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Base Breaking Character Cleanup

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The Broken Base cleanup thread discusses about examples in Broken Base, but this talks about examples in YMMV pages of works containing Base-Breaking Character, (despite being an Example Sectionectomy, this can still be seen in the YMMV pages of works) where the details on what is suitable is also vague.

Here is the criteria for Base-Breaking Character:

  • A long-term, sustained conflict: Characters that were simply hated and loved, then had their interest evaporated away (both positive and negative) after a few months doesn't count. Characters in upcoming works also don't count.
  • A vicious conflict: Factions that have little problem co-existing and doesn't mind about what the other faction likes or dislikes about the character doesn't count. If it's not particularly vicious and heated, then it would be cut or be listed as a Downplayed Trope.
  • Two (or more) vocal, almost equally sized factions: A tiny Vocal Minority that doesn't shut up their pet peeve, whilst being outnumbered by more reasonable fans don't count. Nor does a Silent Majority who doesn't make a big deal with the other side count. If one of the hating factions is significantly bigger than the other, it would be classified as The Scrappy or an Ensemble Dark Horse.
  • Little to no Middle ground: Scenarios where most of the fandom doesn't care about the character, don't count.

Base-Breaking Character is when half of the fandom likes a character, yet another equally sized half dislikes it. Now that happens, but the problem is, some entries aren't really contentious (thus not resulting in flame wars when someone says they "liked that character"). Also, several entries are one-sided towards the negative or the positive side describing that only side in detail, but then wrapping up with a single line saying "But the other half likes that character". A correct way would be describing it like "a split in the Fandom on who likes it or not", with details on both sides why they're liked and disliked.

Here's an example from YMMV.Undertale:

* Base-Breaking Character:
  • Alphys. A lot of players find her character gimmick of constant messages and attempts to help more annoying than funny, especially on repeat playthroughs. And even though she has sympathetic reasons, the reveal that she's been experimenting on sick monsters to create the Amalgamates and manipulating the player to feel better about herself doesn't help, especially since she never directly apologizes for the latter.

While it may have annoyed players due to these reasons above, there has been a considerable amount of fanarts and comics or her, and not only that, the like-dislike situation hasn't been so contentious (compared to Sans, whom he's popular, now he sucks.)

edited 21st Feb '18 1:46:31 PM by AppleGates

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#326: May 23rd 2019 at 1:38:19 PM

"There are definitely detractors for these characters" =/= Base-Breaking Character. If the character meets the four criteria listed in Base-Breaking Character, that character is not base-breaking; all you have is a character with some who like them and some who don't, which pretty much describes every character in fiction.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#327: May 23rd 2019 at 1:48:14 PM

Can I please get some opinions on Lapis' entry on BaseBreakingCharacter.Steven Universe? I still think it's way too long.

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RebelFalcon ULTRANumb from ... (Private)
#328: May 23rd 2019 at 11:08:25 PM

I'll give my own reasoning for why its so long. I broke it up into multiple paragraphs because all in one paragraph would be a bloated wall of text, primarily because there are so many things that divide people about her.

With every other character in the show on that page with the exception of Rose, their bases can be divided into two categories, love or hate. With Lapis however, everything she does seems to come under scrutiny, and the topics aren't simply split down the middle, rather each topic seems to mix and match. For example: there are those that think the handling of her PTSD is well, but absolutely detest her for her actions in "Raising the Barn". Their are people who sympathize with her in regards to her actions with Peridot back in "Barn Mates", but more so out of thinking Peridot was in the wrong rather than actually defending her.

With Lapis, it seems if she so much as breaths people get up in arms about her, both defenders and critics. Just look at "Can't Go Back". While its overshadowed by "A Single Pale Rose", it still caused big divides in regards to her. There were those who understood why she fled but still were pissed claiming Aesop Amnesia, those who thought she hit Wangst territory, those that felt it was a Deus Exit Machina to keep her out of the plot since she has a Story-Breaker Power on Earth, and those who felt it worked but that the timing was off.

Every one of her actions becomes divisive because of one factor: Lapis is the embodiment of Angst in the show due to her PTSD. PTSD in media is a tricky topic bordering on a slippery slope, and the line between reasonable and Wangst can get blurred based on the viewer. Since Lapis is a melting pot of numerous forms of PTSD and mental disorders, her behavior will naturally be divisive, and each instance of her will be taken case by case.

For another example, look at "Room for Ruby". Even though Lapis was vindicated in her distrust of Navy, a lot of viewers were still put off because of Lapis' behavior, thinking she was being too critical based on her own experiences, or that she messed up by not grabbing the Roaming Eye with her hydrokinesis when she had the chance and instead spent that time gloating about being right.

Lapis' entry is ultimately so large because unlike the other characters, her entire character is so multilayered and multifaceted, every layer and facet invokes a different Broken Base, and no two responses are the same. Plus, that and it would be a wall of text if not segmented.

Edited by RebelFalcon on May 23rd 2019 at 2:08:53 PM

Rodimus: Self-sacrifice, Magnus— It's cheap. It's a cheap way out. I need to live so I can make amends.
Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#329: May 27th 2019 at 9:14:23 AM

I feel like BrokenBase.Duck Tales 2017 is beyond repair and should be cut or locked.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#330: May 27th 2019 at 10:14:14 AM

But how do we show that it is NOT a broken base?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#331: May 27th 2019 at 10:22:44 AM

Better question is how to show it is a Broken Base. Because most, if not all, of those examples pretty much just say "some people think X, some people think Y." They don't do a good job showing that there is little to no middle ground, and seems to just want to reader to take the posters' word that said middle ground isn't there.

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#332: May 27th 2019 at 12:41:55 PM

Well, I could point to the forum here, or mention this blog from a pretty well respected Ducktales reviewer (of the old show, that is). As a counterexample, the Den of Geek and AV Club reviews are generally positive, though they also note some problems with the show. Rotten Tomatoes has a perfect score, but that is all based on the pilot episode, so that basically says nothing about the actual show.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013
#333: May 27th 2019 at 12:44:30 PM

Broken Base is about contentions in the fandom of the show, not the general reception. Basically, the fans of the older Ducktales who dislike the new show as a whole are not part of the "Base".

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#334: May 27th 2019 at 12:59:42 PM

Well, then the question is again, how do we measure discontent in the fandom? In any fandom, really.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#335: May 27th 2019 at 1:38:14 PM

Well first, we could bring people actually in the fandom into the discussion; shot a message to the show's thread asking for help.

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Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#336: May 27th 2019 at 2:09:35 PM

I'm in the fandom. I feel a lot of the examples there are justified. I can't say if this is a widely held opinion, though I know at least two on the thread have held similar opinions.

I think Launchpad is definitely a good candidate. His new characterization has been very divisive in the thread. Gyro has had similar issues with characterization, especially amongst comic fans. These two are also in the process of being rescued from the scrappy heap, though.

Edited by Redmess on May 27th 2019 at 11:12:35 AM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
BrightLight from the Southern Water Tribe. Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#337: May 27th 2019 at 5:49:11 PM

Hello, another DuckTales (2017) watcher here!

Just giving my two cents to the debate.

While there are some entries on the YMMV section of the show that don't adhere to the content guidelines (perhaps most notably the 6-month wait), there are plenty of other entries regarding the show's tone, handling of story arcs, and characterization that are legitimate and deserving of mention.

Aside from Launchpad and Gyro, Glomgold and Magica also fall into the Broken Base for the show's handling of the villains.

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#338: May 27th 2019 at 10:47:35 PM

Again, those entries don't show that there's a long-sustained conflict between two large factions with little to no middle ground. Base-Breaking Character =/= "characters that have lots of critics." That bit about being little to no middle ground is very important to this particular audience reaction.

If you can't prove there's little to no middle ground in the conflict, you don't have a Base-Breaking Character.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on May 27th 2019 at 10:48:46 AM

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#339: May 28th 2019 at 3:10:44 AM

But again, how do you prove that for any base breaking character? Can you give an example of one that definitely IS one, and demonstrate what you base that on?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#340: May 28th 2019 at 7:58:53 AM

[up]Honestly, I don't think it is possible to definitively prove someone is a Base-Breaking Character in this day and age. This is because the internet is pretty unreliable at gauging fandoms; very vocal minorities make certain opinions seem more prevalent than they really are and there are a lot of fans who don't speak up about what they like or don't like. Not to mention internet communities often make up a smaller percentage of the fandom than one might expect.

I think if you want to definitively prove a character is Base-Breaking, you're going to have to do some research on the fandom outside of the internet. I don't think there are many people on this site willing to do that sort of legwork, but just using the internet to prove someone is a Base-Breaking Character is not reliable, even without making the assumption that every member of the fandom voices their opinions online.

With that being said, I'm still going to say I don't believe those DuckTales (2017) characters count unless we get more solid proof than "Bunch of people didn't like them." That sort of statement doesn't really show that said "bunch of people" is nearly half of the fandom and in a vicious conflict with the other half.

As for what proof would be more reliable, I suppose things you want to look out for are:

  • Whether the character causes people to fight the moment they're brought up nearly 100% of the time, and that this is seen across multiple forums, preferably in various regions.
  • The amount of people participating in said fights consist of nearly the entire forum and not just a double-digit amount of people.
  • Little to no middle grounds in said fights (this one will probably be harder to prove, since it's very possible the middle ground people decided to just stay out of the blast zone).

Edited by dragonfire5000 on May 28th 2019 at 8:23:06 AM

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#341: May 28th 2019 at 8:33:00 AM

I feel that with such strict requirements, it will be very hard to prove that ANY character is base breaking. There won't be many confirmed cases outside of the really huge fandoms (like MLP, Star Trek, whathaveyou), and we will end up just decimating the examples. Was that the point of the stricter rules?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#342: May 28th 2019 at 8:39:50 AM

The point of the strict rules is to weed out misuse, which there is a lot of on this site. Usually of the "Some people think X, some people think Y" or "I'm wonking under the guise of documenting audience reactions" variety, with the occasional "Some people think X, some people think Y, and a third faction doesn't care" thrown in.

I do think the rules being strict is good, because otherwise all you have is "this character has lots of fans and haters," which is far too omnipresent and broad. And as I said before, I doubt there are actually that many characters in all of media that actually meet the specific requirements. And that's fine. The world's not going to end just because a work page on this site doesn't have a Base-Breaking Character entry.

Better we have only a few entries that are actually well-researched than a bunch of entries that were written by making sweeping assumptions.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on May 28th 2019 at 8:42:28 AM

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#343: May 28th 2019 at 9:39:51 AM

I agree, but I also think this new set of rules will lean towards only including examples from bigger fandoms that are more visible outside the internet.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#344: May 28th 2019 at 9:58:13 AM

That's my problem with most of these effort threads to be honest, it's just way too hard to get the kind of evidence some people want for this trope except in the biggest fandoms. It's not helped that a bunch of fandoms have long since died or had their forums nuked so all people have left is memories of bitter feuds. Kinda hard to cite memories.

Edited by PhiSat on May 28th 2019 at 10:58:36 AM

Oissu!
DocSharp Since: Jun, 2011
#345: May 28th 2019 at 12:36:50 PM

I usually just observe this thread from afar, but I think I've finally had enough. I'm going to be extremely blunt here: the fact that you couldn't name just one character who fell under the current criteria is... worrying. If you can't do the bare minimum to help someone understand what you want, and instead state that the current rules might be impossible to prove, than something's gotta be wrong here. Do you honestly not understand how ridiculous and frustrating that is? All I've ever seen this thread do is tell people that nothing counts without bothering to propose anything yourselves - this is just an echo chamber where the rules get repeated again and again, oblivious to how the standards are completely unrealistic. This thread is completely failing to do its job.

This trope, as it has been defined by this thread, is either nigh impossible to prove or does not exist, neither of which make sense as the base concept is clearly inspired by the visible and volatile nature of modern fandom. This attempt at a cleanup effort is genuinely unacceptable. I think this thread's regulars seriously need to take a good, hard review of what they're trying to do here, because at this rate Base-Breaking Character will probably get sacked.

Edited by DocSharp on May 28th 2019 at 12:45:23 PM

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#347: May 28th 2019 at 2:53:38 PM

[up][up][up]As I said in the Deader Than Disco cleanup thread, I think this is a major problem with our approach to YMMV tropes as a whole. Opinions change over time.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#348: May 28th 2019 at 3:14:18 PM

[up][up][up][awesome]

Honestly? I agree. I think the idea of trimming it down in response to some of the overly kneejerk or ultimately complaints is fair enough, and having a strict set of rules as a form of guidance is useful to prevent it from becoming overly broad. But the enforcement of it, and the degree of criteria many people in this thread demand, is also taking it way too far in the other direction and establishing unrealistic standards for a phenomenon that absolutely does exist and deserves to be documented.

In particular I find the hard rule against there being a middle ground of any sort to be completely unreasonable, except as a deliberate excuse to have the trope removed for whatever reason. Even The Scrappy is less overly stringent. You don't see people pushing to have entries removed just because a contingent of fans for an unpopular character was found. There's definitely characters who incite a ton of debate wherever they go; just because some number of fans greater than two who don't feel passionate exist doesn't invalidate the highly divisive nature of the character.

Edited by AlleyOop on May 28th 2019 at 6:19:09 AM

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#349: May 28th 2019 at 3:33:23 PM

[up]It doesn't invalidate the divisive nature of a character, but it does disqualify them from being a Base-Breaking Character specifically. Base-Breaking Characters are all divisive characters, but not every divisive character is a Base-Breaking Character.

I don't mind the "little to no middle ground" rule, because it makes the audience reaction more specific than "lots of people like and hate this character." That latter one is a bit too close to People Sit on Chairs, or at least as much as an audience reaction can be People Sit on Chairs.

We probably won't have many examples that fit all the criteria needed for Base-Breaking Character, but honestly, I don't really think there are that many media characters that fit that exact type of divisiveness. But better we have very few but accurate examples as opposed to a bunch of examples basically saying "people disagree about this character."

Edited by dragonfire5000 on May 28th 2019 at 3:41:52 AM

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#350: May 28th 2019 at 3:49:06 PM

So if they are not base breaking characters, what are they, then? There are definitely characters in shows that cause much division but still do not qualify under these strict requirements. Do they suddenly not count as divisive at all?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

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