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Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

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The criteria for Unintentionally Unsympathetic says:

"When a character's supposed insecurities or embarrassing quirks are supposed to inspire sympathy, but fail to impress the audience because they're mishandled or plain written badly. It can be made even worse if they have to learn a lesson. Without being at least somewhat invested in the characters, the audience might have passed the point of caring when the character finally comes around."

This is the basic criteria of the trope. There is more after but I am not sure what was present from the start and what was edited in afterwords to expand the definition. This trope is becoming more popular, with the page starting to be split-off into sub pages and such. And like all popular YMMV tropes this is causing an influx of bad examples that are probably just one-sided complaining, shoehorning, and bashing which is not in the spirit of this wiki. You can see this is causing issues just by looking at the pages discussion thread. I felt that the trope needed a dedicated cleanup thread. This way edits can be done without causing edit wars and getting people banned.

Some guidelines if a character or event is Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

1. It has to be unintentional on the authors part. It is in the title. All examples that were intentional on the author's part are disqualified by definition.

2. The example should state exactly why the author or narrative intended the subject to have been sympathetic and why it failed to resonate with the audience. If the example can not clearly state these two points, it is a bad example and needs to at minimum be rewritten.

3. Neutral tone: No insults. I know it is fun to complain about stuff but complaining is not in the spirit of the wiki. So long as one side isn't promoting hate speech examples should be written without taking a side. Examples that are heavily favoring one side or insulting the other side are probably not valid examples.

4. There should be a wide accepted disagreement between the audience and the author to be a valid example. By that I mean that there should be large consensus in the audience disagreeing with the author over why the character is unsympathetic instead of sympathetic. If the audience is too divided and one section thinks agrees with the author and the other doesn't, the example could be a pet peeve of a single person, which isn’t noteworthy.

Lastly, always consider Square Peg, Round Trope and be mindful if the example may fit better under a different trope such as Base-Breaking Character, Broken Base, and The Scrappy. Please visit other cleanup threads if you have questions about tropes that do not involve Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

Feel free to help if you spot some bad examples or can point out more rules for the trope. Or argue with me over the definitions, this is a cleanup thread after all.

MOD NOTICE: As of October 26, 2022, this thread now covers Unintentionally Sympathetic as well.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 26th 2022 at 8:15:48 AM

Echidna from Ontario, Canada (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Two-timing
#2601: Sep 7th 2024 at 5:26:52 PM

[up]I feel this one needs to go.

StrixObscuro from Somewhere in Massachusetts Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
#2602: Sep 8th 2024 at 9:56:35 PM

Came across this in Ballerina:

Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Félicie crosses into Designated Hero territory for some viewers due to the fact that she only is able to enter ballet school through identity fraud, is somehow not expelled once this fact gets exposed (though she does have a close brush with it later on, albeit due to the standard elimination process more than anything), and ultimately is the one who gets to perform in The Nutcracker despite all the other girls in the school having actually gotten accepted into the school on merit and having likely worked longer and harder than Félicie did.

Emphasis mine. Aren't these tropes supposed to be based on the majority opinion of the fandom, rather than just what "some viewers" think?

By now, it should be clear to all except the most dense of us that sheep are secretly conspiring to kill us all and steal our pants.
Super_Weegee Since: Feb, 2019
#2603: Sep 9th 2024 at 2:00:02 AM

[up]I don’t recall that being a requirement on the trope’s page. It’s YMMV for a reason.

Edited by Super_Weegee on Sep 9th 2024 at 5:00:28 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#2604: Sep 9th 2024 at 2:06:11 AM

Normally we try to trope wide opinion. Not necessarily majority ones. I guess my question is how big is this "some". It like a few individuals or is like a large but not necessarily a huge group on Tumblr or Reddit. The latter is what we aim for usually. Otherwise, I have never heard of this film and can't help.

Edited by Bullman on Sep 9th 2024 at 4:06:58 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
StrixObscuro from Somewhere in Massachusetts Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
#2605: Sep 9th 2024 at 7:50:10 PM

[up] I have not seen the movie either, so I have no idea of the size of its fanbase, but a cursory look at Tumblr (and a cursory look at the edit history for the YMMV page) suggests that this was one troper's opinion.

By now, it should be clear to all except the most dense of us that sheep are secretly conspiring to kill us all and steal our pants.
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#2606: Sep 12th 2024 at 4:59:53 PM

From YMMV.Dustborn

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Pax is an unusual example since she's a protagonist in a very complex choice-based game and is shaped by both kind or cruel choices, with none of the choices or her ending Codas being considered canon. The game acknowledges how harmful it is to use Vox powers on friend and foe alike and Pax admits her own powers can only hurt, which means Pax is intended to be unsympathetic if she lashes out at her allies or chooses to abuse her powers like a sociopath, especially when it comes to the more harmful Vocals like "Trigger," "Bully," "Discord," and "Cancel." However, even if the player tries to pick kinder choices and minimize the use of Vox, there are some situations where Pax is forced to use Vox to progress the story. The game wants to paint these actions as a last resort, but the harm caused in these situations, especially in Fred's case, can make Pax come off as an actual menace to society rather than an ostracized victim. The game also does a pretty poor job of conveying that Pax's less moral actions are a character flaw, making it seem like it's actually endorsing her more sociopathic behavior.

So, I have no idea what this entry is saying. It says that she is mean to be unsympathic if she uses and then continues on. Like this does not sound like an example of this trope and reads more like a complaint about the game. I have never actually played this game but this entry just read weird to me and I wanted some opinions.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Providence25 Since: Feb, 2023
#2607: Sep 12th 2024 at 7:39:26 PM

I was thinking of adding Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry for Verosika (and the partygoers) (not sure if they should be put in one entry or be separated) in 'Apology Tour' but had to run it by this thread:

Verosika. While Blitzo is definitely not a saint by any means, some fans found the 'F*ck Blitzo' party Verosika hosts to be yet another glaring example of how spiteful and petty she was, taking it Up To Eleven by getting together every single person Blitz slept with/dated solely to destroy effigies of and sh*tting on him, as well as selling merch of the same thing (a glaring example being a 'Blitzo KYS' shirt). Some even argue that hosting a party would actually do MORE harm than good for the partygoers in the long run, despite what Verosika claims.

The partygoers were meant to be portrayed as people Blitzo had hurt, and while it is made clear Blitz had really hurt these people, a few issues arises: One of the partygoers is revealed to be Dennis, the imp from 'Queen Bee', whose Blitz's only interaction with him was drunkenly making out with him and pushing him away because his name was 'Dennis', far from an actual relationship, which only brings into question how many of the partygoers were people who actually loved Blitzo and were spurned by him or was just a one-night stand (which is hardly a justification to go to a party to hate the guy). Not to mention we are given little to no information on what Blitzo had done to most of the partygoers, outside a few Noodle Incident when Blitz first came to the party, making it hard to gauge how many of these people are rightfully justified in hating Blitzo, or is being just as petty as Verosika. In the end, to some viewers, the party comes off less as a deep look into how Blitzo had hurt people around him, and more beating the viewer over the head that 'Blitzo is a terrible person' (which everyone is more than aware of at this point)

I know it's a bit wordy and I might get things a bit wrong, but I have seen people voice their displeasure about Verosika and the party many times throughout the net, and I wanted to try and voice why people feel that way.

If anyone wants to dissect or try and word it better, feel free.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#2608: Sep 20th 2024 at 1:31:16 PM

[up]Ask Hellaverse Cleanup to see if it's a widespread enough opinion to count.

Also, thoughts on revising this entry from YMMV.My Little Pony Equestria Girls Forgotten Friendship?

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Wallflower Blush was supposed to be sympathetic due to years of resenting being ignored and forgotten boiling over when Sunset Shimmer's disregard made them think Sunset was undeserving of her redemption and popularity. But aside from her introduction where it's unclear how hard she tried, Wallflower was never shown trying to get noticed, and admitted to erasing embarrassing memories of herself making their problems seem self-inflicted. Sunset was never any more guilty of disregarding them than the rest of the school, causing some to go so far as to compare singling out Sunset, then her friends, out for random revenge with a dangerous item to a school shooting. %%Entry approved at https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15194292110A03429900&page=9#comment-211 Don't edit without approval
  1. I intend to add that their Shrinking Violet traits that could/presumably were meant to give a sympathetic reason for not trying to get noticed were an Informed Flaw, contributing to the problem.
  2. Thoughts about adding a Realism-Induced Horror pothole to the "a school shooting" to explain why critic judges much more harshly than intended? Are the means they used too fantastical to count and the matter/comparison too ROCEJ? (It's only there because it was a direct and common comparison by critics.)
  3. Should any the spoiler tags, at least for their identity, be removed as it's a It Was His Sled Captain Obvious Reveal (they're the one newley introduced fleshed out character so The Law of Conservation of Detail dictates…)?

Bugfragged Since: Nov, 2012
#2609: Sep 30th 2024 at 9:28:42 AM

[up][up][up] @Bullman:

Regarding Dustborn, the entry on that page is the result of an edit war. The original entry basically ignored the choice system and acted like only the bad choices represented Pax, and this led to an edit war that made the entry less coherent. I tried to emphasize the difference between the optional and mandatory events where Pax goes too far in using her powers, but that was a bad move on my part because it made the entry sound even more confusing. Since the ending has Pax change her mind about how to use her powers, it's probably for the best that the entry gets cut entirely.

Edited by Bugfragged on Sep 30th 2024 at 9:30:48 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#2610: Sep 30th 2024 at 4:28:46 PM

[up] Oh that makes more sense now. Either way, if she changes her mind, it probably is best to cut it.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2611: Oct 9th 2024 at 5:35:49 AM

Recently the Pokémon page had the entire for Iris (anime), Nemona, and Penny deleted under the argument that acting snarky isn’t equal to bullying and Nemona’s entry came off as complaining about finding her annoying

I can see the argument for keeping Nemona deleted but I feel Iris and maybe Penny should be re-added

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=UnintentionallyUnsympathetic.Pokemon&page=7#edit42076435

Edited by Mariofan99 on Oct 9th 2024 at 8:36:00 AM

Someguy3353 Since: Oct, 2024
#2612: Oct 9th 2024 at 6:05:08 AM

I was the one who deleted the entries. I felt that my first action on this site would be to cut some entries I don't think qualify.

Someguy3353 Since: Oct, 2024
#2613: Oct 9th 2024 at 6:50:37 AM

Also you didn't bring much of a counter argument to me deleting these entries.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2614: Oct 10th 2024 at 7:23:11 AM

I can’t speak the best on Penny as I’ve yet to play SV, but as for Iris we’ve had to rewrite her a few times, and as the current entry points out her teasing for Ash is meant to be compensating for her lack of self-confidence and friends, yet many viewers feel the teasing occurs too often or is too mean-spirited to excuse how Iris treats ash (and I say this as a fan of her)

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#2615: Oct 12th 2024 at 12:52:00 PM

At YMMV.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic S 9 E 12 The Last Crusade

  • Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Shutter Snap and Mane Allgood were supposed to care for Scootaloo despite being away for so long due to work to the point of missing most of her accomplishments. But since we've never seen Scootaloo with caretakers until this episode, and even they're not there full time (as seen in "Flight to the Finish", where there's no guardian in sight, and as stated in the episode due to their living outside of town) and according to the novel they debuted in only recently started, it seemed they effectively abandoned her. ("Parental Glideance" already confirmed that Scootaloo has confidence issues due to a lack of support at home.) Their worry over Sombra's recent attack is undermined by the numerous other times the locals have been endangered over the eight previous seasons, the movie, and semi-canon Expanded Universe works without their apparent concern. That and when they're first introduced, one of the first things they do is accidentally release a dangerous animal into the Ponyville schoolhouse. This caused many fans, some of whom questioned why they'd have a child if they'd be too busy for them, to think they crossed forgivably flawed to straight neglect.
This just describes Parental Neglect, which the episode itself calls them out for, and they are antagonists of the episode. I don't think this is unintentional.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Bugfragged Since: Nov, 2012
#2616: Oct 15th 2024 at 11:53:10 AM

In YMMV.ChainedEchoes

I think this entry should be cut. The game has Kylian's betrayals all backfire on him and accomplish nothing, mainly so that he provides a contrast to actual compelling antivillainous characters like Gwayn. Glenn himself also calls out Kylian on being too ambitious and ruthless even before Kylian betrays the party. In his very last betrayal, Kylian is portrayed not as a sympathetic mastermind, but as a desperate and jealous man grabbing at straws to prove himself worthy of power, only for the Vaen to turn that power against him. While many (including me) thought he got off too easily in the ending, Kylian himself admits that he doesn't believe he deserves a second chance and he's mostly taking it to honor Glenn's wishes rather than the game portraying him as truly worthy of it.

Edited by Bugfragged on Oct 15th 2024 at 1:13:19 AM

EmperorGeode from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
#2617: Oct 16th 2024 at 1:54:50 PM

Found this on Bakugan YMMV.

  • Unintentionally Sympathetic: Hydron. He might act like a spoiled brat, but at the end of the day, he's still just a lonely teenager who was repeatedly abused by the very person that was supposed to care for him.

It has been a while since I watched it, but I remember that abuse he suffers under his father was given fair bit of depth and by the end pulls Redemption Equals Death while taking his father with him. Also from what I remember he got a lot less bratty after first third of the season (which is when said father is introduced).

Edited by EmperorGeode on Oct 16th 2024 at 1:58:30 AM

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2618: Oct 18th 2024 at 5:28:22 AM

So should Iris and Penny be re-added to the Pokémon page?

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#2619: Oct 20th 2024 at 12:55:40 PM

[up]Restore Iris as the Pokemon forums previously agreed to that entry (thoughts on replace the "unfair bullying" part with "unfairly one-sided"?) and Nemona. Penny didn't explain how she was supposed to by sympathetic, so keep cut unless anyone's able to add that part.

As for Scootaloo's parents, the UU is due to a seeming majority of fans seeing their negligence as beyond/worse than what's acknowledged in-work/they're called out on as it's only just now near the very end of the 9 year long series they:

  • Come up with a proper/permanent living arrangement for Scootaloo (seemingly very recently as this is the first episode acknowledging it)
  • The first time they return out of concern despite the dozens of similar threats that happened before.

I've seen many critics who felt they'd be sympathetic as intended if they showed up and addressed these issues sooner before they got so much working against them.

It's a Broken Base issue that I agree ignores mitigating context (Scootaloo accepting they had a good reason for their absent despite the issues it caused until this episode which was caused by their being Locked Out of the Loop as opposed to negligence), but enough feel this was that, unless specific counterarguments are made against the above two points being factually incorrect/acknowledged and called out by the work, UU is valid.

Maybe this is also/instead Fan-Disliked Explanation (disappointing those who thought Scootaloo was orphaned/abandoned/abused while disappointing those who wanted her to have a functional home life)?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Oct 20th 2024 at 1:07:45 AM

Perentie Since: Nov, 2010
#2620: Oct 21st 2024 at 7:15:53 PM

Regarding Nemona, I always thought she was one of the most beloved characters in Scarlet and Violet, and certainly not a bad example of a friendly rival. What is the criteria for there being enough of a negative reaction to qualify for inclusion?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#2621: Oct 21st 2024 at 7:20:24 PM

I personally found her bland and annoying, but was she meant to be sympathetic? Like, is there anything about her that you're expected to feel sorry for?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
BlastVision Since: Feb, 2021
#2622: Oct 22nd 2024 at 11:09:45 PM

On the subject of Pokémon:

Paul was not a sympathetic character per se, but his character was defended and his strength as a trainer was praised on the principle of respecting those with different opinions, as Paul would eventually come to do himself — but before he finally got there, Paul routinely failed to respect different opinions by disrespecting those who disagreed with him or failed to live up to his expectations, and "different opinions" was no justification for his punishing treatment and abandonment of Chimchar for being weak (which has happened before in the series, but when it did it was treated unquestionably as the point the perpetrator was considered Beyond Redemption). The ostensible catalyst for Paul's redemption — his loss to Brandon and discovery that Ash had beaten him — had its effect weakened by Paul defeating Ash in a rematch almost immediately after. In the end, even if there was something to be said for Paul's ideas of how to train Pokémon, the show went beyond that and routinely tried to insist Paul was respectable when he generally wasn't.

Doesn't sit right with me as Paul's actions leading up to Chimchar's release are pretty indisputably shown as unsympathetic. Even if the point was hypothetically framed around his actions being "too much" to forgive post-Character Development, that doesn't sound like UU as he's very rarely framed in any sympathetic light.

I also think it's a misconception in general that the characters or narrative were defending Paul's style as respectable; I've rewatched a lot of these episodes and if anything, most characters actually side with Ash in their arguments, especially when it comes to Paul's attitude. The "defense" in question comes near-exclusively from his battle results and the moral conflict that arises from that, but even then the series deconstructs a lot of his actions and rarely sides with him outside of a select few areas (at least until after his Character Development, that is).

Edited by BlastVision on Oct 22nd 2024 at 2:14:16 PM

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#2623: Oct 23rd 2024 at 5:01:16 AM

[up] it’s been forever since i watched DP but can anybody cite any specific scenes of Paul being praised and if they had full context for his actions. IIRC Ash, Dawn, Brock, Team Rocket, the Nurse Joy of Hearthome City, and MAYBE Reggie were the only people who ever knew how Paul treated Chimchar

BlastVision Since: Feb, 2021
#2624: Oct 23rd 2024 at 12:35:15 PM

[up] Yeah, they didn't. The most notable examples of people praising Paul's skills were Barry, Cynthia, and Brandon, but none of them had proper context on what he was really doing to Chimchar; the closest we got to that was Cynthia, but she was never shown the full extent of it and was actually opposed to what little she saw regardless.

The series never frames Paul as if he just had a different approach than Ash, at least until after he got humbled by Brandon. If anything, most characters were either neutral or tried to get Paul to change his attitude (e.g. Cynthia ordering he get his Pokemon treated, Nurse Joy insisting he let Chimchar rest). It's just that none of them but Brandon were successful.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!

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