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Looks fine by me.
The Legend of Korra: Turf Wars:
I think we should wait until the story end in case it addresses this, as the second point suggest some awareness.
The last one I think definitely should be cut since it doesn't suggest they were supposed to be sympathetic. Can a "extremely minor" example count, since that's a Downplayed Trope any YMMV can't be played with?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jul 9th 2018 at 6:01:18 AM
I wrote the second entry, but am fine with its deletion. At the very least this needs to be editted to be less ranty. Some statements make no sense (habit of Doylism?)
I think I remember a previous Franchise Original Sin entry for that franchise being brought up and cut for (among other things) complete misuse of Watsonian versus Doylist. Bet you anything that this is the same editor at work.
Unless anyone argues for keeping within three days, I'd cut it. Objections?
As I mentioned in the "Is this an example" topic, Unintentionally Unsympathetic requires that the author be making an attempt to have the audience sympathize with a character due to emotional distress, trauma, or other typically Woobifying trait, and that this attempt fall flat or backfire.
The Korra examples shown above establish that people don't find certain actions to be sympathetic in a general sense, but there is no indication that the author is trying to tug our heartstrings about them, and thus they fail the first requirement of the audience reaction.
Edit: This may stem from a root confusion about the application of "sympathetic". Audiences in general are supposed to root for protagonists, and part of this comes from establishing sympathy for them. When the audience loses sympathy for the character, such as when they commit an unheroic or stupid act, that's certainly a thing, but that's not this trope. As I said above, the form of "sympathetic" meant by the trope is the active attempt to create sympathy or concern by playing on trauma or distress.
Edited by Fighteer on Jul 10th 2018 at 11:02:26 AM
Naruto as a franchise gets a lot of hate on this wiki, and the entry here seems pretty bad.
It starts with some pretty bad complaining and gets worse from there. Some of these are outright wrong- Obito's not supposed to be sympathetic right after he's revealed as a villain, complete with Kakashi giving him a "Reason You Suck" Speech for turning heel. The "coolest guy" comment came after he changed sides again and died by Taking the Bullet for Team 7. Madara's not a well intentioned extremist; he's a guy who gave up on the world, and Naruto thinks he's a loser for it. Several of these are just complaining about characters caring about Sasuke. And I'm sure there's more I'm missing.
All of that does look pretty bad and it is basically all ranting. Feel free to cut most of it out or change it to being more neutral. I'll repeat what I said in the opening post. To qualify for being US:
1. It must be unintentional on the author's part. If the author planned for the reaction than the example is not legitimate. I'd even say that even if meant for it to be ambiguous and it is "your choice to choose" that is enough to disqualify an example since we are not getting a narrative forced upon us in those cases.
2. No ranting or complaining over the author, the characters, or at other real life people. Examples should be written from an unbiased viewpoint.
3. The example should be a big enough issue to cause a notable rift between the author and the audience. Like the Broken Base trope, it is all to easy for an editor to pass off their own opinion as a notable event worth recording. This is a trope about fan-bases not another way to do a Dethroning Moment of Suck.
Edited by DocJamore on Jul 23rd 2018 at 11:51:17 AM
YMMV.Jurassic World Fallen Kingdom
This fails to explain why it's unintentional and the protagonists struggling with that decisions shows it was intentionally morally grey. And it admits the consequences are arguable (are their enough dinosaurs to make a valid breeding population?). Thoughts?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jul 25th 2018 at 11:29:19 AM
That doesn't seem like a valid example as it fails to explain why it's unintentional. Cut.
This example from YMMV/RWBY:
To note: the issue with the RWBY example is that there is a question mark over whether or not the creators were attempting to make her behaviour sympathetic in the first place, given that her storyline was that her best friend (Blake) was trying to save her from a dark path before she crossed one too many lines and her back story was used in-universe as morality chain to snap her back to her senses, and not to make people sympathise with what she was doing (in short, her back story was being used to show her parents would never have approved of the things she was now doing in their name).
In-universe, Blake easily forgives her, which upsets the police chief who thinks she's getting off scot-free. Cue An Aesop about the power of forgiveness. The problem for the fandom is that a lot of fans agree with the police chief and the question is, how to trope that. I'm wondering if, instead of Unintentionally Unsympathetic, this might be a Broken Aesop example: where part of the fanbase feels like the aesop is Karma Houdini instead of the power of forgiveness. The problem is that this feels like it should be YMMV rather than an objective trope.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 28th 2018 at 2:11:20 PM
Kind of. She was initially treated as an anti-villain (since she believed she was doing the right thing), but after her Heel–Face Turn, we're supposed to stand by Blake's side, not the police chief, and accept Ilia. The problem is that for many her action were too extreme and a simple "I'm good now" isn't enough to make her Heel–Face Turn feel genuine. Also her backstory has never been shown (and this fact is objectively true) which makes harder to understand her
Also, remember that YMMV is about how a part of the fandom feels, even if you don't belong to it (like me, and I think you too, in this entry), therefore it's highly subjective
At worst, maybe it's the Police chief who's viewed as Unintentionally Sympathetic (since many apparently agreed with him)
Edited by fishysaur on Jul 28th 2018 at 7:26:27 AM
Yes, but my concern has nothing to do with the validity of how fans feel. If you notice, I'm trying to find the correct trope to document it, not silence the fans who feel this way. The issue is whether the creators intended to make her sympathetic prior to her Heel–Face Turn, which isn't subjective; while we're certainly expected to take Blake's side throughout, Blake herself considers Ilia's behaviour unacceptable, which is why creator intention is a valid concern.
I agree with the Unintentionally Sympathetic assessment. Perhaps that's the way to trope this? Forget about the attempt to apply Unintentionally Unsympathetic to Ilia (which falls foul of creator intention issues) and instead trope the police chief as Unintentionally Sympathetic, given that's exactly what the response was of the fans that don't like the ease of the Heel–Face Turn. It's also easier to show that the creators wanted us to side with Blake against the police chief because they go out of their way to have Ghira step in to deliver the aesop which silences him.
Edited to add: Actually, would it be Strawman Has a Point rather than Unintentionally Sympathetic? The police chief exists to get an aesop about forgiveness thrown at him, but some of the fandom feels he had the better point. There isn't really a role here for making the police chief more sympathetic, but for siding with him against the creator-intended message.
What do you think?
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 28th 2018 at 4:29:14 PM
If Blake found Ilia's actions unacceptable, she wouldn't have accepted her
Yes, maybe Unintetional Sympathetic for the police chief is best way to explain it (althtough no one exactly said "I'm with police guard here")
I'm not sure there's a strawman there. Someone who's supposed to be wrong isn't necessarily a strawman. Someone who's supposed to be wrong and is presented as some cardboard scarecrow is a strawman. If the character supposed to be wrong is meant to have a fair point, then it's not a strawman, and I think that's the case here.
I also don't think you absolutely have to agree with Blake either, or that that's the only option the creators assume of the audience. We've seen characters been wrong before, Blake in particular. She's not exactly a moral guidance character.
Edited by AnotherDuck on Jul 28th 2018 at 6:10:14 PM
Forgiveness doesn't mean accepting prior behaviour, it means feeling that the appropriate reaction is to forgive instead of punish.
Fair enough on the strawman point. I don't tend to use the trope, so I'm never quite sure when it should be used.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 28th 2018 at 4:36:40 PM
I think Unintentionally Sympathetic fits; he isn't meant to be a Straw Man, especially because he appears just quickly because... reasons
Edited by fishysaur on Jul 28th 2018 at 9:49:05 AM
I don't think it fits either. I got the impression that it was a decision by Blake that was supposed to be one that was hard to accept. Whether you agreed wasn't the point; the point was that she took a decision that reflects her opinion of it. If you were supposed to just accept it because it was "the right choice", then it would reflect the overall morality, not Blake's own opinion. It's the best choice for her, but not necessarily something we're supposed to agree with.
I think there's often a mistaken belief that just because a main character does something, we're automatically supposed to agree. But quite frequently, the ambiguity is the point. Probably more obvious when it's more highlighted and done by clearly morally ambiguous characters, such as in The Last of Us (which I'm not going to detail because spoilers, but it's probably obvious to anyone who knows about it).
Look, do as you prefer, it's not even something that widespread, so it's not a big deal; but in this series there's nothing ambiguous, and Blake's forgiveness of Ilia is clearly supposed to be appreciated, not that either you like it or don't
Edited by fishysaur on Jul 28th 2018 at 2:26:33 AM
My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic S8 E14 "A Matter of Principals":
Some makes it look weak and it doesn't explain why she's supposed to be sympathetic despite this.
Some of those things sound like deliberate (narratively speaking) mistakes, rather than things we're supposed to root for.
I've removed it since Some = Weasel Words and it doesn't explain why she's supposed to be sympathetic. She might count if it were rewritten to reflect this, but until then...
YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 8 E 17 The End In Friend:
Fails too explain why Twilights supposed to be sympathetic, and Rainbow Dash and Rarity agree to volunteer for the lessen. Cut?
Cut. It doesn't explain why she's meant to be sympathetic.
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