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Duplicate tropes discussion thread

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A thread discussing similar tropes.

Note that two tropes being distinct in theory does that mean they are distinct in practice. If participants agree that two (or more) tropes really don't seem distinct enough to be separate, one can start a thread in the Trope Repair Shop for further discussion. A a wick check demonstrating redundancy will likely be required, though.

Before asking "What's the difference between these tropes?", check the Canonical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions and Laconical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions lists. They may contain the answer. Feel free to contribute to them, too.


    Original OP 

I've decided to start a new cleanup thread dealing with trope similarities. This thread is for discussing tropes that appear to be a duplicate of another trope, and if it's agreed upon that the two tropes talked about are similar enough, one should start a thread about it in the Trope Repair Shop.

I'll start with my issue...


Asian Hooker Stereotype and Mighty Whitey and Mellow Yellow are pretty much the same trope—they both involve a white man and an Asian woman.

Edited by Synchronicity on Aug 8th 2024 at 5:29:57 AM

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#2751: Aug 8th 2023 at 11:03:07 PM

yeah related tropes =/= subtrope. Just means "covers something similar or a topic that's connected"

petersohn from Earth, Solar System (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Hiding
#2752: Aug 8th 2023 at 11:09:57 PM

The index is "related tropes", which includes subtropes, so it's legitimately listed there.

Fjón þvæ ég af mér fjanda minna rán og reiði ríkra manna.
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#2753: Aug 8th 2023 at 11:12:36 PM

Then subtropes and related tropes need to be separated.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#2754: Aug 8th 2023 at 11:22:20 PM

[up][up]yes, subtropes are a form of relation, their relation being that they are a more specific version of the trope in discussion. A list of fruits that includes both apple and oranges is not incorrect for doing so despite apples and oranges being two different fruits.

[up]I don't think it needs to be split. The section header is pretty clear about its intentions and it's not inaccurate.

Edited by amathieu13 on Aug 8th 2023 at 2:23:00 PM

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#2755: Aug 8th 2023 at 11:26:20 PM

[up] We organize tropes, and a Sub-Trope is a form of relation that we normally make distinct. While the header true, for the sake of organization it shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Edited by Amonimus on Aug 8th 2023 at 9:27:31 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#2756: Aug 8th 2023 at 11:38:26 PM

[up]A subtrope is something we point out when it's clear, but there are tropes and concepts for which deciding what is a subtrope versus a Sister Trope versus merely a related concept is not always so clear and not really worth trying to thread that needle. Rather than having to adjudicate the line between each one, it is easier and still helpful to list out what is related with the description. Because at the end of the day, the point of these sections of descriptions, whether they are in paragraph or list form, is to help people avoid using one when another trope is more appropriate. It's all for clarifiation on what the differences between tropes are. Values Dissonance is not the first page to have a list of related tropes for clarification purposes and there really is no set rule for this

Edited by amathieu13 on Aug 8th 2023 at 2:39:07 PM

petersohn from Earth, Solar System (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Hiding
#2757: Aug 8th 2023 at 11:44:59 PM

I think this discussion no longer belongs to this thread, but rather the Trope Description Improvement Drive, or maybe there is a thread more specific to organizing indexes?

Fjón þvæ ég af mér fjanda minna rán og reiði ríkra manna.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#2758: Aug 8th 2023 at 11:47:05 PM

I mean...

The only real issue with the list is that it does indexing for some reason. I only pointed out the "not a subtrope" thing because it seemed like that was what the argument was saying.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#2759: Aug 8th 2023 at 11:50:59 PM

[up][up]if you want to have a broader discussion about what should/shouldn't be allowed on trope pages that also index, that'd be for either Trope Talk or Wiki Talk. probably Wiki Talk since it would involve changing multiple different trope pages.

CodyTheWolf810 what was this used for again? from a house Since: Jul, 2023 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#2761: Aug 9th 2023 at 6:26:30 PM

[up]The former is more of a revenge trope (e.g. murdering someone's entire family because he accidentally stepped on your shoes once), the latter is actual government policy (e.g. getting a death sentence over jaywalking).

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
cwallace135 Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: Singularity
#2763: Aug 9th 2023 at 7:17:18 PM

Hello! I’m not sure where else to post this, so I thought this would be the best spot. What is the line that distinguishes a Token Good Teammate from a Token Heroic Orc? Now, I know the difference: a Token Good Teammate is a nice person who is aligned with the bad guys for whatever reason, and stays by the evil team’s side, while a Token Heroic Orc is a good character who used to be aligned with the bad guys, but ended up betraying them. What I don’t understand is what the line is between the two tropes. For example, let’s say that a good character is aligned with the bad guys, stays by their side for a large portion of the work (usually a video game), but eventually betrays them, like with Vivian and Mauvier. Which trope would they be more of, or is it a combination of the two? Thank you!

Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#2764: Aug 9th 2023 at 9:47:02 PM

[up][up]Huh. Never knew about that page until today. I think that one is redundant to Felony Misdemeanor.

petersohn from Earth, Solar System (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Hiding
TotemGenitor Bye Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Bye
#2766: Aug 10th 2023 at 1:06:11 AM

[up][up][up] Both of them are Token Good Teammate, combined with Heel–Face Turn. Token Heroic Orc would requires an entire species oposing the heroes, with one member switching side. Mauvier is an human like the heroes and the Shadow Sirens are numerous enough to count.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#2767: Aug 10th 2023 at 1:07:48 AM

I... don't think either trope requires a Heel–Face Turn, but yeah Token Heroic Orc is for the token good member of an otherwise Always Chaotic Evil species, which is much different than just being the only good guy on an otherwise evil team.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#2768: Aug 10th 2023 at 1:12:18 AM

Actually, Token Heroic Orc can apply to culture/nationality as much as species, I think.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#2769: Aug 10th 2023 at 1:15:14 AM

That may be true, either way though a culture is much different from a team.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
DoctorWTF Since: Jul, 2020
#2770: Aug 13th 2023 at 4:27:49 PM

Regarding Artistic License – Law and Hollywood Law: It seems that Hollywood Law is simply examples of "Artistic License - Law" that don't fit any of its other subtropes, but many of those examples are simply filed directly under "Artistic License - Law". Seems redundant, you think?

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#2771: Aug 13th 2023 at 6:34:06 PM

[up]these two have been brought up before as dupes. at this point, i think it's worth doing a wick check and possibly bringing into TRS

DoctorWTF Since: Jul, 2020
#2772: Aug 13th 2023 at 7:48:57 PM

[up] What would a wick check actually accomplish? The problem here isn't about either trope being used incorrectly.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#2773: Aug 13th 2023 at 7:50:06 PM

Wick checks are for more than misuse. They can also be used to determine basic usage, including if a trope is a dupe.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
eroock Since: Sep, 2012
#2774: Aug 16th 2023 at 9:22:24 PM

Artistic License – History and Hollywood History have a similar issue, although there HH seems to cover stock inaccuracies while ALH is for all else. Same seems to apply to Artistic License – Geography versus Hollywood Atlas. Perhaps that's what was attempted (poorly so) with ALL and HL.

Edited by eroock on Aug 16th 2023 at 6:31:54 PM

MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#2775: Aug 16th 2023 at 11:16:39 PM

[up]That topic was part of what was discussed in TRS. See also the Archived Discussion and the YKTTW linked there.

Edited by MorganWick on Aug 16th 2023 at 11:19:02 AM


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