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Base Breaking Character Cleanup

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The Broken Base cleanup thread discusses about examples in Broken Base, but this talks about examples in YMMV pages of works containing Base-Breaking Character, (despite being an Example Sectionectomy, this can still be seen in the YMMV pages of works) where the details on what is suitable is also vague.

Here is the criteria for Base-Breaking Character:

  • A long-term, sustained conflict: Characters that were simply hated and loved, then had their interest evaporated away (both positive and negative) after a few months doesn't count. Characters in upcoming works also don't count.
  • A vicious conflict: Factions that have little problem co-existing and doesn't mind about what the other faction likes or dislikes about the character doesn't count. If it's not particularly vicious and heated, then it would be cut or be listed as a Downplayed Trope.
  • Two (or more) vocal, almost equally sized factions: A tiny Vocal Minority that doesn't shut up their pet peeve, whilst being outnumbered by more reasonable fans don't count. Nor does a Silent Majority who doesn't make a big deal with the other side count. If one of the hating factions is significantly bigger than the other, it would be classified as The Scrappy or an Ensemble Dark Horse.
  • Little to no Middle ground: Scenarios where most of the fandom doesn't care about the character, don't count.

Base-Breaking Character is when half of the fandom likes a character, yet another equally sized half dislikes it. Now that happens, but the problem is, some entries aren't really contentious (thus not resulting in flame wars when someone says they "liked that character"). Also, several entries are one-sided towards the negative or the positive side describing that only side in detail, but then wrapping up with a single line saying "But the other half likes that character". A correct way would be describing it like "a split in the Fandom on who likes it or not", with details on both sides why they're liked and disliked.

Here's an example from YMMV.Undertale:

* Base-Breaking Character:
  • Alphys. A lot of players find her character gimmick of constant messages and attempts to help more annoying than funny, especially on repeat playthroughs. And even though she has sympathetic reasons, the reveal that she's been experimenting on sick monsters to create the Amalgamates and manipulating the player to feel better about herself doesn't help, especially since she never directly apologizes for the latter.

While it may have annoyed players due to these reasons above, there has been a considerable amount of fanarts and comics or her, and not only that, the like-dislike situation hasn't been so contentious (compared to Sans, whom he's popular, now he sucks.)

edited 21st Feb '18 1:46:31 PM by AppleGates

donnjpierre7 Since: Dec, 2022
#1226: May 3rd 2023 at 9:29:27 AM

Exactly why it’s ludicrous. The internet is an unreliable source of finding a BBC.

Also what do you mean “BBC does not merely equal "there are people dislike them".?

Edited by donnjpierre7 on May 3rd 2023 at 12:30:46 PM

TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#1227: May 3rd 2023 at 9:38:16 AM

In that people who for example, hate Makoto, that for sure exist, but compare it to the number of people who dislike, again, Mishima.

The complaints that Mishima recieves you probably know. Obssesive behaviour, toxic worker even after saving him from Kamoshida and those things. Which all come from Mishima.

The complaints from Makoto i've heard is that she's too popular, and her problematic "wants to be a cop" dream which i've heard that it's not a problem with the character itself cause her intentions with it are good, but more so with the writers and the big problem that "contradicting the game's lessons" that the game has.

Edited by TheWrongOne41 on May 3rd 2023 at 9:38:34 AM

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
donnjpierre7 Since: Dec, 2022
#1228: May 3rd 2023 at 9:47:48 AM

[up]Yes hype backlash but the people who aren’t fans of Makoto will often say “it’s not about popularity It’s about she’s badly written this, badly written that. and boring this, boring that.” Unless those are just excuses to say they don’t like her.

Still how can I prove a character is BBC or extremely divisive while still topping the polls? It’s almost impossible to prove it since not everyone tends to speak up about who they like and dislike.

Edited by donnjpierre7 on May 3rd 2023 at 12:54:31 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1229: May 3rd 2023 at 11:00:52 AM

Look at fandom discussion. Do people often fight about this character? Are there an equal amount of people saying "I love her" and "I hate her"? Or does it mostly swing to one side? (In this case, positive?)

No, fan discourse isn't always reliable. There may be certain fandom trends on different platforms, and some fans may simply be uninvolved in the discussion — but it's the best we can do.

If there isn't enough discussion about a character to begin with, then they definitely aren't a base breaker because if they were, people would be fighting over them.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 3rd 2023 at 2:02:01 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
donnjpierre7 Since: Dec, 2022
#1230: May 3rd 2023 at 1:02:41 PM

[up]Well again, it’s extremely difficult to tell. Especially since like I said a character can conceivably have more haters than fans but said haters can be silent about it. Heck that can be said for pretty much every other character on the internet.

Edited by donnjpierre7 on May 3rd 2023 at 4:05:49 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1231: May 3rd 2023 at 1:05:57 PM

Sure, but by definition a Base-Breaking Character is a character fans tend to have controversy over. It's not just enough to assume that there's a silent group of haters somewhere. If they don't show up we can't just claim they exist. At a certain point you have a burden of proof to prove haters do exist, not to to make us disprove it.

The criteria on the page makes it very clear: there must be conflict.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 3rd 2023 at 4:06:53 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#1233: May 3rd 2023 at 1:29:04 PM

Another thing is that most complaining involving Ryuji that I've seen isn't aimed at him. It's usually thrown at Morgana and sometimes the girls.

donnjpierre7 Since: Dec, 2022
#1234: May 3rd 2023 at 1:43:48 PM

[up]The girls? I get Morgana but what do you mean by the girls? Is it about that scene the Western fanbase loathes for how the girls treated Ryuji?

Edited by donnjpierre7 on May 3rd 2023 at 4:47:20 AM

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#1235: May 3rd 2023 at 2:13:40 PM

The scene where he shows back up after he seemingly died in Shido's Palace and gets beaten up, yes.

WiryAiluropodine Since: Sep, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1237: May 9th 2023 at 7:21:12 PM

Not sure if this has come up before, but someone added Amity to the Base-Breaking Character list for the YMMV page for the Owl House.

Problem is, the troper outright stated - in that very same edit - that Amity was largely a popular character among the fanbase, and that her detractors were - effectively - a Vocal Minority (vocal, but still far smaller than her fanbase). From what I've seen, at the very worst, her hatedom is nowhere near as bad as, say, Bakugo. This would appear to go against some of the main qualifications for a Base-Breaking Character (e.g. character must split the fanbase into at least two vocal factions of similar size).

I'm fairly certain that Amity doesn't qualify, but I wanted to just check and see if there was a chance that I'm wrong.

Edited by WiryAiluropodine on May 10th 2023 at 12:23:17 AM

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#1238: May 9th 2023 at 7:51:20 PM

[up] Not in the least. She's one of the show's most popular characters.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1239: May 9th 2023 at 7:52:56 PM

I think Amity gets Hype Backlash more than anything. I definitely have seen people call out how some fans will adore her but ignore/downplay other characters (usually POC) including Luz herself. I don't think that's majority opinion though and most people don't seem to hate her.

Could it be Amity's character arc that's base-breaking? Or am I projecting as someone who thought it needed more work?

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#1240: May 9th 2023 at 7:59:56 PM

Dunno. I thought her character arc was fine. At most, I'd chalk it up to the show taking a bit to Grow the Beard .

Edited by badtothebaritone on May 9th 2023 at 10:00:05 AM

RacattackForce (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1241: May 9th 2023 at 8:22:02 PM

I watched the show casually, and I also thought Amity's character arc was fine. She becomes less of an asshole, gets the girl, fixes her relationship with her childhood friend, and strengthens her bonds with her siblings and father. For those wondering, here's the actual example:

Despite her massive popularity, there is a Vocal Minority whose perception of Amity is influenced by her prior actions as a stuck-up Academic Alpha Bitch.

Which... I've certainly seen some people complain about Amity starting off as a bully, but it's always been more in relation to Willow's character arc, and how awkward it is that the complete repairing of Willow's friendship with Amity is put off until after Amity and Luz are already dating, and how Willow seemingly has no complicated feelings regarding that development. In any case, the example notes that it's a Vocal Minority anyway, which feels like an automatic flag for the chopping block.

Edited by RacattackForce on May 9th 2023 at 12:00:24 PM

WiryAiluropodine Since: Sep, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1242: May 9th 2023 at 11:44:35 PM

Keep in mind, that was my edit to the entry. The initial entry was laid out like this;

I edited because it sounded a bit too much like complaining. I fully understand people who were disappointed by the way Amity and/or Willow's character arcs were structured/written, but, like I mentioned, said people seem to be a vocal minority and, as the troper above mentioned, this feels more like a Broken Base issue than a Base-Breaking Character issue.

Edited by WiryAiluropodine on May 10th 2023 at 4:48:04 AM

RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#1243: May 10th 2023 at 2:00:35 AM

From what I've seen at least, Amity is too well-liked to count and this is the first time I've heard of her having a vocal amount of detractors.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#1244: May 10th 2023 at 12:28:20 PM

I think the Willow and Amity stuff better suits They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot than focusing on Amity as a character, and I presume it's already listed as such.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1245: May 15th 2023 at 6:48:01 AM

Form what i understand Americans Hate Tingle is by definition Base-Breaking Character on a global scale with popularity tended to be divided by regions. Should any characters already listed on am AHT page also be listed on their series’ BBC page?

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#1246: May 16th 2023 at 1:11:25 PM

So regarding these entries on Chikn Nuggit:

  • Base-Breaking Character:
    • Iscream became one due to Flanderization. Some find Iscream becoming a Butt-Monkey to everyone else a funny joke, while others are not happy about that. Also on top of that, they don’t like how Iscream has deteriorated into little more than a way to tell horny jokes. And wish Iscream would return to their old, creepy, demonic self again. Back when they were perceived as actually scary and funny.
    • Slushi would slowly become one over time, as some fans would get progressively tired of her being little more than way to make relatable moments and fandom culture/fanart/cosplay gags, or be a mouthpiece to state a message occasionally.
    • While Cofi does have generally positive reception due to her inversion of the Wolf in Sheep's Clothing trope, others found her interactions with Iscream annoying and borderline creepy.
    • Initial reactions to Bezel are the most controversial the series has ever had up to this point. Some thought he was a cool, well designed and unique character that could bring a lot of interesting ideas and storylines to the series. While others didn’t like his severe case of Non-Standard Character Design, and thought he was an outlandish idea of a character that goes against what the series has become up to this point.

Has there been any real discourse with these guys? As a fan of the shorts, from what i've seen the fandom seems to really like the first three, and i haven't seen any real discussion regarding Bezel. At the very least Cofi's entry admitting that she's generally liked seems to imply she doesn't count.

TheWrongOne41 The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they) from Somewhere, Mexico Since: May, 2022 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
The Clown is in town (*he*/she/they)
#1247: May 16th 2023 at 1:50:52 PM

Iscream i could see keeping due to thinking the same of what the write up says (and with a friend of mine agreeing) but the other three i have doubts.

Edited by TheWrongOne41 on May 16th 2023 at 1:51:40 AM

Due to unfortunate events, i will continue to exist until further notice. (also i'm fluid now)
Ayumi-chan 3rd happiest man in Connecticut from Iacon City (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
3rd happiest man in Connecticut
#1248: May 17th 2023 at 5:02:06 AM

Found this in BaseBreakingCharacter.Trails Series

  • After Kuro II came out in Japan, Swin fell here thanks to him suddenly betraying the group by stealing the fragments of the final Oct-Genesis from Van, gives them to Garden-Master who has the final piece, and steals all but the first Oct-Genesis from Agnes due to the final piece calling out to the rest of the pieces and that's only because Van transforms as Grendel to snag the last one. While he does explain his reasons for betraying the group by making sure that Garden-Master is actually Ace and not just some guy hijacking his body, it's clear that Nadia was heartbroken by the ordeal.

It doesn't explain how his detractors or supporters react to him, so it makes it a boderline, "this guy did something bad and thats bad" ZCE. Any other opinions?

She/Her | Currently cleaning: N/A
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#1249: May 17th 2023 at 9:03:25 AM

[up]I feel that isn't an example, so I'm leaning on saying it should be removed.

Mariofan99 Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#1250: May 19th 2023 at 7:46:19 AM

I feel the page for Base-Breaking Character/Pokemon particularly its anime section is a mess here are some candidates for removal, as many fall into the trap of not being close to an even split and/or are single-sentence entries. Some of which was stuff I added a year ago under a misguided idea of the definition. I'll divide it into three categories: characters whose liked to much for BBC, characters who don't have enough fans to be a BBC (but maybe not enough haters to be The Scrappy), characters where the entry overlaps with Americans Hate Tingle (which I've seen conflicting reports if this means they should be added under Base-Breaking Character) and entries where I'd say the character itself is divisive but the entry needs substantial reworking.

    Too liked/not disliked enough 

  • Sawyer is seen as having rushed development by some. Others say his development was paced just fine because he doesn't have Team Rocket following him and all the Filler episode characters, and had Ash as a mentor. There are also those who wish Sawyer would have developed more evenly, but are happy with how he was given time constraints.
  • Gladion. While he's an overall well-received character in the Anime, opinions are split on his handling as a rival. Supporters like him for being a Nice Guy rival with fundamental respect between him and Ash, his constant role in Sun and Moon's legendary arcs that most previous rivals avoided, and managing to give a heartfelt final match before Ash crowned his first League Conference win in the show's history. Detractors, however, criticize how there didn't seem to be any real commonality between the two beyond being strong trainers on friendly terms with their Lycanroc needing to provide a backbone to the rivalry, their questionable buildup as rivals with Gladion being more involved in his own affairs than wanting to face off against Ash and only one completed match between each other and an unfinished one to provide a background to it, and their match at the League being a measly 3 VS 3 match rather than the full battles previous main rivals (with the exception of Trip) got making it an underwhelming finale for the achievement it was.
  • Zoey. Most people really like her because she is one of the nicest rivals in the series, for having some of the best contest battles ( especially her fight with Nando) and finding her Cool Big Sis relationship with Dawn to be heartwarming. However, some people feel like she is way too "nice and perfect" to the point that she becomes quite bland and find her to be too skilled as a Coordinator. They feel as if Dawn should have at least beaten her once to show her growth and development but Zoey still beat her every time. The fact that she beat Dawn in the final round of the Grand Festival and became Top Coordinator was the final nail in the coffin for these people.
  • Miette. She's generally considered funny, but some dislike that she spends more time teasing Serena about Ash than actually trying to be a serious opponent.
  • Molly Hale is either seen as one of the best antagonists in the anime with the concept of a grieving 5 year old being given ultimate power making for a compelling Anti-Villain or a girl that is too cruel and selfish to feel sorry for even with her given age and doesn't deserve to be so easily forgiven.
  • Kodai. Some hate him for doing things that many consider far too bleak and horrible for the series, while others love him for that exact reason.
In all of these cases, I feel the detractors are too much of a minority, in fact, Zoey and Miette were once/are on the Ensemble Dark Horse page. Molly, I added because I got it in my head that any character who was seen as Unintentionally Unsympathetic had to be at least a Base-Breaking Character. While Gladion's issues seem to be more aimed at the Alola Leauge than his merits as a character so I'm unsure if he should be removed or just rewritten.

     Too disliked or not liked enough 
  • Max is either seen as an amusing Know-Nothing Know-It-All with a nice dynamic with his sister and genuine Hidden Depths, or he's a bully to his older sister and an embodiment of everything wrong with the Tagalong Kid archetype.
  • Ursula. Her similarities to Harley (both of them being arrogant, petty Coordinators who constantly lose yet never really grow from it) draws a good deal of criticism, especially because she lacks the sheer over-the-top insanity of Harley's grudge on May. Many consider her an uninspired knockoff, though some still appreciate the great battles she gave to Dawn.
  • Burgundy is either hilariously insane or insanely obnoxious. Her rather inconsistent Character Development (and the writers' tendency to prioritize her Butt-Monkey status over it) doesn't help matters.
  • Sorrel and Verity. Some see them as fine characters in their own right that combine the better aspects of a few of Ash's companions, while others feel that they lack enough character to be memorable and just see them as inferior replacements for Misty and Brock. Some take a third option and feel while not the most intersting in "I Choose You" couldve been fleshed out had Ash not parted ways with them in the end.
From what I can tell these characters don't have many passionate defenders (in fact some have argued Max falls under The Scrappy) but let me know if Im incorrect in assuming the lack of a fanbase. For context, Max was the only entry of these that was mine.

     Falls under Americans Hate Tingle 
  • The Manaphy from the 9th Movie is seen as a great character whose bond with May elevates the film or an annoying Damsel Scrappy that recycles the worst parts of Togepi and saps away screentime in May and Max's final film.
  • The Shaymin from the 11th Movie is either seen as an adorable Tsundere with a strong character arc that makes it stand out from other cute Legendaries or an Ungrateful Bastard who's whining and unexplained telepathy makes the film a slog to watch.
    • Both were added by me because I knew they were divisive but assuming it BBC and AHT are mutually exclusive they probably fall under the latter.

    Needs Rewording or just doesn't fit the format 
  • Bonnie is seen as either a Badass Adorable Cheerful Child that avoids being The Load as a result of the Pokémon she forms bonds with, particularly teaching Zygarde the value of humanity. Or an annoying Spotlight-Stealing Squad whose running gag of finding her brother Clemont a wife is overused and obnoxious along with acting very ungrateful towards the things Clemont does for her.
  • Georgia. While fans generally enjoyed her interactions with Iris and numerous valid criticisms of her, there are some that find her Sore Loser habits annoying.
  • Just about ANYONE who has a Charizard. Like in the games, some people love the Nostalgia Filter that Charizard is getting a lot of love and badass attention in the series: Ash owns one and becomes an integral part of his growth, Alain using Mega Charizard X and won the conference with it, Leon sporting one to win the previous World Coronation. On the other hand, many others hate Charizard for this very reason, since they are sick and tired of seeing a Charizard, compounded further by its improbable high power and its very high win ratio each time it is on-screen thanks to Popularity Power.
  • Misty's Togepi. Some love it for being adorable and funny, others hate it for never evolving and constantly getting into trouble, forcing Pikachu to constantly rescue it. There are some fans who also blame it for, in their eyes, making Misty's personality too soft.
  • Dawn's Piplup. Either seen as one of the most annoying mons in the series, or adorable and full of personality.
  • Iris's Axew. He's polarizing for many of the same reasons as Togepi; some find him a cute baby character who had nice relationships with other cast members, particularly Pikachu and Scraggy, while others heavily criticize him for his frequent Damsel Scrappy tendencies and poor development across the board. He expresses the desire to evolve in episode 6, only to never do so, constantly gets babied by Iris in a way that never applies to her other Pokemon, and learns multiple Deus ex Machina moves to give the impression of growth (only to go right back to being babied). The infamous "Lost at the League!" episode really doesn't help matters, completely wasting time during the Pokemon League of all things for another pointless "Axew gets lost" plot. Most of these criticisms died down after its return in Journeys where it evolved into a Haxorus and helped Iris become the Champion of Unova.
  • Serena's Braixen. Some thought she was a likable match for Serena's personality, but others disliked her tendency to act like a Spoiled Brat in her focus episodes, fussing to the point of Jerkassery over extremely mundane things like getting dirty or getting her stick-wand broken
  • Zorua is either a cute and interesting character, or almost completely insufferable.
  • Cross. Those that like him feel he is a good Composite Character of characters like Gary, Paul and Damian. Others hate him for replacing Gary as Ash's first rival and for his design being likened to a bad DeviantArt OC.

I know its a lot but I feel the page needs serious work and I'd love to hear who deserves removal and who should simply be reworded.

Edited by Mariofan99 on May 19th 2023 at 10:49:08 AM


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