A member of one of the mook squads Rawlins sent after him was a woman and he kind of just perforated her along with the other goons without commenting on it.
Again I question why Stick didn't try to recruit Castle.
He fought Matt to a standstill, and Matt fought Danny to a standstill after not being Daredevil for a few weeks/months, so lack of martial arts training or not, the man is pretty deadly. Frank even manages to get the drop on a few of the Hand ninjas who, up until that point, had Matt surrounded. But let's focus on the fact that Frank fought a guy on the same skill level as the freaking Iron Fist.
The Hand still existed after Daredevil Season 2 and they either weren't interested in finding Castle, or weren't able. They still had enough ninjas to give The Defenders a 10-minute hallway fight and enough to establish a small army underground. And Bakuto was running a dojo. Their pure inability or unwillingness to track him down indicates Stick really should have looked this guy up.
edited 7th Jan '18 5:25:14 PM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Castle's too much of a wild card.
"Hey asshole, there's this group of assholes called The Hand that probably had something to do with your family's deaths. I need your help to take them out."
"One condition - we kill them all."
"Did I stutter?"
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
it's a living
It's two top secret ninja conspiracies fighting each other in secret. Yeah, Frank can mow through their mooks as well as anyone, but he's not really designed for the kind of tracking you'd need to really hunt down the Hand. As his own series shows, he's vulnerable to manipulation and subterfuge, and nearly died a bunch of times to a an operation that was pretty hamfisted. Not that the Hand's been much better, but I want to believe that that's just lazy writing, and that they're supposed to be as good as Madame Gao makes me believe they are.
Frank's a solution to a problem the Chaste didn't really have— it's not killing the Hand individually that's the hard part, it's pinning them down long enough to cut off the head, literally and metaphorically.
I dunno.
Feels like throwing Frank Castle at the Hand would be a pretty significant distraction.
it's a living
Eh. They're just as likely to be a distraction for Frank as the other way around. They have the advantage of numbers, they consider their lower-ranking members even more expendable than most gangs, and they can use those numbers to split up, providing a target for Frank with one Hand, going about their business with the other(...s).
I think you also have to consider that the Chaste probably don't want Frank's kind of exposure either. They operate in secret too, and they commit their own crimes. Stick flat-out murdered a kid. Sure, that kid was the Black Sky, but do you think Frank Castle of all people would accept that logic? Not that Stick has to tell him, but that's probably not even going to be the first or last kid Stick was prepared to kill (see: Danny Rand). If and when it comes to that, better not to have wildcards like the Punisher looking over your shoulder.
edited 8th Jan '18 4:53:09 AM by Unsung
Also, not everything Frank says to Lewis is true. He offers to help Lewis in his quest, says "We are the same", even though his behavior/words before and after show he is disguisted with Lewis' actions and considers them totally different.
Also, this version of the Punisher mostly wants revenge. I don't remember many instances where he went for random thugs as opposed to people involved in the Central Park shootout.
Also also, did Stick even know about Frank? Everyone considered the Punisher dead, there were only two people knowing he's alive (three if you count David). If the Hand couldn't track Frank down, maybe Stick also couldn't.
I love my country, I just hate its government
I would say there's only three instances across Daredevil and The Punisher where Frank killed random thugs not connected to what happened in the park: the pawnshop owner who tried to sell child porn to Frank, then Lance's crew, and the thieves at the chop shop.
More like four: Matt, Karen, Curtis and David. (I imagine that Karen must have talked with Matt about her visit to Colonel Schoonover's place at some point in between season 2 and The Defenders, and her failure to talk Frank out of killing Schoonover, due to the lingering PTSD she's developed from being in Frank's presence) Unless you don't include Matt in that list because of his "death" at Midland Circle.
edited 8th Jan '18 11:18:45 AM by dmcreif
The cold never bothered me anyway
Add Foggy to that list, because I'm guessing Matt and/or Karen must have talked with him about their encounters with Frank that followed his "death" in the time before The Defenders.
The cold never bothered me anyway
it's a living
"Oh good, more things to perjure myself about, cool!"
- Actually, both Matt and Karen are perfectly capable of keeping secrets from Foggy, Matt and Foggy's relationship was strained after DD S2, and Karen explicitly confirmed she didn't tell anyone about Frank being alive. So I don't think Foggy knew.
Alternately, when Karen says she didn't tell anyone about Frank being alive, I don't think she'd count Matt there, since Matt would confirm that Frank lay down cover fire for him that night on the roof.
The cold never bothered me anyway
She didn't have to tell Matt anything, Matt already knew Frank helped him at the rooftop.
I love my country, I just hate its government
I actually think that both Karen and Matt knew that he was alive but independent from each other....the whole point is mood anyway since he got caught on camera.
You know at the ACE Comic Con panel, Jon Bernthal actually said they filmed a scene where Frank talks about the events in Daredevil with Karen as well as talk about Matt's "death". But it seems like it didn't make the cut for various reasons. Namely, that since Daredevil is Karen's home show, her reaction to Matt's death is something that needs to be addressed by the new showrunner on Daredevil, not by Steve Lightfoot. I can see how maybe he wanted to do it, but ultimately that would have had huge impacts on how Karen is portrayed in Daredevil season 3.
(Most likely, the bridge scene in episode 5 is where they would've talked about Matt, given that's where Karen's talking about wanting Frank to have an "after" to his crusade)
Speaking of Karen, I always feel like her part on The Punisher wasn't up to snuff. As in, I like Karen but the part she got in The Punisher isn't suited to a character like her. She was primarily a plot device to advance Frank's storyline. I do like her part in helping Frank get a step closer to finding David, because Frank and David's "like a married couple" bickering is, I believe, the best thing about the show (well, that, and Ben Barnes' chilly performance as Billy Russo). But then there's the resolution to the Lewis storyline, where I feel like Karen's actions in provoking Lewis, and Lewis sending the manifesto to her in the first place, were just plot devices to get Frank involved as well as pander to the Kastle fandom.
Karen's a much better character in Daredevil because she's more important there, and I love how independently vital Karen is in the Daredevil narrative, with her stories being independent of Matt's. In The Punisher, she only ever appeared when Frank needed to hit her up for information or save her life. And I don't know if it's just me, but Frank seemed to get annoyed with Karen the moment she expressed the slightest autonomy or hint that she had her own life.
edited 16th Jan '18 4:33:53 PM by dmcreif
The cold never bothered me anyway
They probably could have dug up a reporter character from Frank's own mythos, but they needed that obligatory overt Netflixverse "IT'S ALL CONNECTED" thing and didn't want to use Claire.
Well, in the comics, at least, Frank has absolutely no life outside of his "war" and its frequently led to him being a total asshole towards allies (Micro and Henry Russo, especially) who try to have ones of their own. But yeah, I'm kind of ehhh towards his and Karen's relationship and how she was handled in the show.
I heard that they already had a finished script when DD S2 aired, and made the decision to include Karen in "The Punisher" after seeing her interacting with Frank, so the script had to be rewritten specifically to include Karen, hence her not making a big impact on the plot. This may be false, I'm not sure how reliable that source was.
I actually hate how Karen is usually handled in Daredevil - and not because I am in any way opposed to her having her own arc. But I don't think that her romance with Matt works on any level and the whole story of her becoming a reporter is kind of insulting when you know how difficult it is to even get a foot into this particular business.
- and the whole story of her becoming a reporter is kind of insulting when you know how difficult it is to even get a foot into this particular business.
It still beats the misogynistic bullshit Frank Miller put her through in the comics (Deborah Ann Woll's disdain for the "porn and drugs" elements gives me a lot of joy).
To give another one of my honest thoughts concerning Karen's presence, it's that The Punisher marketing has always been such a joke when it comes to Karen, promoting a ship just to please a small part of the fandom. They want to please a specific part of the audience, because more happy shippers means more viewers and more money. This is a business after all, but fanservice seems to be more important than actual plot development and coherence. (Though this could just be me saying "I really miss the days when Karen was a lead on Daredevil and hope season 3 does her justice")
The cold never bothered me anyway
...I thought Punisher gave Karen more to do, honestly. She always seemed like a third wheel on Daredevil to me. Being in a more grounded narrative without the "crazy, blind lawyer ninja battling evil ninja cult" storyline seems better for characters like Karen that don't really cater to the plot the way characters like Foggy and Hogarth do.
The way I see it, Daredevil has two major components - the courtroom, and Matt's fight against criminal empires and street crime. Foggy contributes to the first because he's a lawyer and is able to participate in the courtroom, and Elektra and Stick contribute to the second because they're trained assassins who help and hinder Matt on his quest. Karen doesn't really contribute to either - she's not a lawyer, vigilante, or an assassin. IIRC she was an "assistant" in Season 1.
Then look at The Punisher's major components - FBI investigations, terror attacks, government conspiracies. Karen is a journalist and one of the few people in New York in the know about who the street-level vigilantes really are. She adds a lot to this setting, being one of the few people willing to help Frank and sympathetic to his cause, confronting an aspect of society that Daredevil would probably never address - gun control, veteran care - because it's just not relevant to Matt's backstory.
Furthermore, it's been awhile since I watched DD but I can't really remember what Karen actually does in the back half of DD Season 2 once the Castle storyline is shelved. I think getting captured by a bomber, helping Frank catch his stalker, and being one of Madani's only leads on Frank was a lot more than she did in at least the second season, if not both seasons of DD.
Mind, I don't think Karen/Matt works either, and I wouldn't want her to stick around just to be Frank's love interest - but watching relationships struggle and fail is like the heart of drama note
Of course, I never read the comics, so I'm guessing she was built to be part of DD's supporting cast. But it just seems like Punisher's groundedness caters more to her character than Daredevil's action-focused, court drama. I think she has a lot more potential on The Punisher where the HSQ is smaller than she does on Daredevil where ninjas chased and shot arrows at a moving car.
edited 17th Jan '18 1:15:13 PM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Karen's contribution is also more deliberate in The Punisher. I mean, yes, she investigates in both seasons of Daredevil, but in neither case her investigation amounts to anything positive. In the first season it gets Urich (and her co-worker) killed and the actual important investigation is done by Daredevil, while her shooting Wesley, while helpful, is certainly not planned. And in the second season she spends all the time investigating for a story she will never publish and doesn't contribute to anything in the end. A lot of what she does feels more like keeping her busy to explain her even being around.
In The Punisher on the other hand she does find helpful information for Frank and takes a public stand against terrorism. And gets to rescue the Senator. She feels like she is actually part of the story instead of just being around to make annoying speeches.
it's a living
Matt mostly passes the investigation portion of his job onto Ben and Karen around the second or third episode, I'd say. He's down there in the trenches stopping the Fisk ring from killing people, but piecing together the evidence that actually discredits him is something Karen and Ben both do. Karen finds Fisk's mother. She goes about it in entirely the wrong way and gets ben killed for it, but there was always a chance of that happening anyway, given the people they're dealing with. I still think you're wrong to put all that blame on Karen herself, and not on, for example, Fisk.
And she does quite a bit in the second half of DD Season 2. Again she's doing all the investigation that makes the vigilante's work seem justified, the fact-finding that Batman would be doing at the same time. She has nothing to do with Matt and the Hand, but everything to do with Frank Castle and showing the audience and city why he's not just a lone gunman with a psychotic grudge against crime.
She definitely doesn't get more to do in Punisher, seeing as she's barely in it. I don't think Frank's annoyed with her, though, anymore than he is about the need to drag anyone else into this. Guy's kind of annoyed most of the time. I think that's just what his face looks like.
Frank yells at Lewis 'didn't you ever learn not to hurt a woman?' and everything in the show reinforces that this is part of Frank's code. (For the sake of argument, let's pretend he didn't actually hurt or endanger Karen at any point in Daredevil, and those actions there were a momentary lapse of judgement.)
I kinda wish Frank could cross paths in the future with a heated and angry Elektra, or have to deal with an equally prickly Jessica Jones and krav-maga trained Trish who can't handle Patriarchy!!Pete. Or having to deal with Colleen and bionic-armed Misty after killing a random perp. Or even going up face to face with Madame Gao.
Whatever, I would like something to happen to demonstrate to Frank that not all women are helpless or need his protection. Some even demand to be treated as an equal and can kick his ass without breaking a sweat. Don't misunderstand, I love Frank, I'm just wondering if he'd have respect for the other dangerous, amazing, badass women in the MCU.
edited 6th Jan '18 9:39:07 PM by dmcreif
The cold never bothered me anyway