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Duplicate tropes discussion thread

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A thread discussing similar tropes.

Note that two tropes being distinct in theory does that mean they are distinct in practice. If participants agree that two (or more) tropes really don't seem distinct enough to be separate, one can start a thread in the Trope Repair Shop for further discussion. A a wick check demonstrating redundancy will likely be required, though.

Before asking "What's the difference between these tropes?", check the Canonical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions and Laconical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions lists. They may contain the answer. Feel free to contribute to them, too.


    Original OP 

I've decided to start a new cleanup thread dealing with trope similarities. This thread is for discussing tropes that appear to be a duplicate of another trope, and if it's agreed upon that the two tropes talked about are similar enough, one should start a thread about it in the Trope Repair Shop.

I'll start with my issue...


Asian Hooker Stereotype and Mighty Whitey and Mellow Yellow are pretty much the same trope—they both involve a white man and an Asian woman.

Edited by Synchronicity on Aug 8th 2024 at 5:29:57 AM

eroock Since: Sep, 2012
#3501: Aug 8th 2024 at 12:42:54 AM

It's worth noting that Two Lines, No Waiting cuts back and forth between the two plots while HS plots can potentially be told one after the other.

BlackMage43 Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#3502: Aug 8th 2024 at 10:25:42 AM

What's the difference between Femme Fatale and The Vamp? The only difference that seems clear to me is The Vamp is always evil.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3503: Aug 8th 2024 at 10:46:07 AM

The descriptions already expound on the difference quite a bit. The Vamp is an outright "evil seductress", Femme Fatale is defined by her aura of sexy, morally ambiguous mystery and may or may not be an actual evil seductress. The latter is also a specific Stock Character in noir or noir-adjacent settings.

Edited by Synchronicity on Aug 8th 2024 at 1:48:51 PM

DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3504: Aug 8th 2024 at 11:49:29 AM

[up][up]I've always seen those two tropes as redundant, and am not going to defend them. For starters, this very wiki is the only place where I've seen a distinction between "femme fatale" and "vamp". Everyone else uses the two words as synonyms, for the "attractive, sinister woman who uses her sex appeal to control men." (And we've been trying to move away from "the same character type but evil", anyway.)

And "but the Femme Fatale is specific to the Film Noir genre" seems like another case of The Same, but More Specific.

Edited by DoktorvonEurotrash on Aug 8th 2024 at 11:50:04 AM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3506: Aug 8th 2024 at 2:13:07 PM

[up][up]Femme Fatale is The Vamp but in noir” is not what was posted at all.

Being a term/archetype well-discussed outside the wiki is actually a good argument for it to be separate in some form, not an argument for TSBMS. Note that I'm not discussing the theoretical difference; I'm not looking at example redundancy here.


[up]Franchise Ownership Acquisition is much much newer so I'd imagine some "work changing hands" examples were on Channel Hop for lack of anywhere better-fitting to put them. The description of the former already explains the hypothetical difference.

For a related concept see Channel Hop where the franchise changes to a new television channel or other kind of distributor (e.g. movie studio, comic/magazine/book publisher), but the franchise itself otherwise can remain with the original group and/or creative team that owns it


I'm amending the OP similar to Is this an example?, a theoretical difference does not mean the tropes aren't duplicates in practice.

Edited by Synchronicity on Aug 8th 2024 at 5:30:54 AM

TMH-Sir-Iron-Vomit The clown of STEEL from Ichnusa Since: Mar, 2024
The clown of STEEL
#3507: Aug 9th 2024 at 3:30:04 PM

Are Hot Blade and Flaming Sword really that distinct from one another?

Oo oo ah ah
FSharp Resisting a rest Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: I wanna know what love is
#3508: Aug 9th 2024 at 3:42:43 PM

Hot Blade is possible in real life, while Flaming Sword isn't.

I don't just Wiki Talk the talk. I Wiki Walk the walk.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#3509: Aug 10th 2024 at 5:01:45 PM

EDIT: Nvm

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Aug 10th 2024 at 8:02:19 AM

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#3510: Aug 13th 2024 at 6:39:27 PM

Also I assume Flaming Sword has literal flames while Hot Blade could still be functionally solid, just hot.

Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#3511: Aug 13th 2024 at 9:40:01 PM

[up] That's my interpretation.

Super_Weegee Since: Feb, 2019
#3512: Aug 14th 2024 at 11:13:02 PM

Was told to redirect my question here by ATT. I tried looking around, but I can't find a definitive answer on this apart from a vague line in Culturally Sensitive Adaptation, so I'm asking ATT.

According to that page, it's when a questionable element is changed or removed due to Values Dissonance. According to Bowdlerise, it's when a questionable element is changed or removed. While Culturally Sensitive Adaptation only has one line about how it's used in a new work instead of an existing one, on quite a few pages like The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Disney), Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, and Aladdin (2019), both tropes are used simultaneously.

Can both tropes overlap or are they mutually exclusive?

Edited by Super_Weegee on Aug 15th 2024 at 5:26:07 AM

guardianofthepark Since: Jun, 2024
#3515: Aug 15th 2024 at 10:46:08 PM

[up]The description for Eldritch Transformation also say that the character could have been a human.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#3516: Aug 15th 2024 at 10:48:15 PM

It's a subtrope.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
guardianofthepark Since: Jun, 2024
#3517: Aug 15th 2024 at 11:05:42 PM

But what are the differences between the two? The descriptions of both tropes only says that one is a subtrope, but not how they are different.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#3518: Aug 15th 2024 at 11:08:38 PM

By nature of subtropes, you'd put any "once human" example in the subtrope. That's what makes it different. The extra qualifier.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
petersohn from Earth, Solar System (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Hiding
#3519: Aug 15th 2024 at 11:22:06 PM

I think that Eldritch Transformation is about the transformation itself, while Transhuman Abomination is the end result, with the transformation possibly having taken place off-screen or in the backstory.

Fjón þvæ ég af mér fjanda minna rán og reiði ríkra manna.
eroock Since: Sep, 2012
#3520: Aug 16th 2024 at 6:08:25 PM

Which would imply the subtropen/supertrope relationship is actually between Transhuman Abomination and Eldritch Abomination and not Eldritch Transformation.

Edited by eroock on Aug 16th 2024 at 3:16:51 PM

eroock Since: Sep, 2012
#3522: Aug 17th 2024 at 2:41:24 AM

"Hero" as a sub-group of "good guys"?

FSharp Resisting a rest Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: I wanna know what love is
#3523: Aug 18th 2024 at 7:11:06 PM

[up] I’d consider it a stretch to call examples of Fallen Hero that are merely about “good guys” misuse.

In any case, Fallen Hero is already on Tropes Needing TRS.

Edited by FSharp on Aug 18th 2024 at 10:13:24 AM

I don't just Wiki Talk the talk. I Wiki Walk the walk.
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#3524: Aug 18th 2024 at 9:57:23 PM

Face–Heel Turn is a plot point and isn't strictly about "heroes". Fallen Hero is an in-story status.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
FSharp Resisting a rest Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: I wanna know what love is
#3525: Aug 18th 2024 at 11:28:45 PM

[up] Sure, but anyone who does a Face–Heel Turn immediately gains that status. That’s too close for comfort in my opinion.

I don't just Wiki Talk the talk. I Wiki Walk the walk.

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