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ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#1576: Jan 22nd 2024 at 10:28:02 AM

I think the pacing problem comes from the fact that they don't imitate Tolkien in their story telling style.

Tolkien described the journey. The plot of Ro P is Galadriel travel to Dúrnost and finds a clue where Sauron is. She returns to Lindon and then travels to Numenor in order to get an army, having found Sauron on the way. Having solved the clue, she brings Sauron and the army to Mordor. That is a lot of traveling but where are the adventures in-between? Especially on the trip to Mordor, she probably has to travel through other Kingdoms. The best way I think would be to sail up the Anduin, as this allows them to spend the most time on water. Then they would disembark near the future site of Osgilath, and then travel through the future Morgul Vale.

Tolkien would probably have written a scene for each of these. This would establish the sense of scale, but also could set up the future conflicts, because the area is going to first be conquered by Sauron, and then liberated by Numenor and then become Gondor.

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1577: Jan 22nd 2024 at 11:55:31 AM

A pleasure postponed.

Well, in that circumstance we would presumably not have known that Hobbits would be due to be introduced, and so wouldn't be savouring the pleasure to come.

From our point of view, there would just be no Hobbits.

Of course, this would show that the name Southlands was ridiculous.

I don't see much ridiculous about it: as long as it was named by someone to their north, it makes sense.

(Even if there are other lands even further south.)

Still, the next season is probably not going to skip the forging of the other rings, and I am pretty sure it will include the fall of Numenor, because the actors discussed it before Season 1 came out.

Did they say that it would happen in Season 2, specifically?

I would think it more likely for, say, Season 3, I think. Maybe even Season 4.

Indeed, I note that our page indicates that the series is intended to run for "at least five seasons". If I recall the course of things correctly, I would expect the Fall of Numenor to happen a little later in that sequence than the second season.

As to Season 2 and the Nazgul, I could see a large portion of Season 2's plot revolving around them: introduce the kings of men early in the season, with the forging of the Rings of Power running parallel. Then have Sauron seize the rings partway through the season and distribute them.

(Or maybe have the distribution happen at the end of the season, in parallel to the ending of the first season.)

If they were going to play who is Sauron, a few colonial governors and native kings would have been better red herings than obviously Gandalf.

You say "obvious", but I recall that I for one seriously considered that he might be Sauron at certain points.

And, well, Sauron did turn out to be ostensibly a native king, after all. :P

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ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#1578: Jan 23rd 2024 at 11:08:36 AM

Then the supposed king of the land should use a different name, and the elves should use a elvish name. The elves would be aware of the lands to the south of Mordor. Directly north of Mordor are the gardens of the Entwives...

Sauron was obviously Sauron and Gandalf obviously Gandalf, the only argument against that was that it was too obvious.

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1579: Jan 24th 2024 at 4:49:54 AM

Then the supposed king of the land should use a different name, and the elves should use a elvish name.

I'm not sure of what you're saying here.

What other name should Halbrand use, and why? What's wrong with his name?

And what other name should the elves use, and why would they?

The elves would be aware of the lands to the south of Mordor.

I'm not saying that they wouldn't be.

But there are two reasons that I see, offhand, for the Southlands being so named:
1) They're the lands in the southern part of a larger region.
2) Those so naming the place were conflating them with the other lands to the south.

Both of which seem plausible.

Sauron was obviously Sauron and Gandalf obviously Gandalf, the only argument against that was that it was too obvious.

What's obvious to one isn't necessarily obvious to another. we each have our separate perceptual filters.

Plus there were a various red-herrings that pointed in other directions, as I recall.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Jan 24th 2024 at 2:50:21 PM

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ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#1580: Jan 24th 2024 at 5:18:26 AM

I guess the name Southlands makes sense if it refers to multiple lands in the south. Although, there are known lands directly south of Mordor. Elves tend to use the elvish name for places. Granted, in Lot R most place names outside of the Shire are elvish. If Halbrand is supposed to be a native to the Southlands, then he would use the native name.

In Lot R pretty much every old man with a beard is a wizard, so the idea that meteor man is a wizard is the first thing that comes to people's mind.

Anyone familiar with the Lore would know that Sauron took a fair form at this time. This is commonly interpreted to mean he disguised himself as an elf, however it isn't explicity said. Because Halbrand wasn't in the lore, there was also a question of who he is. He probably would have been the top guess for who Sauron is, even if that wasn't the case, but they kinda tipped their hand before the show started.

I can see someone who is ignorant of the lore, thinking Halbrand was just a love interest. By Tolkien fans who knew these things were talking about them as soon as the teasers got out.

But these mystery box story telling means that instead of giving Halbrand character development they were focused on both giving hints and misleading the audience.

Edited by ry4n on Jan 24th 2024 at 5:30:02 AM

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1581: Jan 24th 2024 at 7:13:14 AM

Elves tend to use the elvish name for places. Granted, in Lot R most place names outside of the Shire are elvish. If Halbrand is supposed to be a native to the Southlands, then he would use the native name.

Ah, I see! You were referring to the names of the lands there, not the character himself.

On the one hand, you do have a point: I would expect those lands to have multiple names. (See the various names that countries in our world have in various languages and places.)

On the other, in a TV series that complicates things, potentially confusing what place is being spoken of. It's something that I'd expect to be done only sparingly, if at all.

In Lot R pretty much every old man with a beard is a wizard, so the idea that meteor man is a wizard is the first thing that comes to people's mind.

Oh, it was a possibility—but hardly a necessity.

Anyone familiar with the Lore would know that Sauron took a fair form at this time.

Of course—but he was also a master shapeshifter (as demonstrated by his acolyte in the show). So it's hardly out of the question that he "landed" as an aged figure, and would then take his fair form later.

After all, as of the landing he hadn't yet approached the elves as "Annatar".

Because Halbrand wasn't in the lore, there was also a question of who he is. He probably would have been the top guess for who Sauron is ...

He certainly was a guess—but there were plenty of hints and clues in one direction or another that kept people guessing.

I can see someone who is ignorant of the lore, thinking Halbrand was just a love interest. By Tolkien fans who knew these things were talking about them as soon as the teasers got out.

To be clear, I am aware of the lore myself, and was amongst those discussing the identity of Sauron on this forum.

As I recall, one of the leading theories back then was that "Meteor Man" was Sauron.

But these mystery box story telling means that instead of giving Halbrand character development they were focused on both giving hints and misleading the audience.

Halbrand had character development.

And I for one enjoyed the mystery box, as I recall.

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blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#1582: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:52:12 AM

[up][up]Theoden and Gamling, famously wizards

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#1583: Jan 24th 2024 at 11:53:48 AM

Halbrand: From the southlands

Also Halbrand: Northern accent

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
shiro_okami Since: Apr, 2010
#1584: Jan 24th 2024 at 5:14:38 PM

The problem is that the writers spent too much on misleading the audience that The Reveal of Halbrand being Sauron came off as confusing. A good reveal has the audience realizing it all makes sense in hindsight. But some of Halbrand's characterization beforehand did not match up with The Reveal; at least that's how I saw it.

Edited by shiro_okami on Jan 24th 2024 at 8:16:04 AM

Luisdalas Since: Sep, 2023
#1585: Jan 24th 2024 at 5:18:26 PM

I just assumed Halbrand was there to be a love interest, I don't know why everyone assumed he was Sauron.

ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#1586: Jan 25th 2024 at 9:00:22 AM

What I mean by it being obvious is not that another explanation wasn't possible, but that it is the first thought that one has. Basically the meteor man was either a wizard, or a trick. In mysteries it is usual to expect a certain amount of misdirection. "It is always the one you least expect" as the saying goes.

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1587: Jan 26th 2024 at 7:26:19 AM

What I mean by it being obvious is not that another explanation wasn't possible, but that it is the first thought that one has.

That means that it was obvious to you, under your personal perceptual filters—but doesn't necessarily imply that it was obvious to others.

As I recall, it certainly didn't seem to be the first thought in this thread. There was plenty of guessing!

But some of Halbrand's characterization beforehand did not match up with The Reveal; at least that's how I saw it.

Speaking for myself, I think that I had the opposite reaction. (Although it has been a while, so I'm not certain of that.)

But this stuff really does come down to individual interpretation, so fair enough!

... I don't know why everyone assumed he was Sauron.

I mean, from what I saw, I'm pretty sure that most people (here, at least) didn't.

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BigBadShadow25 With my last breath, I curse Zoidberg. from Basement at the Alamo (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Desperate
With my last breath, I curse Zoidberg.
#1588: May 14th 2024 at 6:48:20 AM
SAwatching from south africa Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1589: May 14th 2024 at 10:20:50 AM

Looks awsome. Tone seems to be darker and I even wonder from some of the clips if this is the begining of the War of Sauron and the elves.

One of the lines makes me think of a theory that the youtube and all round tolkien fanboy Nerd of the Rings had. That Sauron has actually been mingling and manipulating the elves for ages and the final of season one was the coup de grace.

Sincerely S Awatching.
Edward45 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1590: May 14th 2024 at 10:49:20 AM

Wow, Sauron is like Clark Kent now.

BigBadShadow25 With my last breath, I curse Zoidberg. from Basement at the Alamo (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Desperate
ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1592: May 14th 2024 at 3:14:30 PM

Ooooh, I'm sorry, but this looks so cool!

And yes! It looks like we are indeed getting Annatar! :D

I am excited for this season! :D

[edit] Also: A date for the season: August 29! ^_^

[edit 2] Also also: I don't know who or what Worm Boy was, but they look cool, so I'm onboard for now. ^_^

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on May 14th 2024 at 12:18:17 PM

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theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#1593: May 14th 2024 at 6:04:40 PM

Yeah, it actually does kind of look better than Season 1. We see Annatar, the Fall of Eregion, an Eagle, and apparently Durin's Bane makes its move.

SAwatching from south africa Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1594: May 15th 2024 at 12:20:42 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfddhM-LMnc&t=1s

So nerd of the rings has done a breakdown and I think it rather cool some of the theories he come up with such as barrow-wight.

Edited by SAwatching on May 15th 2024 at 9:21:36 PM

Sincerely S Awatching.
ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1595: May 16th 2024 at 4:20:30 AM

You know, I find it interesting that the teaser was so explicit about Sauron's presence amongst the Elves. One might expect it to be kept back as a twist.

I suspect that they were in a bit of an awkward situation:

For one thing, Tolkien fans (at least those with knowledge of the Second Age) would I daresay know immediately who this mysterious "Annatar" was; there would be no mystery for them.

For another, the show has just done a season built around the mystery of identifying Sauron; to do so again in the very next season could feel like a retread.

As a result, making a mystery of Annatar may simply not work here—even though he would naturally be a mystery to the characters.

Not to mention that there was, as I recall, some outcry at Halbrand's part in the forging of the Three Rings; this approach may be intended to allay concerns that we won't be seeing Annatar beyond that.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on May 16th 2024 at 1:20:43 PM

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theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#1596: May 18th 2024 at 11:21:45 AM

Yeah, I personally think the whole Halbrand thing might have been a misstep. Though I think if I remember correctly the appendices did say that Sauron was known to the Elves and he took the guise of Annatar as a way of sneaking back into Eregion.

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1597: May 19th 2024 at 4:01:28 AM

I don't know that "Halbrand" was a misstep, as such—in particular, I think that my first point above (that there was never going to be a mystery for Tolkien fans) would still stand.

... In fact, thinking of it that way, "Halbrand" was perhaps in fact a good idea: a way of having the mystery of "Annatar" without It Was His Sled spoiling the mystery.

[edit]
The phrasing of "sneaking into Eregion" gives me the rather amusing mental image of the Dark Lord Sauron, Maia of the smith Vala and right hand to Melkor, tip-toeing his way into the Elven city while attempting to avoid being spotted. :P

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on May 19th 2024 at 1:03:42 PM

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GrandmasterKiramidHead Since: Oct, 2010
#1598: May 19th 2024 at 1:51:19 PM

I didn't mind what they did with Halbrand, just that they crammed a lot of it into the last episode and it had no time to breathe.

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1599: May 20th 2024 at 1:14:48 AM

Yeah, that's a not-unfair criticism, I feel. It could have done with, say, another episode in which to let things play out.

(I do still really like that scene in which Sauron tried to bring Galadriel over to his side, however.)

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Luisdalas Since: Sep, 2023
#1600: May 20th 2024 at 12:36:56 PM

Maybe I'll sound like a fool, but I always believed that "Halbrand is Sauron" would end up being the equivalent of "x character is Mephisto" from Wandavision.


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