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Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

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The criteria for Unintentionally Unsympathetic says:

"When a character's supposed insecurities or embarrassing quirks are supposed to inspire sympathy, but fail to impress the audience because they're mishandled or plain written badly. It can be made even worse if they have to learn a lesson. Without being at least somewhat invested in the characters, the audience might have passed the point of caring when the character finally comes around."

This is the basic criteria of the trope. There is more after but I am not sure what was present from the start and what was edited in afterwords to expand the definition. This trope is becoming more popular, with the page starting to be split-off into sub pages and such. And like all popular YMMV tropes this is causing an influx of bad examples that are probably just one-sided complaining, shoehorning, and bashing which is not in the spirit of this wiki. You can see this is causing issues just by looking at the pages discussion thread. I felt that the trope needed a dedicated cleanup thread. This way edits can be done without causing edit wars and getting people banned.

Some guidelines if a character or event is Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

1. It has to be unintentional on the authors part. It is in the title. All examples that were intentional on the author's part are disqualified by definition.

2. The example should state exactly why the author or narrative intended the subject to have been sympathetic and why it failed to resonate with the audience. If the example can not clearly state these two points, it is a bad example and needs to at minimum be rewritten.

3. Neutral tone: No insults. I know it is fun to complain about stuff but complaining is not in the spirit of the wiki. So long as one side isn't promoting hate speech examples should be written without taking a side. Examples that are heavily favoring one side or insulting the other side are probably not valid examples.

4. There should be a wide accepted disagreement between the audience and the author to be a valid example. By that I mean that there should be large consensus in the audience disagreeing with the author over why the character is unsympathetic instead of sympathetic. If the audience is too divided and one section thinks agrees with the author and the other doesn't, the example could be a pet peeve of a single person, which isn’t noteworthy.

Lastly, always consider Square Peg, Round Trope and be mindful if the example may fit better under a different trope such as Base-Breaking Character, Broken Base, and The Scrappy. Please visit other cleanup threads if you have questions about tropes that do not involve Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

Feel free to help if you spot some bad examples or can point out more rules for the trope. Or argue with me over the definitions, this is a cleanup thread after all.

MOD NOTICE: As of October 26, 2022, this thread now covers Unintentionally Sympathetic as well.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 26th 2022 at 8:15:48 AM

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#2801: Apr 24th 2025 at 10:51:15 PM

Woobie and UU aren't mutually exclusive, as some can see them one way or the other/can varies in their appearances. If majority see one way or other, how can you tell enough a majority to say other untrue?

Thoughts on these from UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Video Games?

  • Kirby:
    • Kirby: Triple Deluxe: The Big Bad Sectonia, according to Word of God, only became a narcissistic tyrant after she went insane from staring into the corrupted Dimension Mirror for too long. But without glancing at some pause menu descriptions in the postgame, all you're likely to see is a one-dimensional villain who, in short order, blasts her loyal servant Taranza off a tower for failing her, constantly boasts about her beauty and power, attempts to ascend to godhood, threatens to feed on the inhabitants of Planet Popstar for eternity, and spends WAY too much time in the background in her final form, making The Reveal of her tragic descent into madness pretty abrupt. Added lore in Kirby: Planet Robobot heavily implies that Sectonia has used her parasitic magic on innocents for at least 1000 years just to become more beautiful, which further undercuts the sympathetic angle the writers meant to go for. '''The statement she's supposed to by sympathetic is obscure than the pause menus hinting it, so does that undercut the obscurity argument? Possible UU in last part suggesting evildoing before what corrupted her.
    • Kirby: Planet Robobot: Susie is made out to be a Tragic Villain given her frustration at President Haltmann, her own father, not remembering her due to amnesia and treating her coldly, but it's seriously undercut by the fact that unlike Haltmann, who only became evil through being corrupted by Star Dream, or Star Dream itself, which is merely following its programming, Susie from everything we see has complete moral agency and thus doesn't have any excuse for her Fantastic Racism, or the fact that she shows no remorse for subjecting various residents of Pop Star to Unwilling Roboticization. It's not helped by the fact that she's the one inadvertently responsible for Star Dream going rogue and trying to exterminate all life, or the fact that unlike Haltmann and Star Dream, she escapes and goes unpunished. Other than Enemy Mine, don't think she's ment to be that sympathetic given she's one of the few such not to be redeemed. Possible UU is not trying to remind/explain to her father before turning to villainy.
    • Kirby Star Allies: Hyness is initially presented as a purely despicable, Dark Matter-worshipping lunatic who uses his loyal followers like weapons and even human sacrifices in pursuit of a revenge that would destroy the entire universe. Then the "Heroes in Another Dimension" update came along, revealing (somewhat hastily, even for series standards) that Hyness is actually a tragic Reluctant Psycho, and Kirby redeems him simply by throwing a Friend Heart at him, when previous tragic villains like Queen Sectonia and President Haltmann weren't forgiven for their evil actions and got killed off permanently. This has left a somewhat sour taste in some fans' mouths, who would have preferred it if he were never presented as sympathetic. Possible, but putting why unsympathetic first is odd formatting, making is sound more complaints of Easily Forgiven than unsympathetic for different reasons than intended.

Hyness I've seen issue with, but the others this is the first I've heard complaints so not sure if widespread enough to count.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Apr 24th 2025 at 10:53:53 AM

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2802: Apr 25th 2025 at 4:08:03 AM

[up] keep Hyness, cut Susie, I’m torn on sections as while most find her sympathetic in triple deluxe, I can imagine the reveal in Planet Robobot would lose sympathy points

KawhiMidoriya1 Bubsy the Bobcat Fan 420 from Quahog Rhode Island Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Bubsy the Bobcat Fan 420
#2803: Apr 26th 2025 at 3:28:20 PM

From Love Hina:

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Naru in pretty much everything she does, but one scene in the manga stands out: Keitaro and Naru have flunked their entrance exams and are understandably depressed. They go to a bar and start drinking and promptly get into an argument to vent their frustrations. This soon turns nasty and both parties say harsh things, but Naru not only starts it, she proves she cannot take what she dishes out — she calls Keitaro out on being a clumsy, lecherous idiot and accuses him of whining whenever everything goes wrong and tells him the girl of his promise wouldn't look twice at a loser like him. Unsurprisingly, this pisses Keitaro off and he (for once) retorts back that she's a violent, bad-tempered bitch who wrecked her eyesight studying and she still flunked her exams, citing that the person she promised to get accepted at the U (Seta) would have quite some words for her, too. Nothing Keitaro says is any worse than Naru's criticisms, but she bursts into tears, hits him with her bag and runs off, leaving him to pay for their drinks, and hops on a train to just get away from him. And the narrative treats Keitaro like he went too far.

I just reread this chapter to talk about this but Naru wasn't meant to be sympathetic in this scene. This just feels more like complaining.

AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#2804: Apr 26th 2025 at 3:39:59 PM

[up] People REALLY hate Naru. This is almost a rule on TV Tropes. It is against the actual rules but BOY do people really hate her. And not only that, fics that hate her have gushy, lovingly crafted pages.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#2805: Apr 26th 2025 at 8:38:35 PM

[up][up]Cut as it doesn't explain why they were supposed to be sympathetic. Just realized last part addressed why unintentional. Removed first part as general, not familiar enough with work to say what to do otherwise.

YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 4 E 20 For Whom The Sweetie Belle Toils

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Sure, Luna is in the right to teach Sweetie Belle the error of her ways and has good intentions. She even shows up on person to help Sweetie Belle fix Rarity's outfits to undue the sabotage. But her methods of getting Sweete Belle involved conjuring up a rather frightening ( for a child ) nightmare where her sister loses her career and shuts herself off in shame; basically m guilt tripping a child with an exaggerated scenario. Consider Sweetie Belle is like 8-12 at max, this could have left long term scaring or traumatized her. Luna has reason to be form but she it's easy to consider this à step too far, if not outright cruel, when dealing with a little girl who had understandable jealously issues with her older sister.

Formatting issues aside, this is the first I've heard this complaint and the fandom is normally vocal about such, so I suspect not widespread enough to count. Might be UU if it explains a less objectionable method Luna could have used instead of such drastic steps.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Apr 28th 2025 at 8:07:11 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#2806: Apr 26th 2025 at 8:41:32 PM

Yeah, never heard that. People like Luna, and the nightmares are just a Scare 'Em Straight tactic (also weird to single out this one specifically, she does it to the other Crusaders too)

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 26th 2025 at 11:41:58 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#2807: Apr 26th 2025 at 9:16:52 PM

While inducing nightmares is rather questionable, the lack of grammar makes it hard to take seriously.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2808: Apr 30th 2025 at 6:23:12 AM

This was just added to Kingdom Hearts III

  • Saix. While he at least Used to Be a Sweet Kid as his original self, Isa, Saix has consistently been pragmatically cruel at best and horrifically petty and spiteful at worst, with his awful treatment of Roxas, Xion, and Axel in Days being difficult to stomach in ways that other acts of villainy in the series aren't. But come this game, he abruptly reveals a sympathetic quality out of nowhere that retroactively spurred much of his rancid behavior in previous games: a desire to find and rescue the mysterious Subject X, and Axel seemingly abandoning their shared goal to find her, along with jealousy towards Axel's newfound friendship with Roxas and Xion, was what turned him into a hateful Green-Eyed Monster in the first place. While he at least puts in more work to be worthy of sympathy than Ansem, Xemnas, or Xehanort, it doesn't change the fact that he still verbally abused, belittled, degraded, and dehumanized Xion, as well as tried to trick her and Roxas into fighting to the death all because he was pissy that his former best friend found new friends to hang out with. While it's understandable that Axel/Lea would be willing to forgive him despite everything he had done due to their history together, the fact that two teenagers who only knew him as their abusive and cruel superior would do the same, up to the point of sharing ice cream on Twilight Town's clock tower with him, did not sit well with a big chunk of the fanbase.

While I have seen this complaint lobbied quite commonly I’m wondering if it fits better under Easily Forgiven, as it notes he does put some effort into actually bettering himself, or is the entry fine?

GearFriedTheKnight BLOCKING - A weapon for the 21st century. from The nearest road that can be raced (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
BLOCKING - A weapon for the 21st century.
#2809: Apr 30th 2025 at 6:42:10 AM

[up]I'll point out that Saix previously had an entry under Hate Sink that was given the green light to be cut yesterday, so I cannot help but wonder if this is a way to get around it seen the timing.

As for the post, yeah it reads far more as Easily Forgiven than Unintentionally Unsympathetic. There may be a point that people continue to find Saix unsympatetic due to his behaviour in Days despite his tragic friendship with Subject X, how he threw away his heart to try and help her, how he ended up losing sight of his real goal in favour of Xemnas and Org. XIII, and how he ultimately decided to secretly betray Xehanort in 3, even trying to help Axel and Xion remember one another in the re-release, but the entry doesn't seem to go for that.

''There's no magic in tuning; yet, it's something that tends to escape from any logic."
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#2810: Apr 30th 2025 at 4:28:20 PM

[up]So should any UU entries just about those they think got forgiven too easily rather than unsympathetic for different reasons than acknowledged by the work just be moved to Easily Forgiven?

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2811: May 2nd 2025 at 6:02:22 AM

[up][up] So rewrite this entry or condense it to Easily Forgiven?

lowbal_mcgee Since: Jul, 2017
#2812: May 2nd 2025 at 9:24:36 PM

[up] For what it's worth Saïx already has an entry for Easily Forgiven on his character page, presumably from before it was made a YMMV trope. So I agree condensing the UU entry down to that for the actual YMMV page should be the best idea.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2813: May 4th 2025 at 6:37:00 AM

Similarly now that Easily Forgiven is a subtrope of Unsympatetic I’m wondering if these entries should be removed from the unsympathic Pokemon page or if they’re fine staying:

  • Faba is meant to be somebody whose villainy came from letting jealousy get the better of him in a Moment of Weakness and is working towards improving himself and making amends. However, since Faba's first action upon being caught was trying to pin his crimes on Lusamine, his Heel Realization occurs offscreen, along with a lack of any major changes in his behavior (such as the Alola League proving he’s still willing to resort to dirty tactics to obtain victory), makes many feel he's just pretending to be remorseful to gain a lighter sentence.
  • Lillie the Shiny Nihilego is meant to be seen as a Tragic Villain who only lashed out of fear of losing Mohn after he treated her like his own daughter for years. Several fans however, see Shiny Lillie as an abusive gaslighter for doing everything in her power to keep Mohn from regaining his memories, such as not letting him venture far from their cabin or smashing any reflective surface, being so desperate to keep Mohn at arm’s length she won’t even let him see his own reflection. Despite this behavior we are supposed to see her being welcomed into the Aether family as a Happy Ending, when it comes off closer to rewarding her for not physically hurting Mohn.
  • Norman from the Ruby & Sapphire chapter is meant to be seen as a flawed but understandable parent who wants to prepare his son Ruby for the world’s dangers, but struggles with the fact an accident Ruby supposedly causednote  cost Norman a major promotion and hit to his reputation. In practice, many people see Norman as a controlling Abusive Parent due to his dismissal of Ruby’s trauma and willingness to use violence to bring him home after he ran away. Said accident involved Norman taking the blame to protect Ruby, but he was only six at the time and likely wouldn't have gotten a serious punishment, making the hit to Norman's reputation self-inflicted by his needless sacrifice.

For full disclosure I was the author of all these entries but had gotten approval from the thread and they were made before Easily Forgiven was reclassified as YMMV

Edited by Mariofan99 on May 7th 2025 at 9:00:43 AM

king15 Have Faun Since: Mar, 2024
Have Faun
#2814: May 6th 2025 at 10:39:57 AM

These UU entries are from the YMMV page for Game of Thrones S7E5: "Eastwatch":

  • While Randyll is xenophobic, as shown by his earlier treatment of Gilly after he found out she was a wildling, even though she was the mother of what he thought was his grandson, and he is supporting Cersei despite her having already proven herself to be a cruel and short-sighted ruler, one could argue that he did have a valid political point in his final scene. Dany has spent the entire series preparing to rule Westeros, but she hasn't actually been there for 20 years, doesn't truly know anything about it or its people, and her army likewise is made up of people who have never been to Westeros and are unlikely to feel any particular loyalty to it above their loyalty to her and enforcing her will. To people who haven't seen her story arc, i.e. most of Westeros, Randyll's concerns are not unreasonable, as she could have her armies loyal only to her and not the peace and stability of the Seven Kingdoms. I feel like Randyll is meant to be at least partially sympathetic here, as he does bring up a valid point (whether it actually applies or not).
  • Arya criticizing Sansa for having Ned and Cat's room, which Jon insisted she take when they won Winterfell back from the Boltons and commenting, "You always did like nice things. It made you feel better than everyone else," which seems really uncalled for and unfair, as she does not ask Sansa why she has the room and is unfamiliar with Sansa and Jon's sibling relationship now. Not to mention she is angry with Sansa for letting the Northern lords speak their mind about Jon's decision to go south and seems to want to just kill them all without considering the consequences. When Sansa argues this is not how you get everyone to work together, Arya twists it around to make it about Sansa wanting to run Winterfell instead of Jon. Frankly, it's only practical for Sansa to be thinking about what will happen if Jon dies given the dangerous situations he's put himself in. Arya, for all her training in espionage, has Littlefinger lead her around by the nose and fall for a letter he planted in his room to sow distrust between the sisters. You'd think by now she'd have learnt to appreciate her family after spending so long separated from them. I'm pretty sure we're supposed to at least partially be siding with Sansa here, especially since she continues acting like this until the end of the show where she becomes Queen of the North. Arya is being manipulated by Littlefinger here, as the entry mentions, so isn't necessarily meant to be correct. She's paranoid because Littlefinger is manipulating the two of them. I get people generally dislike this plotline, but I'm not sure Arya being UU applies.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#2815: May 6th 2025 at 3:43:21 PM

[up]I'd say Faba an Norman are UU as unsympathetic for different reasons than narrative addresses, though Faba's later wrongdoings and karma make me question if it was unintentional as opposed played not seriously. (Does EF apply if it was supposed to be played for laughs/portrayed as undeserved?) "Lillie" I'd say just EG as getting off easy rather than different than acknowledged issues.

On the subject of UU entires that better fit EG now it's YMMV (which I added to/edited prior, can't recall how much)…

I intend to move this to Easily Forgiven as compared to many other forgivenesses in the series, Tempest's has comparatively few to no complaints (having a legitimate traumatic/tragic past, nearly died saving the heroes first, even if there are still arguments she got off easy. We've removed a MLP UU example prior as while they had potential for UU the [up]overwhelming majority of fandom did think them legitimate sympathetic, which seems similar to Tempest's case. Any objections to the move?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on May 6th 2025 at 3:44:08 AM

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#2816: May 6th 2025 at 3:58:17 PM

[up] Don't think it'd fit EF if 1. The entry doesn't describe who's forgiving and for what 2. I don't remember if Twilight heard her entire backstory or only a part of what's described.

I don't know about fan reception, but with her deal being similar to Starlight's (which according to many pages caused a massive backlash), I'd be surprised if there weren't callouts as well.

Edited by Amonimus on May 6th 2025 at 1:58:55 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Ayumi-chan 3rd happiest man in Connecticut from Iacon City (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
3rd happiest man in Connecticut
#2817: May 6th 2025 at 8:22:40 PM

Found this on YMMV.Olympia Soiree:

She/Her | Currently cleaning: N/A
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2818: May 7th 2025 at 6:00:11 AM

[up] What’s wrong with this entry?

Ayumi-chan 3rd happiest man in Connecticut from Iacon City (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
3rd happiest man in Connecticut
#2819: May 7th 2025 at 7:58:40 AM

[up] I'm afraid it complain-y and the fact I'm suspicious because I've never seen this reaction from fans.

She/Her | Currently cleaning: N/A
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#2820: May 7th 2025 at 10:08:07 AM

At YMMV.The Amazing Digital Circus

  • Unintentionally Sympathetic: For much of "Fast Food Masquerade", Ragatha is treated with derision by the rest of the cast for being high on Stupid Sauce, which affects her to the point where she holds up work progress, can barely even stand and/or speak coherently, and acts more callous towards everyone while under its influence. While this is supposed to show Ragatha's more selfish and Jerkass behavior bubbling under her Stepford Smiler persona, the fact is she only got high because she accidentally got Stupid Sauce in her eye while otherwise being fully committed to her Spudsy's work, which nobody noticed or seemed to care about. Thus, Ragatha's intoxicated behavior makes her seem far more pitiable than was likely intended, since she's essentially struggling under the influence of an unfamiliar substance, on top of everyone's hostile and dismissive attitude towards her for something that wasn't even her fault.

I find it very hard to buy it was "supposed to show Ragatha's more selfish and Jerkass behavior" (and it doesn't show it), considering she is visibly high. Rather, it just shows she too has things to complain about.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
MisterApes-a-lot Since: Mar, 2018
#2821: May 7th 2025 at 12:07:25 PM

[up] Right, that seems like whoever initially added the entry misread the intent of the scene. Cut it.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2822: May 7th 2025 at 1:42:11 PM

[up][up][up] then cut

As for my questions of the Pokémon entry

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#2823: May 7th 2025 at 5:51:25 PM

[up]Your question looks unfinished. I gave my thoughts on them [up][up][up][up][up][up][up] there. Do you have other questions regarding them?

YMMV.Avatar The Last Airbender The Southern Raiders

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: While Sokka demonstrates that the death of his and Katara's mother does upset him, the way that he processes it differently rubs fans off the wrong way as it does Katara. Sokka is always focused on the bigger picture, and knows where his priorities lie. Katara's accusation that Sokka didn't love their mother the way she did might be going too far, but it does speak to how Sokka doesn't realize how much his contrasting personality would hurt her with regards to that event. As a result, Sokka's mindset comes off as unsupportive and alienating because it appears as if he, her brother, doesn't care. It's not helped that Sokka doesn't address nor realize that at any point afterwards.

This reads to me more like personal complain/nitpicks ts over how some people deal with grief/trauma than a widespread opinion/complaint. Cut?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#2824: May 7th 2025 at 5:53:14 PM

I mean, yeah, people deal with trauma in different ways. Sokka can't really force himself to react how Katara does. Even then, I've never heard this opinion before.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2825: May 8th 2025 at 7:12:24 AM

[up][up] Cut the Sokka entry. Also, sorry, I didn’t see your response till now. So move Shiny Lillie but keep Norman’s entry.

However, seemed to be unsure what to do with Faba. As he does get karma which means it wouldn’t be UU in most ares, but there’s the fact the entry discusses the wide fandom belief his reformation was fake. Should we rewrite the entry or is it fine?

Edited by Mariofan99 on May 8th 2025 at 10:26:43 AM


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