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I've not played the game, but I just happened to come across this one on UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Video Games:
Now, there's a good point about her not being particularly sympathetic, but I'm not really seeing why players are expected to agree with her, especially considering what the rest of the description says. Anyone who's played the game wants to clarify?
YMMV.Until Dawn has two examples:
This one I am more familiar with, and my impression is that both of those are meant to be more morally ambiguous than the examples claim. That is, it's not an unintentional aspect of it. The latter is more clear cut to me, since the example presents both sides of it, and in each case pretends we're supposed to take the opposite extreme option.
The first one is a bit more ambiguous, but I think that's the point. There's a whole lot of tragegy in it, and compared to the actual intent, I don't think this is supposed to be a case of no sympathy.
The second Until Dawn example is a definite cut. If you're listing both sides, it's likely they were both meant to be sympathetic.
His being listed as a Hate Sink and Complete Monster is a big strike against it being unintentional. This entry predates the distinction between Hate Sink and Scrappy. Cut?
It doesn't sound like he's supposed to be sympathetic. Cut.
This was cut before. At least, I feel it can be trimmed if this is a valid example. Thoughts?
I'm very leery of that. It pretty much reads like because his soul wasn't condemned for all eternity, he got off light and is therefore supposed to be an entirely sympathetic character. Granted, I'm not familiar with that plot and it may just be clumsy writing, but as it stands it pretty much seems like someone isn't satisfied by how much a character is punished. The example doesn't mention how sympathetic he's supposedly characterised as, and instead just lists a few things he's done and some of his mental state. Based on that, I don't see how he comes off as significantly more or less sympathetic than he's supposed to.
Cut. A lot of fans find Count Bleck to be sympathetic and it just comes off as someone complaining about him not receiving as harsh as a punishment as they would have liked.
From UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Gravity Falls:
I think these were added by the subject of this cleanup.
Ford and Stan, they call each other out on these points Ford's argues with itself, and Stan self-aware such it's played for laughs. Ford gets some All There in the Manual explanation for his hostility, so there might be a point there. This sounds like intentional moral grayness as opposed to anything unintentional. Blendin seems legit, but said All There in the Manual source stats he's trapped in the past, which may or may not be considered karma. Thoughts?
Yeah, Blendin seems possibly legit. The other two, no. Even from that biased mess I can see that they're not meant to be morally white or black. With so many counterpoints to both of them, and most of it relating to each other, it's hard to take that example as anything but complaining.
I'd keep blendin personally and cut the rest as there's intentional moral ambiguity with the others.
Does Gravity Falls even deserve it's own page now? I intend to condense it to three bullets, too few to warrant It's own page in my experience.
I think the page can be cut, especially since you'll be condensing the examples!
"then had the audacity to only call Stan back into his life because he needed a favor-almost 13 years later."
That's kinda downplaying the fact that said "favor" is about saving the world. Granted Ford could have been nicer but that not like he asked money for selfish reasons.
Per above recommendations, I've cut-listed Gravity Falls page and move the valid, updated example to the appropriate places. Anything else?
Found this on Re:Zero: Subaru is hated even by many fans of the series, considering him an overly stupid, silly schoolboy who makes mistakes even in those moments, where another common person has remained in place. Moreover, even when Subaru begins to win, he does it not because of his analytical abilities, but only because he knows the enemy's actions in advance.
Does this sound like complaining?
Also worth noting these entries that may clash with the above example:
The Base Breaking entry is far too long to be valid. Even if it was it should be trimmed down. To me, its complaining.
So guys I kind of want to cut this page Here. It is for a fanfic, which is already a concern because usually the only people who write fanfic trope pages are one or two people total but the tone of the rest pages is very negative. It is clear that the person who created the trope page is biased toward the work in a negative way, and boy, do they let it show. There is just as much bashing of the author as the work itself. It reminds me of the Sonichu page back in the day. I'll submit it to the negativity thread soon. But to be on the safe side I'll link the page to get a thumbs up or down should it be cut-listed.
Edited by DocJamore on Sep 18th 2018 at 1:39:29 PM
Just letting you know that I brushed up on the example for Mabel for now! Anyone else can check it out too: I rephrased it, but it ended up being a bit longer since I put more focus on what happened in Gravity Falls: Lost Legends—if it seems out of place, I guess someone can trim it down.
Found this under Arthur.YMMV
"DW, in "Arthur's Big Hit" and in a few others. Even in the episodes where she has some justifiable reason for being bratty, she tends to take it so far that it's impossible to sympathize with her. This is not made better by all the times she doesn't have an excuse, and just felt like being irritating - it makes her seem less like she's acting up because of the issue at hand and more like her already-horrible behavior is just being exacerbated by said issue. A number of viewers also cheered when Arthur punched D.W. for harassing him and then trashing his model plane in the aforementioned Arthur's Big Hit, because in addition to being her usual annoying self she was stupid enough to think the model was a toy that could fly."
While DW is indeed The Scrappy amongst older, longtime fans of the show as in the Periphery Demographic, she's actually pretty popular with the younger fans and this kinda seems a bit like complaining.
Also found this during my sweep of the Ace Attorney pages.
Dee Vasquez in the third case. Yes, her killing of Jack Hammer was only a Crime of Self-Defense, and she's also heavily implied to have cared deeply for previously killed actor Manuel. However, Hammer only attacked her because she'd been Blackmailing him for most-likely-accidentally causing Manuel's death, and she's also a ruthless Mafia Princess known to "silence" people — almost including Phoenix and Maya themselves, no less. Many players can't help but wish Hammer had actually succeeded in ridding the world of her.
By extension, Jack Hammer is a little hard to feel sympathy for. While he had suffered immensely under Vasquez's blackmail over what, by all accounts, was simply a horrific accident, and while he's clearly meant to be portrayed as a Sympathetic Attempted Murderer pushed to his breaking point as a result, his attempt to frame Will Powers for the murder over nothing but him getting to play the hero and getting endless adoration from the kids while he was saddled with playing the villain tips him firmly into Asshole Victim category for a lot of players.
And this from Justice for All.
While he's very popular with others, some fans didn't like how much Acro was being played as a Sympathetic Murderer. For example, Video Games Awesome! and their commenters noted that while he didn't mean to kill the ringmaster, he did intend to kill the ringmaster's daughter. The sympathy is supposed to come from regretting he killed the ringmaster, who he saw as a father, and yet he was still willing to murder that man's only child. To be fair, she was still directly responsible for accidentally putting Bat into a coma and then not understanding how serious it was, but Acro apparently never considered just yelling at her and making her see reality the way Moe later did, and instead jumped right to an elaborate murder attempt... which didn't even work because she was too clueless to understand she was being threatened. It's quite telling that the 3DS re-release changed some of the dialogue to tone down the forced sympathy, one of the most obvious changes being Edgeworth's line "Do me a favor and try not to be too harsh on Acro" being changed to "As for Mr. Acro's case, you need not worry," which is closer to the Japanese script.
Edited by Klavice on Sep 18th 2018 at 9:00:46 AM
DW should be cut if it's only the Periphery Demographic that doesn't sympathize with her. As for the Ace Attorney examples: remove Dee Vasquez since I doubt she was intended to be sympathetic since she is never treated that way within the game IIRC. Also, remove Acro since the entry mentions he's popular and it uses the Weasel Words, "some fans didn't like".
Edited by ADrago on Sep 18th 2018 at 12:42:57 PM
I've seen Arthur's Big Hit and I think DW qualifies.
DW is the first I've heard of Unintentionally Unsympathetic needing to apply to the target audience. That would leave a lot of examples suspect, Including the Friendship is Failure ones.
YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 5 E 19 Crusaders Of The Lost Mark:
This episode gave her a uncontested improvement in popularity. So does it count or just a nitpick covered by Base-Breaking Character?
YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 8 E 26 School Raze Part 2:
Should this point be condensed to one trope or the other?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Sep 19th 2018 at 6:59:59 AM
How in the hell would the heroes be unsympathetic for sending someone who almost doomed their world worse than Tirek and refused to redeem themselves?
Definitely cut both as Cozy was given the chance to redeem herself and chose not to. If anything the only hypocritical one would be Discord and even he wasn't as bad as she was.
The issue is why do something as drastic as sending them to Tartarus as opposed to a normal correctional facility, notify Cozy's family about this (if they didn't mind, that would explain a lot), or figure out why she became so messed up? I've seen this come up enough it's a legit example of something, if not those tropes what?
And it "dooming the world worse" is shown how?
I think the issue here is people are sympathizing with her because she's really young and an Enfant Terrible. For example, if the Big Bad of Ace Attorney 3 was like... 10 when she committed her first crime, then I would probably see more people saying she didn't deserve the death penalty.
Cozy is very similar to Pokey/Porky Minch as despite her young age she's a little bit sociopathic. The only reason people defend her is because they've damned a child to hell. But remember monstrous kids in fiction do exist (Henry from The Good Son to name one). I think they thought she was past the point a correctional facility would do any good.
I'd say in that case, keep Unintentionally Sympathetic but axe the Unsympathetic as they had to make it so Cozy wouldn't plot with Tirek as a pen pal again and have magic disappear. She even also almost killed all of the young six who are implied to be teens at the oldest by dropping them from the clouds through her magic draining. The fact that she shows no remorse for any of this also contributes to why I don't see the Mane Six, Celestia, Neighsay, Luna, etc as unsympathetic.
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