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X-Men: Dark Phoenix

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alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
Aug 22nd 2019 at 9:01:57 PM

That following proves both those claims wrong.
No, it doesn't. A small group of people interpreting the film in a way that it probably wasn't meant to be interpreted isn't subtext. I'm not saying they can't interpret it as a mental illness, but that in no way makes it part of the film as subtext. Subtext is intentional.

Edited by alliterator on Aug 22nd 2019 at 9:03:33 AM

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Aug 22nd 2019 at 9:08:22 PM

No, it doesn't. A small group of people interpreting the film in a way that it probably wasn't meant to be interpreted isn't subtext. I'm not saying they can't interpret it as a mental illness, but that in no way makes it part of the film as subtext. Subtext is intentional.

That was an intentional subtext according to the cast and crew.

alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
Aug 22nd 2019 at 9:36:21 PM

No, they didn't. Sophie Turner said she researched schizophrenia when researching the role, but that was about how she should portray the character, not about the subtext of the movie itself. Especially since it makes so very little sense — the "mental illness" in this case is an outside force that changes her and not something that she's been living with.

If you like the film, that's fine. If you see yourself within the film, that's fine. But saying there is subtext about "mental illness" is just wrong. For one thing — which mental illness? Autism? BPD? There is hundreds of different "mental illnesses" and the movie does little to say which one Jean represents — because, really, the only thing she represents is the Hollywood Version of Schizophrenia, the "I Hear Voices" version, the version that is totally lazy and even cruel, considering it causes her to kill someone. It's basically saying "Hey, mentally ill people are dangerous!" But that's not even subtext, that's just the text.

Having Dark Phoenix as a metaphor for mental illness is worse than having mutants be a metaphor for minorities.

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Aug 22nd 2019 at 10:32:13 PM

No, they didn't.

According to this Glamour article they did. Apparently, that is what Simon Kinberg meant by grounding the movie in reality that he kept going on and on about. They wanted to parallel a real world problem.

because, really, the only thing she represents is the Hollywood Version of Schizophrenia, the "I Hear Voices" version, the version that is totally lazy

She has a few of the other symptoms of schizophrenia. Jean had became paranoid, becoming suspicious of Xavier thinking that he used her for her powers and thought that he was out to kill her. She isolated herself from her friends and family. And of course, the impulsive aggression she shows throughout.

even cruel, considering it causes her to kill someone. It's basically saying "Hey, mentally ill people are dangerous!" But that's not even subtext, that's just the text.

Which was a totally accident(said so yourself). Jean wanted her to get away from but didn’t know she would hit that wooden spike.

Edited by ManOfSin on Aug 22nd 2019 at 1:40:37 PM

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Aug 22nd 2019 at 10:49:41 PM

It feels like this thread has effectively become Man Of Sin trying to rehabilitate the film reaching farther than Thomas Hearns and Alliterator shooting him down. Rinse and repeat. Quite tiresome, honestly.

"Cobras Fumantes eterna é sua vitória!"
alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
Aug 22nd 2019 at 10:52:36 PM

Apparently, that is what Simon Kinberg meant by grounding the movie in reality that he kept going on and on about. They wanted to parallel a real world problem.
Actually, it sounds as if he wanted to use the tropes of mental illness without actually using any mental illnesses.

They wanted to parallel a real world problem.
Then they failed completely.

Jean had became paranoid, becoming suspicious of Xavier thinking that he used her for her powers and thought that he was out to kill her. She isolated herself from her friends and family. And of course, the impulsive aggression she shows throughout.
All of those things are part of the Hollywood Version of Mental Illness, especially the paranoia and aggression.

Which was a totally accident(said so yourself). Jean wanted her to get away from but didn’t know she would hit that wooden spike.
I never said it wasn't an accident, I said the movie is saying "Look, she's mentally ill, which makes her dangerous. Look at her accidentally kill someone!" Most mentally ill people don't hurt anyone but themselves and are often the victims of violence, but Dark Phoenix revels in the scenes where Jean is attacking people.

This isn't even talking about how the "illness" is, again, an outside force and for most of the film, Jean is not in control of it and only takes control at the end when Xavier helps her.

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Aug 22nd 2019 at 11:15:16 PM

[up][up]

It feels like this thread has effectively become Man Of Sin trying to rehabilitate the film reaching farther than Thomas Hearns and Alliterator shooting him down. Rinse and repeat. Quite tiresome, honestly.

What points did he shot down exactly? He actually misread what my point at first. No offense to Alliterator but he didn’t address a couple of my counters.

And please, try to be civil.

[up]

Actually, it sounds as if he wanted to use the tropes of mental illness without actually using any mental illnesses.

Anyway, that proves it was intentional.

Then they failed completely.

Not according to a couple of mental health doctors.

All of those things are part of the Hollywood Version of Mental Illness, especially the paranoia and aggression.

I did some research of on the subject a few days ago and those are real world symptoms.

Most mentally ill people don't hurt anyone but themselves and are often the victims of violence, but Dark Phoenix revels in the scenes where Jean is attacking people.

Revel? It’s played up for drama. They even said they made this movie to be a drama.

Edited by ManOfSin on Aug 22nd 2019 at 2:18:21 PM

Tuckerscreator Icon by Umayma @coIoured_braids from Traveling through the Multiverse Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Icon by Umayma @coIoured_braids
Aug 22nd 2019 at 11:27:38 PM

Watch this, I can see into the future. The next following posts will consist of endless arguing, reposting ad nauseam, repeating the same things, just stubborn opinions bouncing off each other for eternity.

I am a psychic.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Aug 22nd 2019 at 11:29:04 AM

alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
Aug 22nd 2019 at 11:29:23 PM

I did some research of on the subject a few days ago and those are real world symptoms.
Of what? Which mental illness? PTSD? Schizophrenia? BPD? Autism? Because there are literally hundreds of mental illnesses. And I'm not saying those symptoms don't correspond to some of them, but they do always correspond to the Hollywood Version of Mental Illness, which is reductive and stupid.

Anyway, that proves it was intentional.
It proves that they intentionally wanted to use the trope of mental illness without doing any of the work, yes. The "subtext" of the film, then, is far more dangerous than simply "Jean has a mental illness." It's "Jean has a mental illness and therefore she's dangerous to everyone around her until an old white guy helps her and then she's fine except she dies, sorry, explodes and 'turns into something else.'"

You know, when I put it all like that, it really does seem like Jean dies in this film, because whatever is left at the end isn't Jean.

Not according to a couple of mental health doctors.
Those doctors are interpreting a film (which I doubt they actually saw, but rather were told about) through the lens of what they know. This is called Applicability, but it's also something that the writers of the actual movie may not have known or thought about. Most of what these doctors are talking about in the film are actually tropes in Hollywood movies and therefore we can Occam's Razor that this is why they were used and not because they have anything to do with mental illness.

But hey, let me quote the article itself:

"Depending on how you interpret the ending (warning: spoilers ahead!), it might not be the most hopeful depiction of this mental disorder. Grey sacrificing herself to save the world from this unstoppable power could be interpreted as a “failure to recover from an intense life threatening trauma,” Dr. Letamendi reasons."

These doctors literally state that the ending of the film is a bad ending.

Revel? It’s played up for drama. They even said they made this movie to be a drama.
Exactly. Everything is played for maximum drama, as opposed to playing it as something real. But the drama falls flat because we've seen it all before.

Edited by alliterator on Aug 22nd 2019 at 11:30:52 AM

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
AyyItsMidnight Ordinary Corrupt Android Love
Ordinary Corrupt Android Love
Aug 22nd 2019 at 11:38:50 PM

It is kind of a shame to see this franchise that helped superhero movies get back on the map go so awry at the points when it did, and that one of those points ended up being the swan song for these movies bites hard. At least I have Logan and the Deadpools to come back to.

BECOME AS GORBS BECOME AS GORBS | Twitter
Aug 23rd 2019 at 12:25:44 AM

Of what? Which mental illness? PTSD? Schizophrenia? BPD? Autism? Because there are literally hundreds of mental illnesses. And I'm not saying those symptoms don't correspond to some of them, but they do always correspond to the Hollywood Version of Mental Illness, which is reductive and stupid.

Well, like I said in my post those are symptoms of schizophrenia which is what they did research on. Schizophrenia has such a wide variety of symptoms that is often confused with other mental health issues(such as bipolar disorder). That would explain why people with mental health issues other than schizophrenia found Jean’s struggle relatable.

It proves that they intentionally wanted to use the trope of mental illness without doing any of the work, yes.

Well they did do the work according to that article. Reading books on the subject matter and watched documentaries on people’s who experience the condition.

The "subtext" of the film, then, is far more dangerous than simply "Jean has a mental illness." It's "Jean has a mental illness and therefore she's dangerous to everyone around her until an old white guy helps her and then she's fine except she dies, sorry, explodes and 'turns into something else.'" You know, when I put it all like that, it really does seem like Jean dies in this film, because whatever is left at the end isn't Jean.

That reminds me of some people interpreting the race and queer metaphor as a bad thing because people actually have a reason to fear mutants. Which I don’t agree with either, but whatever. At least you acknowledge the subtext.

Don’t see how Jean becoming a god is a bad thing.

Those doctors are interpreting a film (which I doubt they actually saw, but rather were told about) through the lens of what they know. This is called Applicability, but it's also something that the writers of the actual movie may not have known or thought about. Most of what these doctors are talking about in the film are actually tropes in Hollywood movies and therefore we can Occam's Razor that this is why they were used and not because they have anything to do with mental illness.

Dr. Andrea Letamendi definitely saw that movie. Look her up, she is into comic books. She went on Nerdist and Den of Geeks talking about it.

But hey, let me quote the article itself:

These doctors literally state that the ending of the film is a bad ending.

They literally said it depends on who you interpret the ending and she didn’t really “sacrifice” herself so it’s not really a problem.

Exactly. Everything is played for maximum drama, as opposed to playing it as something real. But the drama falls flat because we've seen it all before.

I’m going to have to agree to disagree with you on this point.

Edited by ManOfSin on Aug 23rd 2019 at 7:09:24 AM

RavenWilder Raven Wilder
Raven Wilder
Aug 23rd 2019 at 1:03:47 AM

Subtext doesn't have to be intentional, Death of the Author and all that. That's especially the case for collaborative projects like movies, as even if you do limit the subtext to what was intended, you have to ask "intended by whom?"

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
Aug 23rd 2019 at 1:18:20 AM

the "mental illness" in this case is an outside force that changes her and not something that she's been living with.

This isn't even talking about how the "illness" is, again, an outside force

I forgot to address this. Jean’s situation was caused by her psychic mind being fragile aka genetics, the childhood trauma she suffered, and a cosmic force altering her body. It was a combination of factors. Like I said earlier, all the force did was enhance her powers, it didn’t really alter her way of thinking.

The exact cause of schizophrenia isn’t known. But like with Jean’s condition it is believed to be a combination of genetics, environment such as childhood trauma, and altered brain chemistry and structure (outside forces).

Edited by ManOfSin on Aug 23rd 2019 at 6:38:53 AM

Aug 23rd 2019 at 5:10:15 AM

It feels like this thread has effectively become Man Of Sin trying to rehabilitate the film reaching farther than Thomas Hearns and Alliterator shooting him down. Rinse and repeat. Quite tiresome, honestly.

Really? Because he didn’t really disagree with him on people misunderstanding the ending thinking Jean was dead and gone. Speaking of which.

In fact, another character says "She's gone," which is usually a euphemism for "she's dead."

Xavier actually corrected Scott and said “she’s free”. I’ve seen some people straight up say they simply miss that shot of the firebird.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelatFox/comments/ckwh0y/why_do_so_many_people_think_jean_died_in_dark/ew0n5oi/

People were just not being that attentive it seems.

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Aug 23rd 2019 at 8:40:06 AM

alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
Aug 23rd 2019 at 6:52:59 AM

Xavier actually corrected Scott and said “she’s free”.
Which is another euphemism for dead.

Well, like I said in my post those are symptoms of schizophrenia which is what they did research on.
Yes, I know, but the reason they chose schizophrenia is pretty obvious: because they can easily portray the Hollywood Version of it, with Paranoia and Voices and Multiple Personalities and so on. And leave out, you know, the symptoms that Hollywood often doesn't portray, like disorganized thinking and visual hallucinations, inability to express pleasure, lack of motivation, little emotion, and aphasia.

Look, there are dozens of symptoms of schizophrenia, but the ones the chose to portray in the movie are literally the ones that Hollywood always portrays in order to make mentally ill people seem scary and monstrous. Saying, "But they researched schizophrenia!" just makes what they did worse, because then they knew better and did it anyway.

Well they did do the work according to that article.
No, Sophie Turner did the work. They gave her a big book on schizophrenia and told her that's how they wanted her to portray the Phoenix and that was it.

That reminds me of some people interpreting the race and queer metaphor as a bad thing because people actually have a reason to fear mutants.
Yes, that is a valid criticism. LGBTQ people generally can't fire lasers from their eyes or kill people with a thought. This is where the "mutant metaphor" breaks down. It's also why saying "Jean's condition is a metaphor for schizophrenia" also doesn't work.

Don’t see how Jean becoming a god is a bad thing.
Except that was the entire point of the original Dark Phoenix Saga.

They literally said it depends on who you interpret the ending and she didn’t really “sacrifice” herself so it’s not really a problem.
I know, but that's the way a medical professional interpreted it. And yes, she did sacrifice herself. That was kind of the point of the ending.

Like I said earlier, all the force did was enhance her powers, it didn’t really alter her way of thinking.
Then maybe you missed something when you watched the film, because the cosmic force definitely does alter the way she acts and thinks (you know, since it tears down the psychic blocks Xavier put there). Here, I can even quote Wikipedia: "Xavier confers with Jean within his mind, allowing Jean's personality to gain control of the force within her." So it did quite a bit more than just "alter her power."

All your posts are just trying to make excuses for a mediocre film. Hell, Jean is supposed to be the main character, but the attention of the film is often on anyone but her and gives other characters weird characterizations that don't make sense:

  • Nightcrawler goes on a murderous rampage because some guy he barely knew was killed.
  • Beast decides that Jean must die for killing Mystique even though he knows it was an accident and that an outside force has changed Jean.
  • Magneto agrees for some reason, even though Jean has only killed one person and Magneto has killed literally thousands.
  • Genosha is wasted.
  • The aliens are bland as fuck.

Edited by alliterator on Aug 23rd 2019 at 6:54:10 AM

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Aug 23rd 2019 at 10:31:59 AM

Yes, I know, but the reason they chose schizophrenia is pretty obvious:

Or maybe it is because Jean’s out of control telepathy causes her to hear voices in her head and thus they chose the metaphor to be schizophrenia.

I mean Jean wasn’t actually imagining those voices, those were the thoughts of others. An idea they played with in Days of Future Past with Xavier, but that didn’t have the schizophrenia subtext.

No, Sophie Turner did the work. They gave her a big book on schizophrenia and told her that's how they wanted her to portray the Phoenix and that was it.

According to Glamour article both Sophie Turner and Simon Kinberg had sent each other documents back and forth. So Sophie was not the only one that did research.

Yes, that is a valid criticism. LGBTQ people generally can't fire lasers from their eyes or kill people with a thought. This is where the "mutant metaphor" breaks down. It's also why saying "Jean's condition is a metaphor for schizophrenia" also doesn't work.

Cool.

Except that was the entire point of the original Dark Phoenix Saga.

Arguably, but then Claremont created Rachel who can handled the same godlike power. But that is a bit off track.

I know, but that's the way a medical professional interpreted it. And yes, she did sacrifice herself. That was kind of the point of the ending.

Pretty sure she thinks Jean had “sacrificed” herself in a different matter.

Then maybe you missed something when you watched the film, because the cosmic force definitely does alter the way she acts and thinks (you know, since it tears down the psychic blocks Xavier put there).

It torn down psychic blocks that held back memories and trauma. It didn’t directly affect her behavior.

Here, I can even quote Wikipedia: "Xavier confers with Jean within his mind, allowing Jean's personality to gain control of the force within her." So it did quite a bit more than just "alter her power."

A plot summary on Wikipedia is not exactly something you should use to try to prove a point. Not to mention it is wrong.

All your posts are just trying to make excuses for a mediocre film.

Well none of my points really fit the definition of excuse but whatever.

As for the rest of your post: you have problems with it? Okay, but that is not related to my point. It seems that you mistakenly think I have a problem with all criticisms, which isn’t true.

Edited by ManOfSin on Aug 23rd 2019 at 4:15:33 AM

Aug 23rd 2019 at 12:20:11 PM

Which is another euphemism for dead.

Not really. He is alluding to the fact that she is still out there as shown in the final shot.

Hell, Jean is supposed to be the main character, but the attention of the film is often on anyone but her

The only other character that got significant screentime was Xavier. Magneto doesn’t show up until over halfway through the movie.

But of course other characters got attention, the X-Men movies are ensembles.

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Aug 23rd 2019 at 3:24:17 PM

alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
Aug 23rd 2019 at 12:31:10 PM

Not really. He is alluding to the fact that she is still out there as shown in the final shot.
He might be, but it sounds like he's saying that she's dead.

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Aug 23rd 2019 at 7:43:53 PM

This discussion just reminded me of an interview with Sophie I read a couple months back. She explicitly said there are mental health undertones/subtext in the movie.

“I felt like I’d won a contest,” grins Turner. “Every time I was on set, I thought: I shouldn’t be here. It was mad to have one-on-one scenes with Jess or Jen or Michael.” Her character, Jean Grey, already in possession of superpowers, comes into more extreme abilities following an accident in space. “There are very clear mental health undertones to it,” she explains. “There’s a loss of control over her mind and her powers, representative of schizophrenia, dissociative identity disorder and addiction.”

https://www.net-a-porter.com/us/en/porter/article-600de9fdc569eadf/cover-stories/cover-stories/sophie-turner

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Aug 23rd 2019 at 10:58:14 AM

alliterator professional crastinator from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
professional crastinator
Aug 24th 2019 at 1:41:39 AM

No, it isn't. Because while they might have wanted to have mental undertones to it, the actual thing demonizes mental illness so much, it just makes it worse. They might have done research, but they didn't use any of that research to make it more realistic or similar to, you know, reality. A reality where mentally ill people are more like to get hurt or killed, rather than be the killer.

Dark Phoenix thinks it's making a point about something, but anything it's trying to do just collapses under the weight of its baggage and it's own inability to a story, leaving a movie that's a muddled mess and that has zero point to it.

Edited by alliterator on Aug 24th 2019 at 1:43:24 AM

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
slimcoder Insane Religious Murderbot
Insane Religious Murderbot
Aug 24th 2019 at 1:53:44 AM

Again the movies fucking dead, it bombed so terribly Marvel is working their collective asses off trying to fix the X-Brand after DP horribly tainted it.

So all this debate is pretty much moot in the end.

Nobody is innocent, there are merely varying levels of guilt. Oh and Primus hates you.
Aug 24th 2019 at 2:57:37 AM

[up]

Stop making pointless posts, please.

slimcoder Insane Religious Murderbot
Insane Religious Murderbot
Aug 24th 2019 at 2:59:39 AM

Then stop having a pointless debate.

This is unending, its a constant back & forth of the same stuff over & over again for multiple pages.

Its just one long conversation. Nothing new is being said.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 24th 2019 at 3:01:02 AM

Nobody is innocent, there are merely varying levels of guilt. Oh and Primus hates you.
Nightwire Humans inferior. Ultron superior. Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Humans inferior. Ultron superior.
Aug 24th 2019 at 9:20:53 AM

I have to agree with slimcoder here. I am very annoyed at having to open this thread every time and see nothing but you three having this endless argument that goes nowhere.

This movie is done. The Fo X-Men universe is done. No one cares any more. There is nothing interesting going on in this thread any more. If you still want to argue with each other, I suggest taking it to P Ms.

Bite my shiny Vibranium ass, Avengers.

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