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I'd still say the stuff around Abby still holds imo. The overall point that most people seem to have around Abby is that the game's attempts in the second half to make her more sympathetic is inherently tainted by the brutal method of her killing of Joel, meaning that any future efforts by the game to get them to understand her and potentially sympathize with her are tainted by the fact that she starts the game by beating a man to death who just saved her life while forcing his surrogate daughter to watch. Fourth Wall Myopia imo doesn't really factor in because this is a horrifying and sadistic thing to do to anybody. This combined with stuff cited under Broken Aesop together are what makes her come off as UU to players.
I'll probably rewatch "Wonderbolts Academy" to reacess the character's actions before writing the Moral Dissonance and What an Idiot! entries for them.
Also noticed on the episode's YMMV page that Lightning Dust is listed as a Draco in Leather Pants, which contradicts the Unintentionally Sympathetic entry she has on that page. Would it be better to nix the Draco entry in favor of Unintentionally Sympathetic?
Edited by PlasmaPower on Jun 21st 2020 at 1:30:02 PM
So does anyone want to follow up on my post from the last page?
Are you saying if Abby killed them in a less over the top brutal way they'd be meaningly less this trope? She's supposed to be unsympathetic for that reason at the time. How does that objectively negate the reasoning behind her redemption? Did Ellie not do nor intend to do anything as brutal in her own quest for revenge? Did Abby not show meaningful loss after losing her friends/loved ones that was supposed to be karma?
Unintentionally Sympathetic is not incompatible with Draco in Leather Pants as it is what causes the DILP, which is when they take it past what is reasonable form the US.
I'd say cut as the entry fails to explain why Jeff was supposed to be unsympathetic in this case.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jun 21st 2020 at 10:24:17 AM
It's a subjective trope (Hence why it is being used in YMMV). The argument being made is that many players still failed to sympathize with Abby during said redemption arc specifically because she's committed such a heinous act as our introduction to her. Them intending for her to be unsympathetic at that stage simply results in players unintentionally still finding her unsympathetic later on in the game. It simply becomes worse when compounded by the fact that there is a narrative double standard for the arc of both characters.
That's just how I feel on the matter, feel free to revise it if you think it needs to be done.
Edited by Mightymoose101 on Jun 22nd 2020 at 5:52:31 AM
I'm not denying she is, I just think it need an objective reason why what was supposed to make them sympathetic didn't work narratively. I'll try to come up with an entry for her tomorrow.
Thoughts on the other examples I brought up?
I'm fine with removing the other examples. I think the complaints about Jerry are potentially valid but we're already bloating the page with examples of UU so adding yet another one is just devolving in to complaining.
YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 9 E 21 Daring Doubt
Daring Do seems correct as despite the episode presenting her as doing horrible things, she still comes off better than Caballeron and Ahuizotal, who have tried to ruin and kill her respectively, without seeming like they could be reasoned with. The things she did such as ruining ancient sites (which wasnít even intentional) and hoarding treasure wasnít even that bad.
Rainbow Dash seems to fall more into Informed Wrongness than anything.
Ahuizotal seems correct, no comment here.
Not sure about the Fluttershy entry I written.
I also remember there was an entry for Caballeron a while ago, but I deleted that because it complained about him being a Karma Houdini rather than how he is unsympathetic. Suprised someone hasnít rewritten it yet.
Who are you talking to? If youíve asked me before then I donít remember you asking something like that.
Edited by PlasmaPower on Jun 23rd 2020 at 8:44:17 AM
Again, I just need to ask what these analyses are being based on. Are you basing it on how fans feel- or how you think the fans should feel based on the source material? Because again, this is an audience reaction. It doesn't matter how objectively good or bad the character is portrayed as in the work, it matters if the audience finds reasons to sympathize with / not sympathize with them despite that intent.
I'm feeling like these posts keep swinging back around to somewhere that isn't UU or US.
I wrote the "2, 4, 6 , Greaaaat" first entry for Rainbow Dash and I can tell you... Opinions on her in said seem very shall we say, split down the middle? The ending is generally liked, but several people have said Rainbow was a jerk for no reason... while just as many said she had a reason to be. It's a very wonky episode regardless and kind of sticks out especially since Rainbow being all happy that she sent someone away crying seems very OOC for RD at least for that stage in her development.
Edited by Klavice on Jun 27th 2020 at 9:53:41 AM
Found this on DuckTales (2017) S3 E7 "The Rumble for Ragnarok!":
I feel like that's intentional. Just the fact that Dewey realizes the problem and fixes it points to that.
There's a theme I've noticed that whenever the protagonist is the unsympathetic one, somebody assumes that it must be unintentional. Anyone else notice it, or is it just the fact that I happen to end up on the pages with that type of thing more frequently?
No, it's definitely a thing. I think it's a mixture of "but the work doesn't condemn this enough" whining, and just plain inability to acknowledge that works can present the protagonist as being in the wrong.
The Last of Us Part II
Abby sounds like trying to sneak in a Base-Breaking Character entry early as written. Manny sounds like it was from a deliberately biased perspective and something minor compare to the other evildoings in the game. Tommy fails to explain how it's unintentional and given it causes the bitter parts of the ending seems intentional. Thoughts?
Proposed rework for Abby:
Should I add a disclaimer saying not to edit this without forum approval given all the controversy this game is causing?
Update: fixed some typos.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jul 1st 2020 at 6:52:53 AM
Thought about the Manny and Tommy examples?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jun 30th 2020 at 12:17:44 PM
I don't have anything nice to say about TLOU 2 especially with people eagerly claiming it has video gaming's first Female protagonist. (Which is obviously wrong.) But I think you made the right calls. I agree Tommy doesn't show why he's meant to be symlathized with.
I agree with your assessments. Cut away!
I... Did they even play TLOUI? Wait scratch that, have they even seen a video game in general???
I...there are no words.
I think we can safely say those people are just trolling.
You'd be surprised how far people will stretch to further their own agenda.
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