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terlwyth Since: Oct, 2010
#376: Jan 20th 2022 at 4:29:42 PM

A thought just occurred to me, will they ever find the actor who played the first guy Daniel met when he moved?

In the original movie, there was a guy that served to make Daniel get comfortable in the area and also to get him to the beach party where the whole plot begins. he was never seen again after that fight.

It would be interesting to see.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#377: Jan 26th 2022 at 8:28:11 PM

So Jon Hurwitz recently posted some behind the scenes pictures from the All-Valley, and one thing that stood out to me in this picture is that evidently, at one point, Demetri's last name would've been "Kastellanos" instead of "Alexopoulos" as seen on the bracket in the background.

I think this might've been a placeholder name, since the first season made apparent that Demetri's last name was in the A-D range (in season 1 episode 9, he's in the same classroom as Miguel for the practice SATs).

Okey Dokey!
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#378: Jan 29th 2022 at 5:37:47 PM

I feel at times like the Cobra Kai writers try a bit too hard to make everyone a "shade of grey" by giving the "bad guys" a sob story background while making the "good guys" overly arrogant, and use that to justify the bad behavior of the bad guys. I think this is visible in the girls' rivalry in season 4. The writers had made Tory too "evil"/"crazy" in the previous seasons to let her redeem herself that easily, not to mention that the rivalry was at that point pretty one-sided. Their solution wasn't just to tone down Tory, but to also vilify Sam to a degree.

As much as I think Sam's responses to Tory were wrong (though made sense in light of Sam's PTSD), Tory was shown in a more sympathetic light than Sam in general. Thing is, Sam has PTSD that Tory caused. Obviously Miguel cheating on Tory and Sam cheating on Robby was wrong, but Sam's offense was against Robby, not Tory. Tory, meanwhile, directly attacked Sam twice with weapons, and broke into her house. So Sam being angry at Tory makes perfect sense. She wasn't in the right for lashing out per se (like being catty towards Tory at the birthday party), but it rubbed me the wrong way that Sam was essentially told by her mom to "suck it up and get over it". Or that Amanda's main motivation for helping Tory seemed less like it was about protecting her daughter and more because she sympathized with Tory because of this convenient random anecdote from Amanda's past that no one had ever heard before this point.

This actually makes Tory a good demonstration of another problem the show has: a "lack of punishment". The show tries so hard to push this "two sides to every story" idea that they don't punish the clear offenders very often while mistakes made by the victims are blown out of proportion with unintended consequences, just so the writers can say that both sides are equally to blame. Contrast Tory and Hawk with Robby. Robby suffered harsh legal consequences for one moment when he was a jerk. Hawk never faced any legal consequences despite the fact he was a total psycho for the longest time who assaulted people, and destroyed and stole property. Meanwhile, Tory has attacked Sam twice with weapons, and barely faced punishment because she always has someone (Amanda) or something (her home situation) to help her suffer less consequences.

This extends to Daniel and Johnny too, and the show's need to vilify Daniel because otherwise Johnny would come off like a dangerous individual who shouldn't be around children. Johnny is portrayed as the more sympathetic of the two. His gang attack on Daniel in 1984 is glossed over, while Daniel’s trauma in general is completely glossed over. The result is that Johnny is portrayed as the underdog while Daniel is portrayed (throughout the show) as overreacting and arrogant. I'm like, yes, Daniel is arrogant, but he’s not overreacting. His responses, though not always right, are trauma responses in the face of two psychopaths (Kreese and Silver), and the show needs to stop downplaying that.

This has even extended to Kreese, honestly. There's a reason Kreese* getting a pseudo-redemption in season 4 doesn't work either.

All in all, it feels at times like the writers’ focus is more on humanizing psychopaths (Kreese) and antagonists (Johnny in the movies and Tory in seasons 2 and 3) than developing their other characters.

(*For the record, Kreese doing things like being protective of Johnny or taking Tory's side when she and Silver have a back-and-forth at the tournament? While it's possible that he does genuinely care about Johnny and Tory in those moments, he also comes off to a degree like he was just fishing for reasons to pick a fight with Silver as the tension between them had been growing throughout the season.)

Okey Dokey!
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#379: Jan 29th 2022 at 5:55:11 PM

There's a reason Kreese* getting a pseudo-redemption in season 4 doesn't work either.

He hasn't, though? He's still a total scumbag. Just because he's given some extra depth and Terry is juxtaposed as being slightly worse in some aspects (aspects that only come out precisely *because* of Kreese's actions) does not mean he isn't a scumbag.

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#380: Jan 29th 2022 at 8:43:52 PM

At this point, the Cobras could murder someone in cold blood in broad daylight in front of hundreds of witnesses while caught on camera and still face zero consequences for it.

Meanwhile, someone from Miyagi-Do randomly bumps into someone on accident, apologizes for it, and everyone around immediately starts screaming for their blood.

tongue

But more seriously, I agree with everything you said dmcreif. That definitely needed to be said.

Edited by Guy01 on Jan 29th 2022 at 9:39:27 AM

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#381: Jan 30th 2022 at 5:35:04 AM

Sam in general doesn't get to really sit down and work through her trauma all that much. Like, she got Season 3, where Daniel helped her through it somewhat, and she faced off against Tory but, like, that's just the first step in the healing process. The trauma's not just magically fixed now. She needs actual therapy, not karate-only therapy. The way she was treating Tory was pretty trauma-driven. Sam still (probably) hasn't been to therapy. She's never gotten to really express how she feels about Tory, and with her mom now helping Tory, it makes sense that Sam is angry and confused and hurt. It doesn't help that Tory is more of a protagonist this season (and they did somewhat gloss over her prior actions). Tory is the underdog, the tournament hopeful, who you're set up to root for her, because her wants are simple. Sam's wants are more complicated: she wants to be okay, to be safe. From a practical standpoint, Amanda should've just sat the girls down and helped them mediate, to help Sam get closer to that, while also showing that "Yes, Tory can still be shown as sympathetic while doing the same for Sam."

This is coupled with the fact that for the longest time, Amanda has been one of the most universally well-liked characters on the show. I'm pretty sure the only common criticism about Amanda that I’ve seen is that she’s “too easy on Sam”. The writers clearly took the criticisms about Tory being one dimensional into consideration when writing the scripts for season 4, so it would not be a surprise if they also took the “criticisms” about Amanda into consideration too. Sticking Tory with Amanda is going to cause some of Amanda’s likability to be passed down to Tory.

The same is true for seasons 1-3 Robby. Robby is Johnny's neglected son and up until season 4, Miguel and Johnny are more protagonists than Robby. Naturally, audiences would favor Miguel and Johnny and see Robby as a threat to the father-son bond of Miguel and Robby. The show does very little to show the extent of the toll of Johnny's mistakes on Robby's mental health and overall wellbeing. Like with the girls, Johnny should've sat the boys down, and by the same token, it would've shown that "yes, Miguel can still be shown as sympathetic while doing the same for Robby." (As it were, Miguel kinda makes Johnny more likable than he really should be most of the time)

Edited by dmcreif on Jan 30th 2022 at 9:43:06 AM

Okey Dokey!
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#382: Jan 30th 2022 at 9:15:27 AM

The problem is this is an Eighties universe that rules on Eighties tropes.

Sam can only be cured through karate and the power of a montage.

Which Johnny is providing.

And I'm not sure I'm kidding.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#383: Jan 30th 2022 at 3:33:43 PM

I would say Amanda hasn't resolved the Tory-Sam feud at all. Her intervention has changed practically nothing so far, and arguably has only made things worse on the Sam side of things.

I mean, sure, Amanda states her thought process clearly enough to the audience (Tory is not going to harm Sam while she has something to lose, helping Tory might make her feud with Sam die out instead of festering to the point Tory does something worse), but she doesn't explain it very clearly to her daughter, Tory's victim. As a result, from Sam’s point of view, her mom is befriending the girl who’s tried to brutally disfigure her twice. That's upsetting for Sam and a big part of the reason why she’s lashing out at Tory throughout season 4.

Helping Tory is only half of the equation, but it’s not going to resolve anything so long as Amanda is doing so without first taking into consideration how her daughter might feels about it.

Edited by dmcreif on Jan 30th 2022 at 6:34:27 AM

Okey Dokey!
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#384: Jan 30th 2022 at 3:34:45 PM

The problem is this is an Eighties universe that rules on Eighties tropes.

Sam can only be cured through karate and the power of a montage.

Which Johnny is providing.

And I'm not sure I'm kidding.

Are we sure this isn't shonen rules too?

terlwyth Since: Oct, 2010
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#387: Jan 31st 2022 at 5:14:05 PM

Honestly, how do you think they'll handle exposing that Silver fixed the tournament?

My guess is that Tory's newfound commitment to fighting by the rules dictates that there's no scenario for her character development where she keeps her All-Valley trophy. All of the best routes for her character development moving forward would be for her to expose Silver and for Sam to be declared as the first female All-Valley champion. This would also be the logical way to jumpstart maybe not a friendship between the rivals, but at least a mutual respect where they aren't antagonizing one another. Because at this point, the biggest thing for Sam is that she doesn't believe Tory is trying to change. And Tory has nothing to gain and everything to lose by confessing to the sabotage, which would maybe be enough to convince Sam that Tory genuinely had nothing to do with it, but that Tory is really trying to change for the better.

Now, would Sam accept being an All-Valley champion by technicality / being declared the winner retroactively? I don't know. I feel she would want to have won it in the arena on the day of. And thus would want a rematch in the tournament so she can say she earned the trophy fairly. But then again, how things move forward probably will not be up to Sam, but to the All-Valley Tournament committee, who will be backed into a corner. I can see three possible outcomes coming of Tory coming clean about the interference of Silver:

Option 1: The results of the entire 51st All-Valley Tournament are nullified and they redo the whole thing because it's unclear how many other matches besides Sam vs. Tory were fixed. (Which would happen in season 6, and in December as a call-back to the Karate Kid All-Valleys, which happened in December)

Option 2: Tory is disqualified, stripped of her trophy, and it is given to Sam. The reason being because it's heavily implied that cheating was also done in Tory's match with Devon (Tory hits Devon while Devon is blatantly out of bounds). The audience omnipotently knows that Tory washes Devon, but the committee probably does not. As a result, whether or not Tory would even make it to the finals would be called into question. So they might find it cheaper and more time-saving to just hand the trophy to Sam rather than redo an entire tournament. And they might also go this way because Sam winning the All-Valley on a technicality would be consistent with the other All-Valley winners:

  • 1984: Daniel LaRusso wins using the (heavily debated) crane kick
  • 1985: Despite getting bodied all match, Daniel LaRusso gets up and scores the one point that matters against Mike Barnes (as opposed to Mike scoring 2 points and then fouling himself back to 1 over and over again, instead of 0, with the ref also likely being bribed to not disqualify Barnes).
  • 2018: Miguel Diaz wins by attacking Robby's hurt shoulder
  • 2019 Boys': Eli Moscowitz wins because Robby Keene's mentor angst (over Kenny turning into a bully) gets the better of him in the moment
  • 2019 Girls': Samantha LaRusso wins because it's revealed that Terry Silver arranged her loss by bribing the referee to make calls that favored Tory Nichols

Option 3: The committee declares the results invalid because there is no way to predict what would have happened if the referee hadn't "made an error" (cheated), so there's no official winner both for that bout and for the overall. They don't necessarily ask for Tory to return her trophy, but they put an asterisk next to that year's stats.

Edited by dmcreif on Jan 31st 2022 at 8:16:37 AM

Okey Dokey!
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#388: Feb 1st 2022 at 2:55:41 AM

I mean, I don't think they will because the show acknowledges a few times that the karate tournament doesn't mean that much by itself. Miguel won the first one but it didn't really do much because it was a hollow victory.

The show is always aware of the "Miyagi POV" that the tournament is less important than your growth and relatoonships.

It doesn't matter if Tori or Sam won. Its about how they've changed as people.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#389: Feb 1st 2022 at 5:51:42 AM

At this point, Sam has a journey to make on her own. It may be about Tory, but it shouldn't involve her. Sam needs to reach a point where she doesn't feel the need to get payback on Tory for what Tory did to her in the school and house brawls. Tory has her own arc as well, and those arcs shouldn't intersect until they are both in a better space.

That's how it should go logically, but realistically, the show isn't above going the route of finding ways to drag out conflict. It's possible Tory doesn't come clean right away about seeing Silver bribe the ref, and instead the truth gets out because Sam has enough time to work through her loss to realize something wasn't kosher about the match / someone else witnessed the bribe (like, maybe someone saw Silver make the initial offer instead of the payoff that Tory saw or someone notices the ref wearing an expensive watch and calls him out on it). Basically, something where Sam is convinced that Tory was in on it, and Amanda has her doubts about Tory again as well, and it swirls into another big mess because they need drama to fill up the next two seasons.

Okey Dokey!
DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#390: Feb 3rd 2022 at 9:28:49 AM

I wonder what's going to happen to the Eagle fang kids.Think Johnny's going take them along to look for Miguel?

I feel that if they all join Miyagi-Do Devon is going to end up a awkward third wheel to Sam and Tory's rivaly.Assuming the dont bring in another Cobra Kai girl for her to feud with.The show doesnt seem to be interested in mixed gender fights unless it's one sided.

Edited by DeanCole on Feb 3rd 2022 at 9:50:51 AM

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#391: Feb 3rd 2022 at 2:03:31 PM

Assuming the dont bring in another Cobra Kai girl for her to feud with.The show doesnt seem to be interested in mixed gender fights unless it's one sided.

Maybe they intend for Piper to be that rival. Much like Tory was initially created largely to be a rival for Sam. When Sam joined the karate game in season 2, they had to create a karate rival for Sam because boys beating up girls is apparently seen as taboo, unless it's "flirt-sparring / playfighting" or "the girl giving the guys a one-sided beatdown".

Edited by dmcreif on Feb 3rd 2022 at 6:21:13 AM

Okey Dokey!
DeanCole Since: Jun, 2015
#392: Feb 5th 2022 at 3:31:03 PM

I don't know.Feel like if this where the case they'll used the tournament to start something.

I mean they still could.But not without a drastic change of personality on Pipers part.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#393: Feb 6th 2022 at 3:25:25 PM

I'm really hoping we move from the tournament now.

It doesn't matter who si the champion or not.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#394: Feb 9th 2022 at 10:14:33 PM

I dunno. I feel like there's one more tournament in the cards to settle everything. The season 4 tournament is definitely a cliffhanger for things to come.

Edited by dmcreif on Feb 9th 2022 at 1:16:31 PM

Okey Dokey!
terlwyth Since: Oct, 2010
#395: Feb 13th 2022 at 9:32:12 AM

Agreed.

So, are there supposed to be two more seasons or just one?

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#396: Feb 14th 2022 at 7:17:24 AM

They've already filmed season 5. I do think there is a season 6 possibly in the works, because the showrunners talked about envisioning the show as having six seasons.

Okey Dokey!
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#397: Apr 18th 2022 at 10:50:11 PM

Sometimes, I feel like the show has a tendency to "over-correct", and a habit of vilifying certain characters, or making said characters come off as "annoying" as extra insurance to make the viewers like the character they're trying to redeem or make the audience like, without a lot of nuance.

This is definitely seen with the girls' rivalry. In season 3, Tory is largely painted as a villain, so we are clearly meant to be rooting for Sam in the rivalry. Then they do a 180 in season 4 and we are now supposed to see Sam as the bad guy. Thing is, despite their efforts, my sympathies in season 4 lie more with Sam than with Tory. The season 4 writing wants the audience to believe that Tory has changed without Tory actually displaying any growth or any sign that she's sorry for what she did, and treats Tory as though all of the legitimate wrongs she has committed should be excused because of her bad home life.

Edited by dmcreif on Apr 18th 2022 at 2:02:10 PM

Okey Dokey!
terlwyth Since: Oct, 2010
#398: Apr 19th 2022 at 3:32:37 AM

[up] And Amanda is usually the mouthpiece for this.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#399: Apr 19th 2022 at 5:04:53 AM

The girls had similar but not exactly identical problems with their writing in season 4: there’s all of this development for each of them, but it all occurs offscreen.

Tory is just flat-out inconsistent to me. With her, it’s more like the audience is told she’s changing, without us actually seeing any change in her actions or behavior. The writers say she's "changed," while they still show her in Cobra Kai, still feuding with Sam (like going to prom with Robby for the sole purpose of ruining Sam's night, which makes Tory look mean and petty), and still joining in on revenge plots against the “enemies” of Cobra Kai (she participates in shaving Hawk's head, and then in the very next episode goes to the LaRussos to ask for favors, while Sam is framed as being unreasonable for understandably not being okay with Tory returning to school). It's like Tory didn't change at all. What did change was the narrative framing. And I'll be honest, this sort of inconsistency has been with Tory from when she was introduced, probably because the writers' initial reason for creating Tory was solely to give Sam a female opponent to fight.

With Sam, the writers tell the audience about all of this development and all of these things that Sam is doing, but don't actually show the audience any of it, meaning any character development from this season feels inauthentic, and the accomplishments she reaches in the season 4 finale feel unearned (they basically relegated an entire character arc to taking place offscreen). This is one example of how longer episodes would've benefited certain characters.

Okey Dokey!
terlwyth Since: Oct, 2010
#400: Apr 19th 2022 at 2:52:06 PM

[up] Actually, just dropping Kenny v. Anthony or seriously shortening it, if we cynically assume Robby's development hinges on Kenny.

There was more than enough time for Sam and Tori both, but it was arguably wasted on other plots.


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