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Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

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The criteria for Unintentionally Unsympathetic says:

"When a character's supposed insecurities or embarrassing quirks are supposed to inspire sympathy, but fail to impress the audience because they're mishandled or plain written badly. It can be made even worse if they have to learn a lesson. Without being at least somewhat invested in the characters, the audience might have passed the point of caring when the character finally comes around."

This is the basic criteria of the trope. There is more after but I am not sure what was present from the start and what was edited in afterwords to expand the definition. This trope is becoming more popular, with the page starting to be split-off into sub pages and such. And like all popular YMMV tropes this is causing an influx of bad examples that are probably just one-sided complaining, shoehorning, and bashing which is not in the spirit of this wiki. You can see this is causing issues just by looking at the pages discussion thread. I felt that the trope needed a dedicated cleanup thread. This way edits can be done without causing edit wars and getting people banned.

Some guidelines if a character or event is Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

1. It has to be unintentional on the authors part. It is in the title. All examples that were intentional on the author's part are disqualified by definition.

2. The example should state exactly why the author or narrative intended the subject to have been sympathetic and why it failed to resonate with the audience. If the example can not clearly state these two points, it is a bad example and needs to at minimum be rewritten.

3. Neutral tone: No insults. I know it is fun to complain about stuff but complaining is not in the spirit of the wiki. So long as one side isn't promoting hate speech examples should be written without taking a side. Examples that are heavily favoring one side or insulting the other side are probably not valid examples.

4. There should be a wide accepted disagreement between the audience and the author to be a valid example. By that I mean that there should be large consensus in the audience disagreeing with the author over why the character is unsympathetic instead of sympathetic. If the audience is too divided and one section thinks agrees with the author and the other doesn't, the example could be a pet peeve of a single person, which isn’t noteworthy.

Lastly, always consider Square Peg, Round Trope and be mindful if the example may fit better under a different trope such as Base-Breaking Character, Broken Base, and The Scrappy. Please visit other cleanup threads if you have questions about tropes that do not involve Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

Feel free to help if you spot some bad examples or can point out more rules for the trope. Or argue with me over the definitions, this is a cleanup thread after all.

MOD NOTICE: As of October 26, 2022, this thread now covers Unintentionally Sympathetic as well.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 26th 2022 at 8:15:48 AM

generation81 Since: Aug, 2021
#2626: Oct 25th 2024 at 4:33:57 PM

From Recap.The New Batman Adventures E 10 Torch Song


  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Cassidy. It's implied that Lynns isn't the first guy she's had a quick affair with before cruelly breaking up with them, and the fact that she still expected him to work for her as pyrotechnician during her tour after the breakup where he can still be close to her shows an extreme lack of judgement on her part. Combine that with her It's All About Me personality, and the pyrophobia Cassidy develops at the end of the episode could easily be seen as Laser-Guided Karma.

NGL, rewatching the episode, I don't get the feeling she's all that bad (maybe stupid), espec. Plus, i feel like treating traumatising a woman as karma is just... misogynistic.

Edited by generation81 on Oct 25th 2024 at 7:34:08 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#2627: Oct 25th 2024 at 4:47:12 PM

It feels iffy as written but is this how fans actually feel? (We judge on accuracy to the reaction, not on how bad things "actually" are)

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#2628: Oct 25th 2024 at 4:56:50 PM

It's been a while since I watched the episode, but I got the impression that we were supposed to view what happened to her as karma. The episode doesn't really paint her in a flattering light. There's a moment where she flirts with Batman and he rejects her. Then the ending emphasizes that she's traumatized by the whole ordeal. The show has done that before with bad guys who seemingly escaped justice.

Edited by SharkToast on Oct 25th 2024 at 4:57:53 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#2629: Oct 25th 2024 at 4:59:06 PM

In that case it can go

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
generation81 Since: Aug, 2021
#2630: Oct 25th 2024 at 4:59:32 PM

TBH, this feels like Values Dissonance given the implicit Victim Blaming in it, plus Karmic Overkill.

Edited by generation81 on Oct 25th 2024 at 7:59:59 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#2631: Oct 25th 2024 at 5:24:03 PM

Okay, but that's not really something we can do anything about. Either she's not meant to be sympathetic and thus it doesn't fit, or she is and fans disagree, at which point we don't have the right to argue.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
6f5e4d Since: Mar, 2019
#2632: Oct 26th 2024 at 11:07:31 AM

It's also worth noting she was planned to eventually become the second Firefly, the implication being the trauma broke her into the role. These plans never made it very far, so it's likely the karmic framing was meant to foreshadow this aborted storyline.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#2633: Oct 26th 2024 at 3:03:51 PM

[up]That can cause UU/US if the material to make them (un)sympathetic as intended didn't make it into the final product. Such doesn't invalidate UU/US, but is very much worth mentioning in the entires.

@BlastVision: I wrote Paul's UU entry because it took a decade of hindsight/reevaluation for fans to notice what made him intentionally unsympathetic, and the fandom consensus back then was he wasn't adequately called out for such. (I presume his calling out/redemption was overlooked as way more subtle than what fans were used to/were old enough at the time to get.) The Jedi Order from the Star Wars prequels have a similar UU entry that was discussed but nothing was done. I ask:

  • Is this more Ron the Death Eater if there's valid reason fans overlooked such?
  • Does Character Perception Evolution retroactively remove UU/US like it does for The Scrappy?
  • Would UU still apply if it explains why what was supposed to establish them as intentionally unsympathetic was overlooked/lost on audiences at the time?

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#2634: Oct 28th 2024 at 1:41:34 AM

At YMMV.Neon Genesis Evangelion

  • Unintentionally Sympathetic: Arguably Kaworu Nagisa, Rei's Spear Counterpart. Kaworu was intended to be even further into the Uncanny Valley than Rei, complete with a shocking reveal that he isn't even human; fans saw a heartbreaking Tragic Monster manipulated into destroying the world by the bad guys, something even he seemed less than enthused about, and ultimately committing suicide-by-giant robot in one of the series' most iconic tear-jerking moments. It doesn't help that both Kaworu and Rei have good chemistry with series lead Shinji Ikari, which was enthusiastically lapped up by the shippers. Word of God lampshaded the fans perception of Kaworu in After the End.

Aside "Arguably", which part of this makes his actions more justified than they were? The perception part is instead Draco in Leather Pants, while his Heroic Sacrifice just makes him intentionally sympathetic.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#2635: Oct 28th 2024 at 4:53:22 PM

[up]Cut as arguable and about intended alienness rather than sympatheticness.

[up][up]Any feedback on my questions about the Paul example?

Found this under UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Pokemon:

  • Game Freak released a video backstory for Pecharunt detailing how it was beloved by an elderly couple and only wanted to please them after feeding them its mochi and how terrified it was of Ogerpon. However, it also shows Pecharunt willingly enslaving a town seemingly just for the heck of it, it feeding its mochi to hypnotize the elderly couple into giving it more attention because it felt they "didn't love it enough", and its friends, the "Loyal" Trio, causing Ogerpon to go on a rampage because they stole her beloved masks and possibly killed her Only Friend, with Pecharunt doing nothing but be a bystander. As a result, many fans consider it a Jerkass Woobie at best, or completely unsympathetic at worst.

Given Pecharunt is still meant to be a villain, I'm not sure how unintentional it is. I recalled this analysis of it:

In short, the analysis points out numerous aspects/inconsistency with the games to argue it's an Unreliable Narrator giving Pecharunt's biased account. On the other hand, that this possible Fan Wank is required to address those issues is argument for potential UU.

I asked the Pokemon forum and seen arguments both ways (it was intended as in the wrong despite such as a villain, or genuinely too childish to have known better). Thoughts on what to do?

BlastVision Since: Feb, 2021
#2636: Oct 29th 2024 at 1:08:18 PM

[up] Can't comment on Pecharunt since I never played the DLC, but regarding Paul:

I should point out there seems to be a certain amount of Mandela Effect in play with DP because I've seen multiple people over the years complain about characters (most notably Cynthia) allegedly defending Paul's style as "just different", even though this never actually happened. I've been considering adding that to DP's YMMV page for a while.

To answer your first question, though, I think Paul might fall closer to Never Live It Down than Ron the Death Eater as he was genuinely a huge jerk in canon; his controversy comes more from how other characters responded to him rather than fans making him meaner than he really was.

But that also brings us back to my original point, that none of this really relates to UU in the first place. Debates about Paul aren't about his sympathy, they're about his karma.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#2637: Oct 29th 2024 at 6:08:52 PM

[up]That is listed in YMMV.Pokemon The Series Diamond And Pearl under Common Knowledge that Cynthia defended him as opposed to a more subtle calling out. If it best fits that, Mandela Effect, and/or Never Live It Down sound like a question for other threads, but I [tup] removing his UU entry if factually incorrect.

As for pertaining to UU:

  • Might Informed Wrongness for Ash be better as he was meant to be wrong for not using the more subtle/constructive criticisms of other despite Paul's actions being closer to the level that the show portrayed as justifiable to be so upset at?
  • Is this precedent for cutting examples that were once seen as such by fans but no longer are?
  • Never thought about the difference be sympathy and karma. I might have some other example to bring here over this.

6f5e4d Since: Mar, 2019
#2638: Oct 30th 2024 at 4:07:50 AM

Part of this also may have to do with a statement allegedly spoken by Atsuhiro Tomioka where he claimed to have grown fond of Paul, which fans used to claim that he was letting his favoritism dumb down other characters. But I do not know where this was originally cited.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2639: Oct 30th 2024 at 7:31:07 AM

x3 [up] I’d say Pechruant should stay given there isn’t enough evidence to say we should doubt an offical video

Though I am questioning keeping Nemona, I was neutral on keeping her but rereading the entry I feel it either needs a removal or rewrite, as it doenst explain WHY people finding hercreepy and why that reaction would be unintentional that well. After all, we previously removed Serena’s anime entry for coming off as character bashing

—-

  • Nemona's single-mindedness in wanting the Player Character to become her rival and equal stems from her fixation on battling coupled with becoming a Champion rank trainer at a young age alienating her from her peers, resulting in Nemona lacking friends and feeling lonely until the player character comes along. While most players sympathize with her, others interpret her obsessiveness with the player character as creepy and pushy. It doesn't help that her backstory isn't discussed in depth until the post-game, while Arven and Penny's backgrounds are the central focus of two of the main storylines; for some people, Nemona's background beyond being a battle-happy strong trainer being revealed in post-game comes too late to salvage their impression of her, resulting in Nemona becoming one of the generations most defining Base-Breaking Characters and another example of a Friendly Rival done badly, like others before her (such as Hau and Hop).

Edited by Mariofan99 on Oct 30th 2024 at 10:32:38 AM

6f5e4d Since: Mar, 2019
#2640: Oct 30th 2024 at 1:19:10 PM

It could be rewritten to cut how it compares her to other rivals, focusing only on how she is obsessive about battling in a way that seems forceful, and how since her story isn't mentioned earlier enough, fans have a harder time sympathizing with her. Of course, this pushiness is likely only really forceful if the player is rushing through the story, if they take their time, all those comments may get spaced out enough to not really be noticeable.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2641: Oct 30th 2024 at 2:05:00 PM

[up] Haven’t played SV so I wouldn’t know how to rewrite it

Perentie Since: Nov, 2010
#2642: Oct 30th 2024 at 2:52:57 PM

I argue it be cut, given the info about Nemona's character is meant to give her some more depth and explain why she values her rivalry with the player character so much, but the story never presents her battle mania as a serious problem, more just a quirk that sometimes annoys people. I don't think you're expected to view her negatively and then feel sympathy later. Basically you're expected to like Nemona early on, she befriends you, teaches you, vouches for you to help you get certain perks early, etc.

Edited by Perentie on Oct 30th 2024 at 2:56:04 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#2643: Oct 30th 2024 at 2:57:11 PM

Right, that's the point; many fans don't like Nemona early on.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
BlastVision Since: Feb, 2021
#2644: Oct 30th 2024 at 3:17:59 PM

@Ferot_Dreadnaught: Not too sold on Informed Wrongness, Ash's anger toward Chimchar's abuse/release was definitely portrayed as justified. Again, I feel like it's a big misconception from fans that the show was defending Paul prior to his humbling; multiple characters called out his attitude with varying levels of harshness, but the only one that got through to him was Brandon.

The whole thing's kind of a unique situation as Paul was one of the only (non-villainous) Pokemon abusers to be more than a Static One-Shot Character. At the moment, I don't think there's any trope that can cover this debate outside of Broken Base.

AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#2645: Oct 30th 2024 at 3:23:35 PM

[up] I have nothing to add but that I agree.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2646: Oct 30th 2024 at 3:42:49 PM

[up] [up]so a Broken Base entry in addition to Paul’s current BBC entry or does the BBC entry mentioning how detractors are unwilling to forgive Paul count?

As for Nemona does unintentionally annoying count as unintentionally unsympathetic?

Edited by Mariofan99 on Oct 30th 2024 at 6:43:19 AM

GoofyLuffyMan I am actually a manatee from a Yellow Submarine (Pilot) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
I am actually a manatee
#2647: Nov 1st 2024 at 1:24:44 PM

Found this entry under YMMV.Chicken Little 2005

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic:
    • Buck is presented as a desperate father coping with the loss of his wife and trying to do what's best for his anxiety-ridden son despite his unpopularity, which is hardly shown at all. What he mostly comes off as is a neglectful bum who will only come to his son's aid when it seems to benefit him, openly states that he's embarrassed by his son's actions when his public image is at risk, and initially tries to keep his distance from him while never standing up for him when the townspeople harshly dump on Chicken Little. The only time where he seems to try to understand his son is at the end when the aliens show up, which at that point, viewers deemed his actions in this movie unforgiveable.
    • After watching Chicken Little get bullied by the townfolk for most of the movie, many viewers couldn't feel sorry for them getting vaporized by the aliens.

I'm fine with Buck's entry, fuck that guy. But the entry for the townfolk feels really petty and outright callous, like they apparently deserved to die just for being jerks (incluing children who probably didn't know any better), which is especially jarring since this page also acknowledges that Foxy Loxy's fate was Karmic Overkill. Should this entry be cut?

Edited by GoofyLuffyMan on Nov 1st 2024 at 1:25:09 AM

When a hero uses underhanded tactics in battle, they're "smart". But when a villain does it, they're a "coward". Is this the society we live in?
generation81 Since: Aug, 2021
#2648: Nov 1st 2024 at 1:29:41 PM

The latter is more Rooting for the Empire.

Which alrrady hs an entry on the page.

Edited by generation81 on Nov 1st 2024 at 4:30:27 AM

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2649: Nov 6th 2024 at 10:23:33 AM

So what should we do about Nemona

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#2650: Nov 10th 2024 at 11:01:36 AM

I found this on YMMV.The Substance

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: How sympathetic you find Elisabeth depends heavily on whether you find her pathological need for admiration a pitiable case of mental illness or pure narcissism. Elisabeth's birthday is undeniably horrific (overhears vile things about herself from a boss who's betraying a promise not to fire her, then unceremoniously fired from a long-term job with not much in the way of transferrable skills, then involved in a terrifying car crash) but there are a number of things about her situation that may make fans struggle to treat her as a tragic victim:
    • The position she is left in (more attractive and financially secure at 50 than most people will be at ''any'' point in their lives) is still one that many viewers would envy and gives her plenty of opportunity to enjoy life.
    • Very little is shown of her earlier life, so there is never any indication that she was groomed or manipulated into the Horrible Hollywood life when she was too young to know any better, or that her apparent lack of a romantic or social life is anything other than the result of her own choices.
    • When the Substance gives her a more youthful body, she willingly throws herself back into the objectifying and ruthless industry that she feels betrayed by, rather than choosing to use her miraculous second chance to do things differently.
    • Most damningly, the insistence from the man on the phone (who is consistently shown to be honest, if callous, about the effects of the Substance) that Elisabeth and "Sue" are the same person indicates that all of "Sue's" worst traits (attention-craving, self-pity, contemptuous ingratitude, general lack of self-control, and, eventually ruthless predation and homicidal rage without even the pragmatism to remember that she needs Elisabeth alive and cooperative) are actually Elisabeth's.
    • Even if Sue is treated as a completely separate person, then Elisabeth is still somebody who responds to her initial situation by not even seriously trying to find other work or find some new source of meaning in her life (even the date she accepts from a non-Abhorrent Admirer only comes about due to a chance encounter that she promptly forgets about) and then responds to her worsening situation by spitefully creating disgusting messes for Sue to deal with (also with no thoughts about how provoking Sue could backfire on her).

Is it okay if I rewrite this? I don't really care if she counts are not (I thought that this was all intentional, but I could be wrong), but I am reasonably sure that this could all be one entry.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

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