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Base Breaking Character Cleanup

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The Broken Base cleanup thread discusses about examples in Broken Base, but this talks about examples in YMMV pages of works containing Base-Breaking Character, (despite being an Example Sectionectomy, this can still be seen in the YMMV pages of works) where the details on what is suitable is also vague.

Here is the criteria for Base-Breaking Character:

  • A long-term, sustained conflict: Characters that were simply hated and loved, then had their interest evaporated away (both positive and negative) after a few months doesn't count. Characters in upcoming works also don't count.
  • A vicious conflict: Factions that have little problem co-existing and doesn't mind about what the other faction likes or dislikes about the character doesn't count. If it's not particularly vicious and heated, then it would be cut or be listed as a Downplayed Trope.
  • Two (or more) vocal, almost equally sized factions: A tiny Vocal Minority that doesn't shut up their pet peeve, whilst being outnumbered by more reasonable fans don't count. Nor does a Silent Majority who doesn't make a big deal with the other side count. If one of the hating factions is significantly bigger than the other, it would be classified as The Scrappy or an Ensemble Dark Horse.
  • Little to no Middle ground: Scenarios where most of the fandom doesn't care about the character, don't count.

Base-Breaking Character is when half of the fandom likes a character, yet another equally sized half dislikes it. Now that happens, but the problem is, some entries aren't really contentious (thus not resulting in flame wars when someone says they "liked that character"). Also, several entries are one-sided towards the negative or the positive side describing that only side in detail, but then wrapping up with a single line saying "But the other half likes that character". A correct way would be describing it like "a split in the Fandom on who likes it or not", with details on both sides why they're liked and disliked.

Here's an example from YMMV.Undertale:

* Base-Breaking Character:
  • Alphys. A lot of players find her character gimmick of constant messages and attempts to help more annoying than funny, especially on repeat playthroughs. And even though she has sympathetic reasons, the reveal that she's been experimenting on sick monsters to create the Amalgamates and manipulating the player to feel better about herself doesn't help, especially since she never directly apologizes for the latter.

While it may have annoyed players due to these reasons above, there has been a considerable amount of fanarts and comics or her, and not only that, the like-dislike situation hasn't been so contentious (compared to Sans, whom he's popular, now he sucks.)

edited 21st Feb '18 1:46:31 PM by AppleGates

RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#1251: May 19th 2023 at 5:51:50 PM

[up]I agree with cutting the ones that fall under Americans Hate Tingle since that's a Sub-Trope (or at least according to the foremost page) and removing Max since he's too disliked from what I've seen. I'm not sure about the others, though.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1252: May 20th 2023 at 11:04:37 AM

Bonnie and Zoey are the main ones Im struggling to figure out if they're divisive enough to count as Base-Breaking

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#1253: May 20th 2023 at 12:09:58 PM

[up] Bonnie's a shoehorn. Zoey is probably also one, but I'm not as familiar with her so Idk for sure.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1254: May 20th 2023 at 12:30:28 PM

I dint think people care enough about bonnie for her to be divisive.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1255: May 20th 2023 at 4:06:35 PM

[up][up] I know I’ve seen people upset that Dawn never managed to beat her but I don’t know how much of a character specific i complaint that is. And I always got the impression Zoey was liked more overall

Are there any other characters you feel are shoehorned be or form any category? Or any assessment you disagree with

molokai198 Since: Oct, 2012
#1256: Jun 2nd 2023 at 4:23:27 PM

Looking at the Base-Breaking Character page for Homestuck having never actually read it, I am a little confused by why exactly this action is controversial:

"This only became worse when a sober Gamzee beat Terezi in response to her stabbing him, even after she started apologizing; while many still don't see sober Gamzee as the "real" Gamzee due to the mind control theory, the Domestic Abuse crossed the line for many fans to ever care about him."

Without the context of reading the webcomic, I don't understand why beating someone who just stabbed you would be considered Domestic Abuse rather than a reasonable reaction. Does he have super durability such that stabbing him doesn't really hurt him? Was the stabbing an accident? Otherwise this just sounds like Double Standard: Abuse, Female on Male.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1257: Jun 3rd 2023 at 9:02:38 AM

[up] I haven’t read it myself but based on the context it sounds like the person who stabbed did it accidently while drunk and the person who got stabbed kept attacking back even after the other apologized. Iif I’m reading it right I could see why that’s controversial espically if it’s Played for Laughs like the double standard trope implies

nanakiro Since: Feb, 2011
#1258: Jun 3rd 2023 at 2:31:20 PM

As a person who read Homestuck, I can kinda parse why: Gamzee and Terezi I think were in a relationship at the time. But their specific kind of relationship was supposed to be a Dating Catwoman sort of romance based on mutual rivalry and hatred; their relationship broke down into mutual toxicity the longer it went on, and Gamzee's actions here are supposed to be part of where he crosses the line from an even rivalry to one-sided abuse.

As for why they got into that relationship, it's a whole thing for their species in the comics where romance is split into four types (but not The Four Loves), with that kind being basically toeing the line on enemies-to-lovers. That's as far as I'm going to say, because it gets pretty complicated.

Edited by nanakiro on Jun 3rd 2023 at 2:32:08 AM

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1259: Jun 3rd 2023 at 6:42:46 PM

As a Homestuck fan, Gamzee beating Terezi was very controversial, and the comic depicts Gamzee as partly responsible for Terezi's mental decline. It's one of the biggest things Gamzee fans and haters clash over.

I don't remember why she stabbed him but the way it's framed in-comic does resemble Domestic Abuse and is treated as such. They have a kind of relationship for their species that involves equal-footed fighting as a form of bonding, and like nanakiro said, it's implied to cross into a one-sided unhealthy dynamic. From the wiki:

At the end of the Game Over timeline Terezi confronted Gamzee and when he wouldn't fight back she broke down crying, asking him why NOW OF 4LL T1M3S YOU C4N'T BR1NG YOURS3LF TO R4ISE 4 H4ND TO M3, which suggests that in addition to the clear emotional abuse on Gamzee's side their relationship may have been physically abusive as well. She does seem to be fairly afraid of him, dropping her cane swords and shakily apologizing for attacking him after Aranea's mind control wears off and he asks her to stop.

[down] x5 FWIW I joined the fandom in like 2014, and while Gamzee was already a BBC, the Terezi incident came up a lot in discourse after that scene, and I'm pretty sure it's why people (and later the comic) characterize him as an abusive misogynist.

Edited by mightymewtron on Jun 16th 2023 at 11:49:50 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WiryAiluropodine Since: Sep, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1260: Jun 4th 2023 at 12:28:38 AM

Found this on the YMMV page for Haven.

  • Broken Base: Charlotte, Audrey/Mara's mother, caused this with her general demeanor as well as her treatment of her daughter. She's the one who sent her fighting the troubles in Haven, as it should have provided a cure both to her daughter, who was turning into a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds at the time, and the townspeople of Haven, whom she'd wronged. Too bad it came at the price of Mind Rape on a previously innocent woman who was severely traumatized and shortly became much worse because of it, undoing part of the good she'd meant to do. Add to that the fact that while purely well-intentionned, hard-working brave and brainy, she's also manipulative, condescending and an adept practitioner of the Mercy Kill, and you have one of the most controversial characters in the series.

Not sure if this was actually meant to be a Base-Breaking Character edit, but I'm not 100% if it qualifies for that trope or the trope it's actually listed under, given that it seems pretty one-sided in its opinion of Charlotte. Does the edit need a rewrite, or should it perhaps be classified under Unintentionally Unsympathetic, given that the edit largely points out reasons fans have to dislike her, rather than bringing up any reasons why some would defend her (or, at the very least, not view her as harshly as those who outright hate her? Keep in mind, I just found out about the show, so, if a rewrite was deemed necessary, I likely wouldn't be much help there.

Edited by WiryAiluropodine on Jun 5th 2023 at 5:30:26 AM

RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#1261: Jun 4th 2023 at 12:35:21 AM

[up]If she really is as controversial as the entry suggests she is, then I feel the example could be reworked into a Base-Breaking Character one. However, as it stands, she sounds more like Unintentionally Unsympathetic because it sounds like she's supposed to be sympathetic but isn't. Either way, this currently doesn't like an example of Broken Base to me.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1262: Jun 4th 2023 at 3:16:39 AM

Something I’ve been wondering about the page for https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/BaseBreakingCharacter/Pokemon is should we change the organization at all now that ash is no longer the main character? If any main character from horizons or a later series qualifies how would we add them? Under main cast? Or should we delete that folder and add ash to his companion list, team Rocket to the villians, and Pikachu to the Pokémon?

SharkToast Since: Mar, 2013
#1263: Jun 8th 2023 at 3:23:29 AM

I found this under Alternative Character Interpretation on Pitch Perfect, but this reads more as an example of Base-Breaking Character:

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#1264: Jun 8th 2023 at 9:33:19 AM

Also for more context on the Homestuck example, Gamzee was immortal at the time. He couldn't die. The stabbing hurt him, but he would recover really fast. It was also seen as abusive because he lucidly asks Terezi to stop stabbing him because she's hurting him, then when she broke down and apologized he went into a total rage and beat her into a bloody pulp.

That being said I think he was a Base-Breaking Character long before that moment; he'd cold-bloodedly murdered two beloved characters years before that arc (with one murder being depicted in a disturbing Fetishized Abuser way).

Edited by PhiSat on Jun 8th 2023 at 10:37:04 AM

Oissu!
molokai198 Since: Oct, 2012
#1265: Jun 9th 2023 at 2:37:45 PM

It would be cool if someone who has read Homestuck could edit the entry so it explains why, as people have explained in the previous posts, Gamzee being stabbed wouldn't be as much of a justified provocation as it seems without context, for the benefit of people like me who haven't read it.

Berrenta Bejeweled (she/her) (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Bejeweled (she/her)
#1266: Jun 16th 2023 at 8:35:09 PM

Removed from YMMV.F Zero GP Legend for being primarily one-sided (was here for What Measure Is a Non-Badass? TRS)

Edited by Berrenta on Jun 16th 2023 at 10:36:44 AM

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#1268: Jun 18th 2023 at 3:27:40 AM

this example was removed with the reason that Usopp doesn't "have equal amount of haters and lovers and generate heated debates", and that's Vocal Minority. But the entry doesn't mention Vocal Minority and the example mentions consistent division in the fanbase? Chatting in edit reasons aside.

Edited by Amonimus on Jun 18th 2023 at 1:27:54 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
WiryAiluropodine Since: Sep, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1269: Jun 28th 2023 at 3:43:05 AM

Found this on the YMMV page for Far Cry: New Dawn;

  • Base-Breaking Character: Joseph Seed. While a closure to his story is necessary, newcomers and even returning players feel that the supernatural elements are out of place when faced against the survival and fighting band of raiders elements of the story.

I'm also certain that it's misuse, given that it only presents one side of the debate, and the edit isn't even largely focused on Joseph as a character; instead bringing up people's issues with his storyline and the plot as a whole, which, if it presented the other side of the apparent debate, would probably make it more appropriate to classify what is written here as Broken Base.

RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#1270: Jun 28th 2023 at 3:54:52 AM

[up][up]If he is as controversial as the example suggests he is, then I feel it can be brought back.

[up]If there is an opposing side to that one, I feel it counts as Broken Base. Either way, I agree he doesn't count as a Base-Breaking Character for the reasons you listed.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1271: Jul 9th 2023 at 8:11:28 AM

I found this on The Nostalgia Critic

  • Reviews Are the Gospel:
    • On This Very Wiki, the page for Cinderella (2015) listed Ella under 'Base-Breaking Character' purely because Doug didn't like her portrayal - when the character was received better by 90% of the press.

And looking on that page it looks like Ella wasn’t added to the page until Critic’s review of the film. Okay if I remove her?

Edited by Mariofan99 on Jul 9th 2023 at 11:12:28 AM

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1272: Jul 14th 2023 at 10:13:39 PM

It does specify the press, not the audience, so Critical Dissonance could be at play, but it's very likely the majority of people who watched the review either didn't watch the film or didn't like it to begin with.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1273: Jul 18th 2023 at 7:10:51 PM

[up] so remove the entry? For context here’s what’s currently written. I personally feel the entry is a bit too one sided :

  • Base-Breaking Character: Ella herself. Some argue that she's an improvement over her original counterpart, being a more realistic and well-rounded character. Others point out that she is even more passive than the original Cinderella, since she simply takes all of the abuse of her stepfamily while not showing the slightest negativity about it and actually waits for someone to save her, while the original actually made an effort to fight back and showed that she didn't like the constant abuse she suffers through. Some viewers even feel that this film tries so hard to make Cinderella flawless and happy that she fails to be interesting or relatable, pointing out how her reasoning for staying at her family's estate despite everything makes no sense along with how she simply leaves it at the end anyway. Of course, both sets of characters receiving criticisms for their level of passivity do carry uncomfortable elements of Victim-Blaming, and there are fans who like both and see them as different interpretations

Edited by Mariofan99 on Jul 18th 2023 at 10:11:30 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1274: Jul 18th 2023 at 7:15:21 PM

Yeah, that's very heavy on the bad side

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1275: Jul 19th 2023 at 7:33:02 AM

So should I cut or does anybody have rewrite ideas


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