Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

Yeah, it's nowhere near black and white morality. Maybe one side is a lighter shade of grey but they're still grey and gray (aside from maybe Viren and Aavaros being black and the protagonists being whitish).

Side note, I cut the whole thing about elves being unsympathetic because humans are trying to take back their lands (which is talked up by one character, Viren, who is portrayed as an extremist/villain) and the elves assassinating the king, because it came off as saying that the elves had no right to avenge the Dragon king and prince. Anyone take issue with that? If so, let's hash it out here.

Looking at Reddit, it seems more like both sides get called out in roughly equal amounts at a quick glance. It's not rah rah humans good elves evil at all outside of a few extremists, so that should be noted

My troper wall

Yeah. The series overall says both sides made mistakes. Especially when it comes to the Cycle of Revenge

It's definitely not a Black vs. White conflict- one particular scene with Ziard at the beginning of Season 3 provided a nice inversion of the "and then the Fire Nation attacked!" moment about Dark Magic in the opening narration. It's more a Grey vs. Grey type conflict, just one that's not handled particularly well, and that's where the problems arise.

The series has a definite, explicit moral thesis that it wants to promote, but the conclusion isn't supported by the events of the plot. Certain details, when taken together, incline an impartial observer more towards the villains than the show itself intends, because the writing fails to properly account for the moral implications of certain facts that it itself sets up. The end result is effectively that The Dragon Prince expects me, as an audience member, to selectively prosecute in favor of the designated protagonists simply because they are the protagonists.

According to the moral lesson of The Dragon Prince, yes, the Elves explicitly did not have the right to avenge the Dragon King and Prince. The show's writing takes a very dim view of the idea of revenge as a motive.

yey

How valid is this entry under Crazy Ex-Girlfriend?

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Paula's reaction to Scott's one-night-stand with Tanya can come across as rather harsh and disproportionate. The cheating itself was spontaneous on Scott's end, and his immediate reaction was to own up to his mistake and apologize to Paula. Without a moment's hesitation, Paula kicks him out of the house, and when she finally relents, it's only to make him jump through more hoops than a fraternity hazing. Not once does anyone acknowledge that her response might have been on the excessive side. It gets even worse when you remember that she'd been actively considering cheating on Scott with Calvin back in season 1 and likely would have kept it secret had she gone through with it.

The last line I agree with, but the rest I'm not so sure.

I'll have a crack at rewriting this example from YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 9 E 21 Daring Doubt, since it fails to explain why she was meant to be seen as sympathetic:

• Fluttershy, of all ponies, falls into this herself for some fans as throughout the episode, she keeps giving the bad guys a break despite the fact that they have done pretty nasty things to not only Daring Do, but her and her friends as well. Not only that, but she also doesn't realize or just flat-out disregards the fact that Dr. Caballeron and Ahuizotl's past actions have much more dire consequences than Daring Do's.

How's this?:

• Fluttershy is meant to be seen as a pony who tries sees the good in everypony, thus wanting to hear both sides of the story and getting to who Caballeron and Ahuizotal really is as a result. However, not only does she completely disregard her best friend Rainbow's warnings about Dr. Caballeron, she completely ignores the threats and insults, and many flaws that he tries to cover up. She also risks her own life trying to talk to Ahuizotl and getting his side of the story, making her seem Stupid Neutral at worse.

Quick ramble here, but for the conflict in this episode, it really seems that Daring Do is more like A Lighter Shade of Grey at most than on the same level on Caballeron and Ahuizotal, like they both tried to ruin her and kill her respectively. Hoarding treasures doesn't really seem that bad compared to what those two did.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Dec 14th 2019 at 1:47:43 PM

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There was also this entry here:

• Dr. Caballeron has come off as this to a good portion of the fandom. Yes, he realizes the error of his ways in the end, and he even makes amends with Daring Do as the two co-write a book together under their aliases. However, many felt that it was hollow and didn't justify the many times in the past he's put not only Daring Do, but her own friends and innocent bystanders in harms way just to steal treasure, or more recently try to turn ordinary townsponies and her own fans against her with misinformation and lies. In the end many felt he shouldn't have been as Easily Forgiven faced some kind of punishment for all things he's done over the years.

This comes off more like complaining that he didn't get punished rather than an attempt to explain why he was supposed to be seen as sympathetic in the episode.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Dec 14th 2019 at 1:57:33 PM

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Agreed. Being treated as unsympathetic for being a villain until they pull a Heel–Face Turn isn't this. Must explain why he was supposed to be sympathetic despite this as was the case with Ahuizotl same ep.

On the subject of being villains for such, UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Video Games:

• Metroid: Other M: Melissa Bergman/MB is regarded by Samus as a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, who was unfairly used by the Galactic Federation as a means for a telepathic army. While there's some truth to this, the story treats her as though all her megalomania came from their treatment from her, and not from being a clone of Mother Brain, the archetypal power-hungry AI of the Metroid series. Samus then claims MB killing all the staff aboard the Bottle Ship as her vengeance, wanting to merely "punish the foolish and conceited", but that's an overly excusing reading of a someone who murdered hundreds for the actions of a few and then planned galactic genocide.

I intend to cut this since 1. while getting Sympathy for the Devil, they're still a villain who has to be stopped because of it. 2. I've seen no backlash or criticism outside this entry against MB, thought this may be due to more contentious issues in the work overshadowing it. 3. The "but that's an overly excusing reading" sounds like the troper trying to force their opinion onto the reader.

This issue sound more like Informed Wrongness by those allegedly mistreating her due to the danger she posed. Should I cut and move it?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Dec 20th 2019 at 8:12:15 AM

I see the second point, but as for the first- again, sympathetic villains exist. A character being a villain in no way automatically disqualifies them from this trope.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.

Agree, it's not a disqualifier. But it is strike against the "unintentionally" part so such warrant extra scrutiny. Such that I think the issue fits a different trope better.

Per this, I'm cutting as the entry ignores that it shows they would have likely redeemed MB if not for outside circumstance.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Dec 21st 2019 at 1:53:35 AM

I found this on The Rise of Skywalker. Warning Spoilers.

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Rey's parents to an extent. While it's revealed they did love her and only left her to protect her from her grandfather, their idea of 'protecting' her involved selling her off to a sleazy, abusive junk trader who could've done god knows what to her (in The Force Awakens novelization, he even lusts after her). They could've at least ensured she was given her to someone who would've truly cared for her; handing her off to Plutt makes them come off as being neglectful.

Can someone who has saw the film comment because I don't know if it's correct or not.

Edit: Also sorry if this thread has a waiting limit.

Edited by Bullman on Dec 21st 2019 at 7:17:58 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

I'm pretty sure the only threads with Waiting periods are Broken Base and Base Breaking Character, Complete Monster, and Magnificent Bastard. And HS is debatable as you can write a candidate up without an effortpost. I don't recall them being portrayed as sympathetic regardless, as a UU character HAS to be portrayed as Sympathetic either by the fans or Narrative. Rey's parents are just seen as A Lighter Shade of Black. Bad people, just not as bad as Palpatine

Edited by Klavice on Dec 22nd 2019 at 4:55:21 AM

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.

Can you remove then. I would, but I am using my phone and can't quite see the words well enough.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

I'm fairly certain Hate Sink doesn't have a waiting period.

Alright. Changed it to BB and BBC.

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.

Btw these two examples on Star Wars read off to me.

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic:
  • The Jedi Order suffer from being this since they exclusively recruited very young children and forbade emotional attachment, compared to Luke and many pre-Prequel Trilogy EU works depicting Jedi beginning training as teens or adults and being allowed to have relationships. This led to many fans viewing the prequel-era Jedi as brainwashed child soldiers, and they could be fairly snooty as well with Qui-Gon insisting to Shimi he didn't come to free slaves in The Phantom Menace and Mace Windu's distrust of Anakin in Revenge of the Sith being notable examples.
  • One of the more common complaints about the Prequel Trilogy is that they hinge on Anakin being a tragic hero who elicits sympathy from the audience, yet they emphasize his tragedy more than his heroism. His more heroic traits are either downplayed or resigned to expository dialogue. Among many things, The Clone Wars is often praised for rectifying this through retroactively presenting Anakin with more heroic qualities as well as the events leading to his inevitable fall to the Dark Side in a more in-depth and nuanced manner.

I have no clue what the second one is even saying since they admitt he's a tragic character. Plus I don't think we're supposed to agree with the prequel era jedi order ideology.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

@Bullman: I say cut Rey's parent's as they get too little screentime to know the full context behind their actions or be given a intended sympathy value.

YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 7 E 23 Secrets And Pies

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Viewers are supposed to sympatize Pinkie Pie, since Rainbow Dash did lie about pies. But Pinkie becomes very petty as the episode goes on; disliking her pies is like a personal vendetta when it certainly isn't.

I say cut because Pinkie 1. goes through a lot of self-inflicted misery as a result 2. reconciles with Rainbow as soon they're able to establish their reasons 3. the sequel comic which released before the episode is all about Pinkie's Jerkass Realization over it. That's a lot of evidence it's not unintentional.

Any comments on the two entries I brought up?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Film explains why they are examples. Anakin failed to adequately show his redeeming traits that were supposed to counterbalance his fall. The Jedi failed to have their flaws properly acknowledged in the films. That the EU and The Clone Wars were so well received for fixing it proves it was a problem in the first place. Reworking them to explain why they were supposed to be sympathetic despite their flaws, why audiences felt otherwise, and how later works fixed it would be good.

Thoughts on "Secrets and Pies"? I thinks it's complaining about them being temporarily Unsympathetic Comedy Protagonists as opposed to anything unintentional.

Yea, I’d say take a knife to to the Pinkie example. Honestly it seems like there’s some people on here with a beef against Pinkie, judging by some of the older examples that were eventually scrubbed clean like her old BBC example. (Admittedly, I dislike Pinkie myself, but I try not to let that seep through.)

Oh yea, the first post on here mentioned that Broken Base examples don’t qualify for Unintentionally Unsympathetic. So should the old entry from My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic S5 E5 "Tanks for the Memories" remain deleted or not? I shouldn’t have deleted it on a whim and just asked here.

Entry:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Rainbow Dash was supposed to be reluctantly sabotaging winter to avoid being separated from her pet Tank while he hibernated. But in the process she wrecks the weather factory endangering many workers and Ponyville, something Rainbow shows no regret for nor faces consequences over (besides losing Tank for the winter which would have happened anyway).

Contradicting Evidence:

• Base-Breaking Character: Rainbow Dash is either seen as a misguided, but well-intentioned friend who just wants to not have to say goodbye to Tank or an entitled Karma Houdini that got away with damaging the Cloudsdale Weather Factory for selfish reasons.
• Broken Base: The episode itself is either loved for being a comedic and emotional roller coaster with a powerful message about how you shouldn't be afraid to say goodbye to someone you love or hated for seemingly justifying Rainbow's behavior and believing the epsiode's emotional core was used to gloss over the fact that she recklessly damaged the Cloudsdale Weather Factory for completely selfish reasons and didn't face any consequences for her actions.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Jan 2nd 2020 at 6:27:47 AM

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I'd say Broken Base and the Base-Breaking Character status that RD has in both this episode and in general erodes the Unintentionally Unsympathetic status in this episode especially if both are listed.

I mean it's not clear we're supposed to sympathize with Rainbow, and she DOES face karma on a regular basis even for things like Cant Get Away With Nothing or things that aren't even her fault. Since another episode with a similar dilemma exists (2 4 6 Greaaaat) I think I should probably add this to Broken Base on said episode.

• Broken Base: We're supposed to see Rainbow getting chewed out and seemingly making Ocellus cry as a huge Kick the Dog moment, but to some it feels unwarranted as Rainbow not only didn't want the job as cheer coach in the first place, but she also genuinely feels bad. Fans are divided on whether Rainbow should have even kept her job and that her apology seemed hollow or was justified since everything was stacked against her.

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.

YMMV.The Rise Of Skywalker:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Rey's decision to bury Luke and Leia's lightsabers in Luke's old home on Tatooine. The owners of those lightsabers had terrible experiences on the planet, and it would probably be the last place they'd ever want to return to, let alone be buried there. (as Luke and Leia didn't leave behind bodies, the lightsaber burial would be the closest equivalent Rey can manage) Anakin grew up there as a slave, and his mom was tortured to death there. Luke thought life on Tatooine was boring and wanted to have a career as a pilot off world, not to mention his aunt and uncle died there. Leia was enslaved by Jabba the Hutt there. It feels like a tone deaf scene, where it acts more as service to the fans than it is an act of legitimate respect to the owners of those lightsabers from an in-universe logic. However, Luke and Leia, at least, don't seem bothered that much, judging by the appearances of their Force-Spirits there.

The last sentences was just added so now it's arguing with itself. I think this would be a valid example if it explains why Rey's actions were meant to come off as sympathetic in-universe. Anything?

Feels like it's stretching the trope a bit, as who is supposed to be the target of sympathy here? How is Rey supposed to get sympathy for herself by honoring Luke and Leia's deaths?

I'd say it's more an in-universe example of unfortunate implications at worst, because wouldn't Rey pick Luke's hometown by default? And how in the world would she know they had unpleasant experiences on that planet?

I say cut it.

I agree that is stretching this tropes having seen the film. I say cut it.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 5 E 12 Amending Fences

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Moondancer may come across as such to some who perceive that she held Twilight at fault simply for not being or staying friends with her, when they had moved apart. It doesn't help that she expected Twilight to show up to her party, yet never even invited her personally, nor cared that her other friends did attend, making her come off as petty and selfish. There's also the fact that she displays a rather blatant Entitled to Have You attitude towards Twilight as well.

It say she may, red-flag, be seen as unsympathetic to those who see her as unsympathetic, as opposed to why she was supposed to be sympathetic despite this. Other problems:

1. If the flashback was to be believed, Moondancer was too busy setting the party up to invite Twilight in person.
2. Given Twilight's character and circumstances at the time she would have declined even if Moondancer invited her in person.
3. Moondancer's other friended reminding her she still had them was a key part in her getting over it, so that's not unintentional. The point was she was unfairly allowing that one moment to taint her view on friendship.

Moondancer and her episode is one of the more fondly remembered because of this, especially compared to Starlight Glimmer who had a similar backstory. This is the only place I've seen criticism agains her suggests it's a tropers personal opinion as opposed to common enough to be this trope. Thoughts?

I want to bring this from Coco

I understand that Imelda can be too stubborn and a jerk at times due to being an Well-Intentioned Extremist, but how is that interpretation even possible? Besides the fact that while she may be putting tradition above Miguel's life, he is putting his dream above his own life as well. And the movie does call her out on enforcing that ban.