious to me. Jerkass Woobies just really seem to really resonate with me.

Anyway, I have one other character I want to bring up.

  • Alan Diaz from Mighty Med is a Jerkass with a visceral hatred of "normos" like Kaz and Oliver. But he is also a sympathetic character as he grew up not knowing his own father, is treated like crap by the staff of Mighty Med hospital, including his own uncle Horace, and is often the Butt-Monkey on the show. And many fans agree he has a right to be angry that two amateur "normo" doctors leapfrogged a superpowered boy who spent years working hard and preparing to be Horace's natural successor. Luckily, this is not lost on Skylar, who, while not immune to looking down on him, often emphasizes with Alan's problems and tries to talk others into being more respectful of him.

Unlike the others, Alan isn't my favorite character on his show (he doesn't have "the look" that I like in Max or Dawn), though I too emphasize with him often. I'm not sure if anyone can comment on this: I doubt Mighty Med as well known as The Thundermans, though I'm sure it's less obscure than Kirby Buckets.

Edited by LaptopGuy on Feb 26th 2021 at 6:04:09 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#814: Feb 28th 2021 at 6:32:42 PM

A bit late to say this but I don't think WandaVision will be a problem anymore as the newest episode revealed something about Hayward that made pretty much the entire audience lose all sympathy for him.

WhirlRX Since: Jan, 2015
#815: Feb 28th 2021 at 7:04:26 PM

[up]Who would of thought waiting until things clear up would make a difference.

LaptopGuy Since: Dec, 2012
#816: Feb 28th 2021 at 9:35:51 PM

I have a few examples:

  • SpongeBob SquarePants: Does Mr. Krabs count as an Unintentionally Unsympathetic character, or is he generally supposed to be hated?
    • In Just One Bite, Squidward is supposed to be the "bad guy" because he doesn't want to eat a Krabby Patty. But SpongeBob is constantly pestering him to have one. Does SpongeBob come off as unlikable to anyone?
    • Bubble Buddy, are we supposed to side with SpongeBob or the mob? On one hand, SpongeBob is being a big nuisance to Bubble Buddy, but the mob wants to "pop the bubble".
  • Diary of a Wimpy Kid: In the first book, when Rowley decides he doesn't want to be friends with Greg anymore, is the audience supposed to sympathize with Rowley? Because I do.
  • The Fairly OddParents!:
    • In Just the Two of Us!, does Timmy come off as selfish when he wishes everyone else away so he could have Trixie to himself?
    • You Doo; Timmy is torturing other people with voodoo dolls. Is he supposed to be in the wrong here?

Edited by LaptopGuy on Feb 28th 2021 at 12:50:30 PM

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#817: Feb 28th 2021 at 11:04:54 PM

  • Krabs is meant to be a jerk in most episodes in which people complain about him, such as "Born Again Krabs." Even in something like "One Coarse Meal," his behavior's not so much played for sympathy as it is for laughs.
    • I think Squidward is meant to be the jerk in "Just One Bite," since it's the classic I Do Not Like Green Eggs and Ham shtick and his attitude is disproven as soon as he tries something. I could see an argument for SpongeBob acting way too pushy and being unsympathetic, though I'm not sure how many people agree with this opinion.
    • SpongeBob is the sympathetic one in "Bubble Buddy" due to how genuine his connection to Bubble Buddy is depicted. While I could see an argument for his behavior coming across as selfish, especially since it gets at least one of the fish killed, this is kind of mitigated by the reveal that Bubble Buddy is sentient, so some of these situations may be his fault, not SpongeBob's.
  • I'm pretty sure Greg is always meant to be a selfish jerk, but the amount of sympathy we're supposed to feel for him varies from moment to moment. Greg kind of throwing Rowley under the bus for something he did isn't meant to be seen as a sympathetic act, while the worst thing Rowley did was claim that he came up with the entire "Zoo Wee Mama" idea (and even then, Greg let him take over the comic when they were developing it). So I'd argue Rowley's meant to be the sympathetic one in this case, getting in trouble for something he didn't do.
  • Fairly OddParents:
    • Given that Timmy is effectively punished for getting rid of everybody else in the world so he could have Trixie for himself, I don't think that was meant to be sympathetic behavior. Plus, Timmy's generally intentionally written as selfish for the sake of comedy.
    • The whole episode shows that Yoo Doo dolls are bad, especially when Timmy almost gets killed because of what happens to the Yoo Doo doll of him. Obviously we're not supposed to side with Timmy using them.

Edited by mightymewtron on Feb 28th 2021 at 2:08:23 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#818: Mar 1st 2021 at 10:25:36 AM

[up][up][up]In regards to WandaVision, I think Monica will still be a candidate for Unintentionally Unsympathetic, but yeah, Hayward shouldn't be a problem anymore.

Oissu!
LaptopGuy Since: Dec, 2012
#819: Mar 1st 2021 at 10:43:58 AM

So, anyway, back to Kirby Buckets. I'm going to have to go in-depth on some individual episodes so people who've never seen the show can understand what's going on here.

So, today, I'm going to look at the Season 1 episode "Get a Grip!" Kirby does a science fair project with his friends Fish and Eli, where the three do a mid-air high-five after jumping off a trampoline. Unfortunately, Kirby breaks his hand and has to wear a cast. Because of this, Kirby is unable to draw, and he is forced to act out his characters because he has no way to express his creativity.

Meanwhile, Dawn feels like she's always been treated poorly by the universe in comparison to Kirby (the episode started with her complaining that they were eating pancakes for breakfast instead of Dawn's preferred waffles). However, after Kirby's accident, she starts to have a series of good luck: in all of a minute, her English test, which she didn't study for, was pushed back, someone actually shot a good photo of her at school, and coins started flowing from the vending machine when she made an order.

Kirby is pretty miserable, unfortunately, as his characters continue taking over him. He acts crazy whenever they're serving tacos for lunch, scrunches his face up when he gets angry, and has an urge to butt-dance whenever funky music comes on. One night, the family plays Pictionary, and Dawn's team is crushing Kirby's as she is suddenly able to draw. Kirby, seeing Dawn's drawing of an alien, gets enraged and destroys the living room. By that time, Dawn has realized that her good luck is directly correlated with Kirby's misery.

In the climax, Dawn is invited on a date with the lead singer of her favorite boy band, and suddenly becomes very popular in school. Because of this, she ignores her best friend Belinda and makes some new friends (also calling them "Belinda", by the way). Belinda, who wants Dawn to pay attention to her, decides to teach Kirby to draw with his left hand while Dawn is on her date. Kirby successfully draws all his characters with his left hand and Dawn's date goes downhill fast, ending when she throws up on the boy band star.

So there you have it. Here are my questions: 1. Do you feel happy that Kirby learned to draw again? 2. Does Belinda come off as a jerk here? She seems to only care about Dawn paying attention to her than her happiness. 3. Is the ending supposed to be Laser-Guided Karma for Dawn or does it make the audience feel sorry for her instead? 4. Does Kirby come off as dickish for only caring about himself and not the fact that Dawn is miserable again?

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#820: Mar 1st 2021 at 10:47:49 AM

See, I'm not a regular fan of this show, I've never seen an episode, so I can't tell you if previous episodes have established enough context for me to care about these people. So naturally I don't care that Kirby learned to draw again as I'm not a fan. But from the context you give me, I feel bad for Kirby and I think Dawn sounds selfish for ignoring her friend. (Wanting your friend to give you basic respect is not really acting like a jerk.) Frankly, getting pancakes instead of waffles sounds like First-World Problems to me. But given this is a "luck reversal" episodenote , it doesn't really provide an accurate depiction of their typical lives on its own. So it's hard to say.

[down] Again, I can't say how I feel about the ending because I not only don't watch the show, but I'm not watching the ending firsthand. But I think if she was acting selfish and rude, it makes sense for her to get punished by the narrative for it.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 1st 2021 at 1:59:07 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
LaptopGuy Since: Dec, 2012
#821: Mar 1st 2021 at 10:57:33 AM

OK, then it looks like you reacted exactly the way the writers wanted you to.

But the ending with Dawn's date getting ruined...Laser-Guided Karma, or does it make you feel bad for her afterwards?

LaptopGuy Since: Dec, 2012
#822: Mar 1st 2021 at 11:05:07 AM

I'll admit I have quite a crush on Olivia Stuck, so I may be too biased in favor of her character to judge the show neutrally.

Anyways, you’re probably right. I was mostly focused on her relationship with Kirby and completely overlooked her treatment of Belinda.

Edited by LaptopGuy on Mar 1st 2021 at 2:25:49 PM

MisterApes-a-lot Since: Mar, 2018
#823: Mar 1st 2021 at 4:11:29 PM

This entry under Wonder Woman 1984:

  • Barbara's coworkers. We're supposed to believe she's a shy mouse who's below everyone's notice, but from what we see of her, she's academically brilliant, socially charming, and kind-hearted. Meanwhile, what we see of them suggests that the only reason she has trouble making friends in the office is because she works with a bunch of assholes. Notably, her boss apparently forgot who she was within a day of meeting her the first time and treated the second as if it were the first, and Barbara only stood out once she made a wish to do so, which said a lot more about how her boss didn't care about her enough to remember her, rather than Barbara not doing enough to stand out.

It doesn't say how the coworkers are supposed to be sympathetic, and I wouldn't be surprised if the characters are meant to be seen as rude. Cut?

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#824: Mar 1st 2021 at 5:22:12 PM

Yeah, cut that. They're not really significant characters (I can't recall if they actually got any names) and Barbara is meant to be the more sympathetic character during those early scenes.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#825: Mar 1st 2021 at 5:22:20 PM

[up][up]Cut as fails to explain how they're supposed to be sympathetic. This sounds more like Informed Flaw for Barbra.

YMMV.The Night The Magic Died

  • Unintentionally Sympathetic: Celestia is intended to come off as unreasonable and in the wrong for trying to lock up Nahmat and distrusting her...but up until then Nahmat has done absolutely nothing to disprove the story they've been told about her being a villain, and has in fact enforced it with her actions, making many see her as in the right and being wrongfully browbeaten by someone who only has herself to blame for not being trusted.
  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Nahmat is meant to be the protagonist and ultimately in the right, especially in regards to her chewing out Celestia...but she has done nothing to disprove the story the heroes were told or earn their trust, and due to her abuse of her psychic powers, Celestia is absolutely right to doubt she gave Shining Armor and Cadence an ability instead of just brainwashing them. It makes her "The Reason You Suck" Speech come off as her throwing a tantrum and chewing someone out to divert from her own mistakes.

I removed the UU entry as Nahmat did own up to and apologize for that near the end which argues against it being unintentional (which would also invalidate the US entry in retrospect). It was since added back without explanation. It also seems redundant with these:

  • Designated Hero: Nahmat. The only heroic thing she really does for the first part of the story is go after Gralo, otherwise she just acts like a self-righteous jerk, Mind Rape someone with little provocation (which she outright refuses to apologize for even after realizing it was wrong), used mind magic on several guards who weren't actually hurting her, and blames Celestia for how mistrusted she was (despite Gralo having done a much better job looking trustworthy than her). She did most of Gralo's work for him. She gets better in the final act at least.
    • According to Word of God, she was actually worse in the original, unpublished fanfiction version of the story; instead of admitting her mistakes, she basically had a smug "I told you so" attitude and showed no remorse for her own actions. This may be why the fanfiction version was never published.
  • Informed Wrongness: Celestia is supposedly in the wrong for not believing Nahmat...when Nahmat does absolutely nothing to actually justify trusting her, and is at least guilty of assault for what she did to Fluttershy. If anything Nahmat's lucky Celestia gave her the leeway she did after how Nahmat behaved.

Is UU a supertrope to DH only to be used if the latter doesn't apply. Is it even possible to be a DH without being UU?

The author admitted Nahmat owning up to her mistakes was an after the fact fix, so at least one of them applies. Is there any reason to list UU and DH, or US and IW, or is it redundant complaining to list both?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Mar 1st 2021 at 5:22:39 AM


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