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A thread discussing similar tropes. If thread participants agree that two (or more) tropes really don't seem distinct enough to be separate, one can start a thread in the Trope Repair Shop for further discussion.

Before asking "What's the difference between these tropes?", check the Canonical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions and Laconical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions lists. They may contain the answer. Feel free to contribute to them, too.


    Original OP 

I've decided to start a new cleanup thread dealing with trope similarities. This thread is for discussing tropes that appear to be a duplicate of another trope, and if it's agreed upon that the two tropes talked about are similar enough, one should start a thread about it in the Trope Repair Shop.

I'll start with my issue...


Asian Hooker Stereotype and Mighty Whitey and Mellow Yellow are pretty much the same trope—they both involve a white man and an Asian woman.

Edited by Tabs on Nov 1st 2022 at 10:57:37 AM

Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#2526: May 27th 2023 at 5:05:00 PM

[up]I think "a program to continuously adapt itself" doesn't suit Instant A.I.: Just Add Water!.

Edited by Amonimus on May 27th 2023 at 3:05:11 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Vandagyre HUH? from Lumiose City, baby! (Fifth Year at Tropey's) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
HUH?
#2527: May 27th 2023 at 7:08:09 PM

What's the difference between Reality TV and Reality Show?

Only took twelve years to get more Kalos lore...
NoUsername i'm at the combination she and it Since: May, 2012
i'm at the combination she and it
#2528: May 27th 2023 at 7:45:52 PM

Reality TV is an index and Reality Show is a trope. Reality TV should probably be renamed to Reality TV Index or something

RavenWilder Raven Wilder Since: Apr, 2009
Raven Wilder
#2529: May 27th 2023 at 8:14:00 PM

So, however I try interpreting the description of Ridiculously Average Guy, it sounds like it's either the same thing as The Generic Guy, The Everyman, or possibly Indubitably Uninteresting Individual. What's the diff?

Edited by RavenWilder on May 27th 2023 at 8:14:40 AM

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#2530: May 28th 2023 at 3:50:47 AM

[up] Looking at the archived discussion, the question was raised over a decade ago. I think it's a relic from before those other tropes were properly defined.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
BlackMage43 Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#2531: May 31st 2023 at 10:49:44 PM

Agent Scully vs Flat-Earth Atheist vs Scully Syndrome?

Edited by BlackMage43 on May 31st 2023 at 10:51:16 AM

petersohn from Earth, Solar System (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Hiding
#2532: May 31st 2023 at 11:57:53 PM

My guess is that Flat-Earth Atheist happens in a world where the thing the character disbelieves is an established fact, such as Physical Gods or magic, while Agent Scully is the case when the paranormal shouldn't exist, but there is just too much evidence that it does instead. In other words, Agent Scully is less absurd. Agent Scully and Scully Syndrome seems to be redundant at first sight though.

The universe is under no obligation to make sense to us.
NoUsername i'm at the combination she and it Since: May, 2012
i'm at the combination she and it
#2533: Jun 1st 2023 at 12:56:31 AM

they're on Tropes Needing TRS for that exact reason

Agent Scully is a sister trope to Agent Mulder, at least, so if it gets merged with Flat-Earth Atheist the latter should also be renamed

Edited by NoUsername on Jun 1st 2023 at 12:57:04 PM

AnoneMouseJr Since: Nov, 2010
#2535: Jun 1st 2023 at 3:49:57 AM

[up] As I'm reading it, Loves My Alter Ego and Hates My Secret Identity are two halves of the same concept, basically — loving the costumed identity over being indifferent to the person under the mask, and liking the costumed identity but hating the person under the mask, respectively. Likes Clark Kent, Hates Superman is an inversion of both, but as a single trope rather than two.

Until next time...

Anon e Mouse Jr.

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#2536: Jun 1st 2023 at 4:09:28 AM

[up][up]I actually have an unfinished wick check on exactly these three tropes because of the confusion: Sandbox.Hates My Secret Identity. I still need to do Loves My Alter Ego but I think all three could benefit from edits to the description to better clarify the differences.

I also think that in general, there's confusion about what Secret Identity is meant to refer to: some people treat Secret Identity as a superhero's civilian persona and that's how the page is defined, but there are a few examples that treat the superhero persona as the Secret Identity, I can imagine using the logic of "the civilian is trying to keep the fact that they are a superhero a secret" being the reason why.

Edited by amathieu13 on Jun 1st 2023 at 9:39:51 AM

StalkerGamer Four Eyes, Zero Soul Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Love is an open door
#2537: Jun 1st 2023 at 6:34:31 AM

The three examples might overlap with each other, so maybe an expansion of all of them, or a fusion with some of the tropes might be good.

molokai198 Since: Oct, 2012
#2538: Jun 1st 2023 at 1:07:32 PM

Standard Cop Backstory seems like it's just Dark and Troubled Past but specifically for cop shows. It lists just about every kind of Dark and Troubled Past you could think of as potential backstories, so it's not really singling out one specific kind of backstory that is common for cops, it's too generic for that. Why exactly do we have this trope instead of just having a note on Dark and Troubled Past saying it's commonly used in cop shows?

Also should someone clarify the difference between Supporting Protagonist and First-Person Peripheral Narrator, besides that the former can exist in stories without a first person narrator? Intuitively it feels like there's a difference in that the story is still about the Supporting Protagonist in some way, but I can't really pin down or define what it is.

Edited by molokai198 on Jun 2nd 2023 at 4:12:32 AM

themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#2539: Jun 3rd 2023 at 9:26:27 AM

Screen-to-Stage Adaptation vs. Live on Stage!? Was poking around old TLPs of tropes I found via Random Trope and concerns over overlap were raised, with the trope launching anyway despite having 11 bombs. Dupes, or no?

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jun 3rd 2023 at 12:26:38 PM

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
mightymewtron Angry babby from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Angry babby
#2540: Jun 3rd 2023 at 8:25:41 PM

It was discussed in the TLP itself, but Live on Stage! is typically for a specific kind of lower-budget touring production, almost always aimed at children. It even lays out the specific differences in the description.

Edited by mightymewtron on Jun 3rd 2023 at 11:25:59 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Noaqiyeum Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they) from the gentle and welcoming dark (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they)
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#2543: Jun 4th 2023 at 12:11:41 PM

One isn't story relevant and the other isn't a motif.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#2544: Jun 4th 2023 at 12:12:12 PM

Arc Number is a number that recurs throughout the work somehow (doesn't have to be meaningful beyond the recurrence) while Numerological Motif appears to be a number that is thematically meaningful to the story or character (doesn't have to recur).

Edited by Synchronicity on Jun 4th 2023 at 2:12:23 PM

Noaqiyeum Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they) from the gentle and welcoming dark (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they)
#2545: Jun 4th 2023 at 12:18:19 PM

Recurrence makes it meaningful, though. 4-8-15-16-23-42 are a sequence of arbitrary numbers that acquired a meaning by being repeated in the context of mystery - even an in-joke is a meaning.

The title, page quote, and most (but not all) of the examples on Numerological Motif all involve numbers used with reference to an understood cultural meaning, i.e. numerology, and the description on Arc Number uses that to distinguish them ("for discussions of the significance of certain numbers across multiple works, see Numerological Motif"). But the Numerological Motif description doesn't say that, or mention Arc Number at all. Meanwhile, a lot of Arc Number examples are numerological, too (Goroawase Number, Rule of Three, Four Is Death, etc).

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#2546: Jun 4th 2023 at 12:20:39 PM

You can have an Arc Number that also has a Numerological Motif, and you have something with a Numerological Motif that is also a Arc Number. But the two cover separate areas.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Noaqiyeum Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they) from the gentle and welcoming dark (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they)
#2547: Jun 4th 2023 at 2:41:32 PM

Okay, but does Numerological Motif require the meaning be shared with other works, like Arc Number says, or does it just have to have a theme associated with it?

(Also, isn't a motif that isn't repeated in association with its meaning just a symbol?)

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#2548: Jun 4th 2023 at 3:13:01 PM

Arc Number doesn't say Numerological Motif shares meaning across multiple works though?

Though it shouldn't say "For discussions of the significance" because that's sounds like Analysis.Numerological Motif and not the trope.

Anyway,

  • A number appears at least one that has some reason behind it, commonly 7, 13, 108, 666. It's used in someone's theme or philosophy. It's a Numerological Motif.
  • A number appears multiple times at certain points. Regardless if the number itself has a meaning, these moments later in the story revealed to be related to the mystery. It's Arc Number.

Looking at it, a lot of examples Numerological Motif have no motif and are "the work has a lot of things that are in X amount", which is closer to Arc Number.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Noaqiyeum Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they) from the gentle and welcoming dark (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they)
#2549: Jun 5th 2023 at 10:31:22 AM

...what's the distinction between "significance of numbers across multiple works" and "shared meaning"? The one necessarily implies the other to me - the reason 3, 4, 7, 12, 52, 69, 108, or 666 are significant across multiple works is because all those works are ascribing them meaning based on a common cultural reference pool. If it's just the same number showing up with no meaningful connection (e.g. Doctor Who S29 E7 "42" is probably not a Hitchhiker's Guide reference) then the significance is contained within each work.

(Otherwise, your summary makes sense to me and I think elaborating that in the Numerological Motif description would be a good idea.)

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Jun 5th 2023 at 6:33:12 PM

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable
molokai198 Since: Oct, 2012
#2550: Jun 5th 2023 at 3:06:26 PM

About Agent Scully and Flat-Earth Atheist, I feel there could definitely be a trope about a skeptic paired with a believer regardless of if the skeptic is portrayed as wrong and illogical given what is known about the setting.


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