Duplicate tropes discussion thread

Judging from the trope description I would assume TPK is specifically for tabletop games or similar games, which makes sense because that's where the term comes from

But the examples aren't limited to games

• Total Party Kill: a distinct group of characters gets wiped out at any time, even in the backstory
• "Everybody Dies" Ending: the main cast (grouped or not) all die at the end

Im not dure that really matches the description, or the example list. Im thinking TPK needs a TRS visit

I'll do a wick check when I have the time (so probably tomorrow).

I'm also having trouble telling the difference between Doomed Hurt Guy and Sacrificial Lamb. The former's name is also just really, really bad TBQH

What is the actual difference between Dumb Is Good and Kindhearted Simpleton? Like both pages name check the other and say there's a difference, but there doesn't seem to be enough of one to warrant to separate tropes? Like Dumb Is Good is maybe a slightly more exaggerated version of Kindhearted Simpleton, amping up the moralistic aspect, but it doesn't seem like it's so important that it needs to be two different tropes IMHO.

Edited by trashconverters on Nov 10th 2023 at 3:34:16 AM

Huh— I think you may be right. I had thought there was a difference but in practice I can't see it.

Here's the laconics:

Kind Hearted Simpleton: An unintelligent, foolish, or gullible, but good-hearted and likable character.

Dumb Is Good: Stupid characters are friendly (or kindly) compared to smarter characters.

So that could mean that Dumb is Good refers to a trend, that in a given work stupid character are kinder or nicer in general. But looking at the examples, in practice they appear to both just be mostly examples of one or two nice, stupid characters, often the exact same characters.

Probably a good candidate for a wickcheck— open the related tab for each trope, select 50 wicks at random, and sort them by how many on each page use the trope to mean:

• One nice, stupid character
• Dumb characters, in general, are nicer
• ZCE, other uses, etc

If they're both using it the same way, then there's no need for both of them imo

Edited by Tremmor19 on Nov 10th 2023 at 11:28:56 AM

Puppet Permutation and Toy Transmutation?

Subtrope and a supertrope

Bringing this back (original post in previous page): what is the difference between Jigsaw Puzzle Plot and Kudzu Plot?

Jigsaw Puzzle seems to be things that are happening or setting lore that's planned out and then pieces given to viewers over time, and Kudzu seems to be that but poorly executed, too confusing, or not planned out

To me Kudzu Plot is the next step of Four Lines, All Waiting where Aborted Arc becomes common, while Jigsaw Puzzle Plot is when a Myth Arc is driven through multiple forms of exposition.

It's All About Me vs Small Name, Big Ego ?

I don't see correlation?

Edited by Amonimus on Nov 10th 2023 at 12:04:37 PM

Re this reply. What does ZCE mean? Also how do you find the related tab?

Zero-Context Example. And the related tab is found at the top of every trope and work page, right next to the edit button.

Small Name, Big Ego focuses more on the contrast between how they're seen and how they think they're seen.

I'm trying to dig into what the deal is between Pinocchio Nose and You Can Always Tell a Liar. Putting together a wick check page the actual checking will come when i'm not at work we've worked out that the latter was intended to be distinguished by being about alleged universal tells rather than character-specific ones, but this information never made it out of TLP, and instead someone added some random claim that the distinction was about "direct lying", which is not borne out by the examples.

Do we need to go full TRS with this, or would clarifying the descriptions be sufficient? The "direct lying" claim has been there (and the "universal" thing absent) since 2010...

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Nov 14th 2023 at 10:53:47 AM

I thought we couldnt chage the descriptions without TRS...

Well, we have an entire thread for it. Descriptions can be tweaked but the definitions can't be messed with and that's often where the issue lies; sometimes changing the description is synonymous with changing the definition.

@Coachpill if that is the difference between Shoot the Dog and I Did What I Had to Do, it's not indicated in the trope descriptions at all, in fact the trope description of Shoot the Dog seems to contradict your description. You said that I Did What I Had to Do is done in secret but Shoot the Dog is done with full knowledge of the other characters, but the description for Shoot the Dog says that "he may even go so far as to hide it from the rest of the cast (possibly with serious repercussions later) due to the risk of compromising his moral standards". Nor does the page imply that Shoot the Dog is when the character has already promised/committed to something and feels obliged to do it despite the circumstances making it morally questionable, instead it's described as "because current circumstances make it the most pragmatic and logical thing to do" - i.e it is a pragmatic reaction to the current circumstances like your definition of I Did What I Hadto Do.

Interestingly, I Did What I Had to Do gets mentioned on the Shoot the Dog page, with or they might say What the Hell, Hero? to which he might reply I Did What I Had to Do". This seems to imply that I Did What I Had to Do is a stock phrase said by someone who has just shot the dog, and it is listed in the stock phrases index, but I wonder if in practice I Did What I Had to Do is actually used only for when a character says that phrase or something like it or it's just used interchangeably with Shoot the Dog.

Oldest Internet Archive copy of I Did What I Had to Do.

How are Even the Loving Hero Has Hated Ones and Jerkass to One different?

^ Based on a quick check of the laconics:

• Even the Loving Hero Has Hated Ones: A character that normally loves people has at least one person that they actually hate. The keyword here is hate - it is not the same as being mean to someone.
• Jerkass to One: A character that acts like a jerk to just one person in particular. Alternatively they are already a jerkass in general, but they are a bigger jerkass to a select person.

Edited by Eggy0 on Nov 15th 2023 at 5:18:45 PM

Briar Patching is "Reverse Psychology but intentional". But... Reverse Psychology is already intentional?

^ I once tried to bring this to TRS but the thread was declined with the explanation that Reverse Psychology is the general idea of manipulating someone to do anything while Briar Patching is the specific case where you get someone to further your agenda. The question is whether the tropes are actually used this way.

Edited by eroock on Nov 16th 2023 at 10:33:34 PM