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The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon Prime)

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Whowho Since: May, 2012
#1551: Dec 7th 2023 at 5:26:12 AM

It is certainly fitting to the voice of Tolkien, but Tolkien wrote for the page rather than the screen. I think the show's pacing probably would be more enjoyable in a book I could put down and walk away rather than a screen that has me as a captive audience member.

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#1552: Dec 7th 2023 at 7:24:07 AM

Everything feels too small. Eregion seems to be no more than a dozen habitations. The grand army of Numenor only seems to be a few hundred strong. Mordor's slave pits and Adar's orc army seem to number in the dozens.

The one bit that still feels decent seems to be Moria

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1553: Dec 7th 2023 at 8:39:31 AM

[up][up] I'd argue that it's more a matter of personal taste than of differences in the medium: as I said, I actually quite liked the pacing, even in a series.

Which is fair: each to their own, and all that!

[up] That's fair. It's the sort of thing that I think that I, personally, don't really notice, so it didn't bother me—but I can certainly see it bothering others.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Dec 7th 2023 at 6:41:03 PM

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Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#1554: Dec 7th 2023 at 9:19:54 AM

I didn't think there was anything wrong with the pacing, really.

The scale is by necessity smaller than what the movies could do, and I'm well aware of the departures from canon. Despite being a total Tolkien fanboy who knows for a fact that the books are better than any adaptation, I can look beyond those things.

The thing I can't decide is, "is it any good or not?" That is, "Have they succeeded in telling an entertaining story or not?" I think we're still too early to tell, really.

EmeraldSource Since: Jan, 2021
#1555: Dec 7th 2023 at 9:45:08 AM

I'm as big a fan of slow burn worldbuilding as anyone, as I kind of liked the Hobbit films for being more naturalistic in the world. It's similar to TLOTR extended versions, not about more plot but more setting details.

That said, the TV show barely has enough story for one movie but almost has the runtime of an entire trilogy. It falls into the trap of arbitrary start and end points for each episode. So the pacing is not the issue in terms of feeling slow but in terms of absolutely nothing important happening in an episode.

I think there are three ideal ways of structuring a TV show. 1- Episodic where each episode can be appreciated individually, while it may or may not be a seasonal arc. 2- Mini-Arcs that create an internal self-contained story within a greater seasonal arc (Andor did this fantastically). 3- Evenly paced out segments that creates a coherent beginning, middle and end.

Where a lot of shows fail is it sets up the terms of the resolution in the first episode, act 1, and then an ill defined six episode act 2 before a rushed final episode act 3.

Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.
ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1556: Dec 7th 2023 at 12:22:39 PM

[up][up]

The thing I can't decide is, "is it any good or not?" That is, "Have they succeeded in telling an entertaining story or not?" I think we're still too early to tell, really.

This is a good point: while I may have enjoyed the narrative thus far, it is yet an unfinished narrative. (An "Unfinished Tale", if you will. ;P) As such, I can't really say yet that the series has told a good story.

[up] Again, all that I can really say is that that wasn't my own experience of the episodes, at least as far as I recall.

I think that the one thing (to Rule Them All :P) that I might say felt a bit rushed to me was the ending, specifically the forging of the Elven Rings. I would have liked a bit more " Annatar" than we really got.

(Although who knows? Perhaps that'll follow in seasons to come.)

Otherwise, I think that I recall enjoying the episodes as they were presented. *shrugs*

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GrandmasterKiramidHead Since: Oct, 2010
#1557: Dec 7th 2023 at 10:55:03 PM

I overall liked the season but it was a touch too slow early on, and they really sped up too fast in the last episode. It felt like three episodes worth of plot shoved into one.

theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#1558: Dec 10th 2023 at 7:52:10 PM

I mean, Numenor's army isn't really applicable to the scaling issue. That is specifically mentioned as as much of a force that they could feasibly put together to send to Middle-earth because of politics.

Luisdalas Since: Sep, 2023
#1559: Dec 26th 2023 at 11:33:23 AM

Speaking of Sauron, I was hoping to see the angelic Sauron, although the problem with characters with divine beauty is that no matter who they hire, the character's beauty will be seen as an informed attribute.

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#1560: Dec 26th 2023 at 11:48:52 AM

That's what special effects are for. Also, not hiring the hottest possible actors for minor roles

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1561: Dec 26th 2023 at 1:15:37 PM

Eh, no, I agree with Luisdalas: While one can use effects to convey that a character is supposed to be exceptionally beautiful, beauty is subjective. Thus, no matter who they hire, there will likely be those to whom the character will not be especially beautiful.

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Luisdalas Since: Sep, 2023
#1562: Dec 26th 2023 at 1:28:04 PM

Anyway, apparently an actor named Gavi Singh Chera will be "Angelical Sauron."

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#1563: Dec 26th 2023 at 8:03:43 PM

The same thing happened with Galadriel, when many people complained Cate Blachett wasn't attractive enough.

A sentiment I don't think I've ever heard expressed before or after, but it was still a loud reaction.

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1564: Dec 27th 2023 at 12:25:16 AM

[up][up] Aah, if so, then we might still be getting Annatar...

(I think that one of my guesses after Season 1 was that Sauron as Annatar would be appearing properly for the making of the Nine and Seven during Season 2, having been only a little part of the making of the Three. This would seem to fit with that guess...)

(Although is that confirmed, or rumour...? I see that IMDB lists the actor, but not what part they're playing...)

[up] Exactly: For some, she might well be an excellent choice in her beauty, for others, she might be a poor choice in being not particularly beautiful.

See also: Anyone playing Arwen Evenstar or (outside of Lord of the Rings), Helen of Troy.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Dec 27th 2023 at 10:26:16 PM

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Luisdalas Since: Sep, 2023
#1565: Jan 6th 2024 at 2:49:06 PM

While in the mcu post, someone posted a comment that could apply to this series.

"every important thing that has ever happened to this character happened in the span of 24 hours".

Of course 24 hours are not literal, but it is curious how they reduced more than a millennium, to a generation.

Edited by Luisdalas on Jan 6th 2024 at 2:54:18 AM

Twiddler MOD (On A Trope Odyssey)
#1566: Jan 6th 2024 at 5:26:55 PM

Thread title updated per request.

(Was: Amazon Lord of the Rings series
Changed to: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon Prime))

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1567: Jan 7th 2024 at 12:42:07 AM

[up] Thank you. ^_^

[up][up] (For the reference of others in the thread, there has been further discussion of this over in the "Century Spanning Plots" thread.)

I've argued my perspective on this in the above-linked thread, so for now I'll simply say that I don't find it terribly curious; it makes sense to me in this adaptation.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Jan 7th 2024 at 10:42:26 PM

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Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#1568: Jan 8th 2024 at 7:34:01 AM

Some interesting points. They're correct that if the show ran for the centuries and millennia the events took in the original timeline it would be difficult to include recurring human, hobbit, or dwarven characters. It would look like a very elf-centered show (more than it already does, that is) or would have almost an entirely new cast every time skip.

It's not true that nothing happened during the Second Age. It's just that much of what happened in the West didn't involve Sauron, because aside from a a century-long conflict from S.A. 1600 - S.A. 1700 Númenor was defending, and later conquering Western Middle-earth without his interference.

Sauron entered Mordor in S.A. 1000, and began appearing to the elves in Eregion in S.A. 1200. He forged the One Ring in S.A. 1600, was revealed to the elves, and then nearly conquered all of Eriador over the next hundred years. Númenor finally returned to Middle-Earth in S.A. 1700 drove him back out of Western Middle-earth within a single year, and Sauron's furthest Western stronghold was Mordor by S.A. 1701. For the next 1700 years Sauron focused his efforts in the Far East, while Númenor built its empire in Western Middle-Earth largely without his interference.

So for any canon-accurate stories before S.A. 1600 Sauron is hiding his true nature from everyone and it's a time of peace and building, and any stories told of Western Middle-earth (the area we're familiar with) from about S.A. 1800 through to S.A. 3260 or so wouldn't involve Sauron at all, and would probably feature the Númenóreans as the bad guys, with the Elves in a mostly passive role doing their best to ignore them.

Edited by Bense on Jan 8th 2024 at 8:36:05 AM

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1569: Jan 8th 2024 at 8:54:48 AM

[up] This is an aside, but wow—I didn't realise that the Numenoreans trampled Sauron quite that badly! A single year to break pretty much all of his hold on the West?! 0_0

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Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#1570: Jan 8th 2024 at 9:25:10 AM

Yes, Sauron took about a century to conquer Eriador and destroy Eregion, and Númenor was powerful enough to drive him completely out of Eriador in the course of a single year. They apparently didn't attempt to invade Mordor, though, until Ar-Pharazôn's time.

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1571: Jan 9th 2024 at 6:00:34 AM

[up] I like to imagine that they looked at the state of the place, and decided that they simply didn't want it. :P

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ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#1572: Jan 21st 2024 at 4:20:33 AM

I don't mind the time contraction in principle, but I actually think it would have been better if they made the story span longer periods. After all, Dwarves and Númenóreans lived pretty long. So it would be interesting if there was a hundred or so years between seasons. The second season could start with Galadriel meeting a man that she knew in season one and think that he looks different, before realizing that he is the son or grandson.

I would also haven't put the Hobbits in the first season or made Who is Sauron the plot driving mystery box. They could have focused on one or two regions.

ArsThaumaturgis Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
#1573: Jan 21st 2024 at 5:50:27 AM

So it would be interesting if there was a hundred or so years between seasons.

Well, that is still a possibility—we don't yet know how much in-universe time will have passed come the start of the second season.

(The only real issue that I see is that a Hobbit went off with probably-Gandalf near the end. But I don't know that we have information as to whether either will be at all present in season two.

I would also haven't put the Hobbits in the first season or made Who is Sauron the plot driving mystery box. They could have focused on one or two regions.

Fair enough! Each to their own!

For myself, I recall that I liked both—the Hobbits especially.

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ry4n Since: Jan, 2014
#1574: Jan 22nd 2024 at 7:07:49 AM

My point is not that the Hobbits were bad, but that they could be introduced later. A pleasure postponed. Then there could be more about the colonies of Numenor and focus on the region that would become Gondor, South Gondor and Um ar This would then set up the Nazgul as 3 are Black Numenoreans and but it would also include the people who would become the Oathbreakers. Of course, this would show that the name Southlands was ridiculous.

As far as the timeline of the show, Elendil and his sons are already fully grown, but Elendil lived over 300 years, so they have over 200 till the War of the Last Alliance. Still, the next season is probably not going to skip the forging of the other rings, and I am pretty sure it will include the fall of Numenor, because the actors discussed it before Season 1 came out. That means Sauron has to get the other Rings and then distribute them. Only one of the receivers of those rings is introduced, but a dwarf and not a man. At this point the background for a potential Nazgul character isn't even laid.

If they were going to play who is Sauron, a few colonial governors and native kings would have been better red herings than obviously Gandalf.

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#1575: Jan 22nd 2024 at 9:29:23 AM

The creators of the show pretty obviously decided against following what Tolkien wrote about the Second Age, whether legal rights forbade them or just because they decided they didn't have to, before they wrote the show.

Given that, why not do things like compact the timescale of the canon events they are still referencing? Or introduce hobbits and Gandalf? Or pretty much completely lose Sauron's guise as Aannatar (which anyone who read Tolkien would know about already)? Or have volcanic Mordor be a magically created realm instead of one that was always there? Or have Lindon elves occupying "the Southlands"?

If you're going to decide early on that you're not bound by canon, why not just go off in whatever direction you think will be entertaining?


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