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Mightymoose101 mightymoose101 from Rlyeh
mightymoose101
Jun 21st 2020 at 8:54:37 PM

I'd still say the stuff around Abby still holds imo. The overall point that most people seem to have around Abby is that the game's attempts in the second half to make her more sympathetic is inherently tainted by the brutal method of her killing of Joel, meaning that any future efforts by the game to get them to understand her and potentially sympathize with her are tainted by the fact that she starts the game by beating a man to death who just saved her life while forcing his surrogate daughter to watch. Fourth Wall Myopia imo doesn't really factor in because this is a horrifying and sadistic thing to do to anybody. This combined with stuff cited under Broken Aesop together are what makes her come off as UU to players.

PlasmaPower Rappy Fever! Relationship Status: In love with love
Rappy Fever!
Jun 21st 2020 at 9:29:41 PM

I'll probably rewatch "Wonderbolts Academy" to reacess the character's actions before writing the Moral Dissonance and What an Idiot! entries for them.

Also noticed on the episode's YMMV page that Lightning Dust is listed as a Draco in Leather Pants, which contradicts the Unintentionally Sympathetic entry she has on that page. Would it be better to nix the Draco entry in favor of Unintentionally Sympathetic?

Edited by PlasmaPower on Jun 21st 2020 at 1:30:02 PM

jjjj2 Abed is Batman now. from Greendale
Abed is Batman now.
Jun 21st 2020 at 9:49:15 PM

So does anyone want to follow up on my post from the last page?

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Jun 21st 2020 at 10:07:59 PM

[up][up][up]Are you saying if Abby killed them in a less over the top brutal way they'd be meaningly less this trope? She's supposed to be unsympathetic for that reason at the time. How does that objectively negate the reasoning behind her redemption? Did Ellie not do nor intend to do anything as brutal in her own quest for revenge? Did Abby not show meaningful loss after losing her friends/loved ones that was supposed to be karma?

[up][up]Unintentionally Sympathetic is not incompatible with Draco in Leather Pants as it is what causes the DILP, which is when they take it past what is reasonable form the US.

[up]I'd say cut as the entry fails to explain why Jeff was supposed to be unsympathetic in this case.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jun 21st 2020 at 10:24:17 AM

Mightymoose101 mightymoose101 from Rlyeh
mightymoose101
Jun 21st 2020 at 10:46:59 PM

It's a subjective trope (Hence why it is being used in YMMV). The argument being made is that many players still failed to sympathize with Abby during said redemption arc specifically because she's committed such a heinous act as our introduction to her. Them intending for her to be unsympathetic at that stage simply results in players unintentionally still finding her unsympathetic later on in the game. It simply becomes worse when compounded by the fact that there is a narrative double standard for the arc of both characters.

That's just how I feel on the matter, feel free to revise it if you think it needs to be done.

Edited by Mightymoose101 on Jun 22nd 2020 at 5:52:31 AM

Jun 22nd 2020 at 12:33:32 AM

[up]I'm not denying she is, I just think it need an objective reason why what was supposed to make them sympathetic didn't work narratively. I'll try to come up with an entry for her tomorrow.

Thoughts on the other examples I brought up?

Mightymoose101 mightymoose101 from Rlyeh
mightymoose101
Jun 22nd 2020 at 5:07:34 AM

I'm fine with removing the other examples. I think the complaints about Jerry are potentially valid but we're already bloating the page with examples of UU so adding yet another one is just devolving in to complaining.

PlasmaPower Rappy Fever! Relationship Status: In love with love
Rappy Fever!
Jun 23rd 2020 at 4:34:47 PM

YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 9 E 21 Daring Doubt

  • Unintentionally Sympathetic:
    • Daring Do. Both Dr. Caballeron and Ahuizotl point out how her apparent "good deeds" were really just her stealing artifacts for herself, and caused them a lot of problems, showing how even someone as heroic as her has flaws. Yet during the entirety of the show's run, neither character ever tried to reason with her and on many occasions put not only her, but many other ponies, in life-or-death situations. This makes Daring Do come off as a scapegoat for villains who blame all their misfortunes on her after repeatedly trying to steal from her or kill her and failing, and A Lighter Shade of Grey at most.
    • Rainbow Dash has also fallen into this as well. She's supposed to be in the wrong for refusing to consider that Dr. Caballeron may be a misunderstood and tragic figure, with Fluttershy even calling her out for not giving him a chance to speak his peace. However, given his past appearances involved him kidnapping Rainbow (and Quibble Pants in the former episode) to use as bait for a trap for Daring Do, and he's tried a very similar scheme as in this episode before (lying about Daring Do to defame her to the public), it's really not hard to understand why Rainbow wouldn't trust him.
  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic:
    • Ahuizotl is also this. The episode presents him as having done nothing wrong and Daring Do's theft of artifacts as having been entirely at fault. However, some fans see Ahuizotl as being the one more in the wrong for trying to flat out murder her repeatedly via Death Trap while being comparably far more lax and even willingly working with the far more greedy and villainous Caballeron, especially given it never seemed to occur to Ahuizotl to just tell her about it. All of which gave Daring Do next to no reason to actually think he was anything but an evil monster in the first place.
    • Fluttershy is meant to be seen as a pony who tries sees the good in everypony, thus wanting to hear both sides of the story and getting to who Caballeron and Ahuizotal really is as a result. However, not only does she completely disregard her best friend Rainbow's warnings about Dr. Caballeron, she completely ignores the threats and insults, and many flaws that he tries to cover up. She also risks her own life trying to talk to Ahuizotl and getting his side of the story, making her seem Stupid Neutral at worse.

Daring Do seems correct as despite the episode presenting her as doing horrible things, she still comes off better than Caballeron and Ahuizotal, who have tried to ruin and kill her respectively, without seeming like they could be reasoned with. The things she did such as ruining ancient sites (which wasnít even intentional) and hoarding treasure wasnít even that bad.

Rainbow Dash seems to fall more into Informed Wrongness than anything.

Ahuizotal seems correct, no comment here.

Not sure about the Fluttershy entry I written.

I also remember there was an entry for Caballeron a while ago, but I deleted that because it complained about him being a Karma Houdini rather than how he is unsympathetic. Suprised someone hasnít rewritten it yet.

[down] Who are you talking to? If youíve asked me before then I donít remember you asking something like that.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Jun 23rd 2020 at 8:44:17 AM

WarJay77 Just a Lynkser who likes Clay from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Just a Lynkser who likes Clay
Jun 23rd 2020 at 4:39:30 PM

Again, I just need to ask what these analyses are being based on. Are you basing it on how fans feel- or how you think the fans should feel based on the source material? Because again, this is an audience reaction. It doesn't matter how objectively good or bad the character is portrayed as in the work, it matters if the audience finds reasons to sympathize with / not sympathize with them despite that intent.

I'm feeling like these posts keep swinging back around to somewhere that isn't UU or US.

A few helpful sandboxes: Tropes Needing TRS - TLP Adoption Drive - Trope Idea Salvage Yard
Klavice Komaeda is best boy. from Pacific Canada Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Komaeda is best boy.
Jun 27th 2020 at 4:32:59 AM

I wrote the "2, 4, 6 , Greaaaat" first entry for Rainbow Dash and I can tell you... Opinions on her in said seem very shall we say, split down the middle? The ending is generally liked, but several people have said Rainbow was a jerk for no reason... while just as many said she had a reason to be. It's a very wonky episode regardless and kind of sticks out especially since Rainbow being all happy that she sent someone away crying seems very OOC for RD at least for that stage in her development.

Edited by Klavice on Jun 27th 2020 at 9:53:41 AM

Tired and bored.
fragglelover Krazy Kat
Krazy Kat
Jun 28th 2020 at 5:43:23 PM

Found this on DuckTales (2017) S3 E7 "The Rumble for Ragnarok!":

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Dewey becomes this in the episode when it's made clear that even though losing the battle against Jormungandr and his fellow warriors will result in the world getting destroyed, he considers it more important to get the audience to cheer for him and his wrestling persona and obviously puts the fate of his realm second to this. He later realizes his mistake and decides to focus on the match, which gets the crowd on his side.

MEOW!
ShinyCottonCandy Resident CTR:NF Master from Wumpa Island Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Resident CTR:NF Master
Jun 28th 2020 at 5:51:00 PM

[up]I feel like that's intentional. Just the fact that Dewey realizes the problem and fixes it points to that.

There's a theme I've noticed that whenever the protagonist is the unsympathetic one, somebody assumes that it must be unintentional. Anyone else notice it, or is it just the fact that I happen to end up on the pages with that type of thing more frequently?

I need to think of a better signature.
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jun 28th 2020 at 7:06:20 PM

No, it's definitely a thing. I think it's a mixture of "but the work doesn't condemn this enough" whining, and just plain inability to acknowledge that works can present the protagonist as being in the wrong.

Jun 29th 2020 at 8:56:34 PM

[up][up][up]Re-removed that.

The Last of Us Part II

  • The game's second half has you play as Abby and being introduced to her backstory, character arc and development, which wins some players over by gradually sympathizing with her over the course of her chapters, particularly after she befriends Lev and Yara. However, there are still many who can't get over the cruel and sadistic manner of which she kills Joel, in front of Ellie no less, as well as the fact that said backstory happens right after she kills Jesse. She later gravelly wounds Tommy and then tries to murder Dina and expresses no remorse when she learns Dina is pregnant at this point. Any attempt to humanize her after all that is too little, too late for many.
  • Though the game portrayed Manny as a very nice person from Abby's perspective, the fact that he spat on Joel's corpse was more than enough for a lot of players to hate him and look forward to his death, which came eventually by Joel's brother Tommy's hands with much rejoicing. The fact that he casually tried to kill Ellie in the prologue, while she was pinned to the ground and sobbing, did not help at all.
  • To some, Tommy ended up on this list after his guilt-tripping of Ellie over Abby getting away ends up destroying Ellie's relationship with Dina and the family life they had built. Granted, Ellie was still smarting about that herself and Tommy did lose his brother to Abby and he was narrowly killed by the same person himself after witnessing his ally Jesse dying, but if he hadn't pushed Ellie's buttons to act on it, she might've come to terms with it in due time, especially in light of Dina's obvious support and loving care.

Abby sounds like trying to sneak in a Base-Breaking Character entry early as written. Manny sounds like it was from a deliberately biased perspective and something minor compare to the other evildoings in the game. Tommy fails to explain how it's unintentional and given it causes the bitter parts of the ending seems intentional. Thoughts?

Proposed rework for Abby:

  • Abby was portrayed as having undergone redeeming Character Development after brutally murdering Joel as revenge for their killing her father, realizingit wasn't worth it and thus deservingly gets better off than Ellie who would remain consumed with revenge until the ending. This rang hollow to many due to Abby's qcontinued cruelties such as gleefully attempting to kill Dina after learning she was pregnant stopping only because Lev told her to while Ellie is guilt ridden after realizing Mel who she killed was pregnant and her other actions and ultimately struggled and chose to break the Cycle of Revenge unlike Abby. Abby's karma of losing her friends and pet dog to Ellie's Roaring Rampage of Revenge was seen by many instead as everyone but Abby suffering for it.

Should I add a disclaimer saying not to edit this without forum approval given all the controversy this game is causing?

Update: fixed some typos.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jul 1st 2020 at 6:52:53 AM

Crossover-Enthusiast Stretch those shoulders! from somewhere doing something Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Jun 30th 2020 at 12:16:37 AM

[up]Added.

Thought about the Manny and Tommy examples?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jun 30th 2020 at 12:17:44 PM

Klavice Komaeda is best boy. from Pacific Canada Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Komaeda is best boy.
Jun 30th 2020 at 9:37:41 PM

I don't have anything nice to say about TLOU 2 especially with people eagerly claiming it has video gaming's first Female protagonist. (Which is obviously wrong.) But I think you made the right calls. I agree Tommy doesn't show why he's meant to be symlathized with.

Tired and bored.
Crossover-Enthusiast Stretch those shoulders! from somewhere doing something Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Stretch those shoulders!
Jun 30th 2020 at 10:26:57 PM

[up][up] I agree with your assessments. Cut away!

[up] I... Did they even play TLOUI? Wait scratch that, have they even seen a video game in general???

Friendly reminder that the ARMS soundtrack slaps
WarJay77 Just a Lynkser who likes Clay from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Just a Lynkser who likes Clay
Jun 30th 2020 at 10:27:40 PM

[up][up] I...there are no words.

A few helpful sandboxes: Tropes Needing TRS - TLP Adoption Drive - Trope Idea Salvage Yard
Serac Chill Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Chill
Jun 30th 2020 at 10:46:34 PM

I think we can safely say those people are just trolling.

Crossover-Enthusiast Stretch those shoulders! from somewhere doing something Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Stretch those shoulders!
Jun 30th 2020 at 11:01:33 PM

You'd be surprised how far people will stretch to further their own agenda.

Friendly reminder that the ARMS soundtrack slaps
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