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ITNW1989 a from Big Meat, USA Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
a
#251: Nov 22nd 2017 at 9:22:11 AM

Re Frank torturing Wolf: I'm pretty sure Frank knows that torture doesn't work, he's just doing it because he knows Wolf is dirty and to make him think that he's an amateur (to quote Wolf: "If you were a professional you'd know that"). He's a former Marine and a black ops assassin, for Chrissakes, I think it's safe to say he knew that torturing someone like Wolf for information wasn't going to work. He just wanted to, especially since he'd found out that Wolf was one of the reasons his family was killed.

Hell, he even used a freaking necktie to bind Wolf when he uses zipties every other time; he was goading Wolf into breaking free and spilling all that information about what he did to Frank's family and what he did with Micro. Moments before, when Frank was torturing him, Wolf was adamant about not knowing or lying about who Lieberman was, and when he thinks he has the upper hand against Frank, Wolf spills everything in standard Evil Gloating.

edited 22nd Nov '17 9:23:03 AM by ITNW1989

Hitokiri in the streets, daishouri in the sheets.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#252: Nov 22nd 2017 at 2:01:31 PM

Alright, so all of you have binged it, I assume. I haven't. How good is it? Because Daredevil Season 2 had nasty Ending Fatigue.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#253: Nov 22nd 2017 at 2:33:53 PM

Much better. No Romantic Plot Tumor, steady pacing, a likable lead despite his issues, a great main rival, awesome friendship moments (you read that right), a rather liberal take on the issues usually plaguing the character that seldom glorifies violence, and Shohreh Aghdashloo's voice.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#254: Nov 22nd 2017 at 3:53:03 PM

[up][up] It's good. The pacing is a little bit slow in the beginning, but it is steady and picks up towards the end. The sider characters are surprisingly likable. The framing is particularly well done.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#255: Nov 22nd 2017 at 4:54:25 PM

I probably shouldn't be here as I'm only up to Episode 3. But I'm pretty sure this all ends in a giant shoot-out so, eh.

I like it so far. A little bummed that the opening theme/credits wasn't the same scene from the first episode, switching between Frank bonding with his daughter and Frank playing the guitar in despair before another switch to a... whatever you call that noise.

Unfortunately, thanks to me googling the song name, I'm now stuck thinking the theme is called, "Shitty Blues Guitar." context 

edited 22nd Nov '17 5:04:48 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#256: Nov 22nd 2017 at 5:11:00 PM

The credits music definitely comes off as having vibes of the original Tom Waits version of "Way Down in the Hole".

Okey Dokey!
JOZeldenrust Since: Jul, 2010
#257: Nov 22nd 2017 at 5:41:22 PM

In terms of pacing and story structure, I think this is the best of the Netflix series. It is very well done. I still like Jessica Jones the best (the theme is more interesting and terrifying to me), but Punisher probably took the number two spot, followed closely by DD season 1 and Luke Cage, and IF just barely staying above DD season 2.

I do think the show pussyfooted around the issue of gun control, but then again I'm a left wing European socialist softy who thinks the entire second amendment was a huge mistake and people actually shouldn't have the right to keep and bear arms, so expecting any product of American popular culture to take a position similar to mine isn't very realistic.

I liked seeing Karen portrayed mostly as a competent journalist. I was weirded out by her article on Franks hit on the mob in Little Italy at the start of the second episode. Did she intentionally bury that story because she new it was Frank? The headline ways murder-suicide, which would fit the narrative of a cop looking for an easy clearance, but Karen is supposed to be the kind of journalist who sees beyond that kind of bullshit, right? You don't get murder-suicides in cases of major Mafia bosses, or when you do the shooter is a low level fall guy. It's clear from the lead of her article that Karen is aware that the victims of those murders were involved in organised crime, that one of them is a made guy.

I had been looking for hints of Karen's work as a reporter ever since DD season 2, and I was especially disappointed when she didn't do anything useful in The Defenders. In this series we at least got her jockeying for position with Madani. That was cool.

I think this series showed how to switch antagonists for the third act. Luke Cage attempted this story structure, but Punisher succeeded at it. Luke Cage had an interesting villain, and then replaced him with a villain with a personal connection to our protagonist for the final act of the series, and it kind of fell flat. We didn't really know the final villain, and his conflict with the protagonist didn't quite feel earned. Punisher does this much better, though the twist was telegraphed a bit too much for my taste. At least we got to see why the final antagonist is so close to the main character this time.

JOZeldenrust Since: Jul, 2010
#258: Nov 22nd 2017 at 5:48:59 PM

The credits music mostly reminded me of Johnny Cash's God's Gonna Cut You Down, but Way Down in the Hole works as well. It's not the only way this series reminded me of The Wire.

Shameless plug of The Wire. It is the best thing ever put on television. If you haven't watched it yet, go watch it now.

ITNW1989 a from Big Meat, USA Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
a
#259: Nov 22nd 2017 at 6:21:05 PM

Really, if you've never seen The Wire, you owe it to yourself to watch it. If you've seen it and didn't like it, you better hope I never meet you, for I will end you and your suffering.

As for Karen going with the headline, it's possible she didn't actually believe it was Frank's doing, since the guy's gone to ground for six months. Plus, with the head guy having shot himself with his own gun, I guess it was easy to believe it was a murder-suicide/power struggle.

Hitokiri in the streets, daishouri in the sheets.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#260: Nov 22nd 2017 at 6:41:17 PM

Just finished episode 6.

Already knew Billy was no good due to a spoiler not from here. That spoiler also told me that Billy is gonna have a future with Puzzles so to speak.tongue

Not sure where they are going with that Lewis dude. Guess we'll see soon enough.

One Strip! One Strip!
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#261: Nov 22nd 2017 at 6:45:56 PM

Plus, with the head guy having shot himself with his own gun, I guess it was easy to believe it was a murder-suicide/power struggle.

Would explain all those bullets that were fired.

Okey Dokey!
ITNW1989 a from Big Meat, USA Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
a
#262: Nov 22nd 2017 at 7:16:18 PM

Besides, as far as we know that guy who Frank made it seem like he shot himself probably wasn't even actually a head of a gang; he could have just been a lieutenant, as far as we know, which is why it didn't trigger any warning flags in Karen's and other people's minds.

Hitokiri in the streets, daishouri in the sheets.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#263: Nov 22nd 2017 at 8:16:42 PM

I'm pretty sure Frank knows that torture doesn't work,

I forgot about this scene - in which Frank beats the crap out of a dude to make him tell the truth.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
ITNW1989 a from Big Meat, USA Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
a
#264: Nov 22nd 2017 at 8:42:23 PM

[up] Fair enough, though I suppose I should have clarified that my post was more geared towards the case of both Wolf and his reference to Guantanamo, where we're talking about people who've likely been trained never to release information, even if it comes at the cost of their lives. It's unlikely that Grotto, the guy Frank was torturing in your vid, was given that sort of training. Wolf, on the other hand, has likely had extensive training to resist interrogation/torture, which is why he was still lying through his teeth about Micro even after getting shot in the leg.

Hitokiri in the streets, daishouri in the sheets.
dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#265: Nov 22nd 2017 at 9:48:59 PM

The headline ways murder-suicide, which would fit the narrative of a cop looking for an easy clearance, but Karen is supposed to be the kind of journalist who sees beyond that kind of bullshit, right?

Right, considering Karen figured out right away Rance (the guy Fisk sent to her apartment) was murdered simply because he "hanged himself" in his cell, which is exactly what that guard had tried to do to Karen.

Okey Dokey!
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#266: Nov 22nd 2017 at 11:43:43 PM

That is different. Karen had additional background information. But a random shooting? She has little reason to not believe the official version. 90% of Journalism is pretty much to repeat whatever comes over the newsticker.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#267: Nov 23rd 2017 at 7:26:41 AM

Except when it comes to a case Karen is personally involved with, like Fisk. Then things are different.

Okey Dokey!
warrior93 warrior93 from North Carolina Since: Feb, 2011
warrior93
#268: Nov 23rd 2017 at 10:53:59 AM

So was this show written before Donald Trump became President?

Because that's was the impression that I got with the Mad Bomber subplot.

edited 23rd Nov '17 10:54:14 AM by warrior93

Place your past in a book burn the pages let them cook.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#269: Nov 23rd 2017 at 10:54:34 AM

Most likely. TV shows take more than a year to make.

edited 23rd Nov '17 10:54:42 AM by Ghilz

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#270: Nov 23rd 2017 at 12:55:33 PM

O'Connor has some very Trump esque behaviors.

Okey Dokey!
warrior93 warrior93 from North Carolina Since: Feb, 2011
warrior93
#271: Nov 23rd 2017 at 7:15:02 PM

1. I thought they made a straw-man out of people advocating for gun control laws.

2. If this show's screenplay first draft was written after Trump became President I feel that the Mad Bomber subplot would've been radically different. The bomber might've still been right-wing instead of a left-wing radical but I feel that his motivations would've been different.

Which oddly makes the Punisher an unintentional pre-2017 period piece.

edited 23rd Nov '17 7:15:21 PM by warrior93

Place your past in a book burn the pages let them cook.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#272: Nov 23rd 2017 at 7:26:59 PM

Reality has a liberal bias in for all the hooplah of DANGEROUS MASKED MEN, the people actually murdering protestors and committing terrorists are right wing Nazis like they've been for years.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#273: Nov 24th 2017 at 9:24:03 AM

So I’m having real trouble getting into this, I’m towards the end of eppisode three and I just can’t bond with Frank or any of his buddies, I’m just unable to ignore the fact that he and his buddies are a bunch of war criminals that in a just world would be either dead or locked up for life. In the end they’re all proven terrible people who chose to be that way.

[[Does the show ever stop trying to get the viewer to sympathise with a bunch of war criminals/terrorists? If it was just Frank I could maybe tolerate it, but all his buddies come across like I’m meant to sympathise with them, when they’re just as bad as his when it comes to being unrepentant war criminals.]]

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay Since: Jun, 2016
it's a living
#274: Nov 24th 2017 at 9:31:32 AM

[up]You're really not supposed to be onboard with what Operation Cerberus are doing, Russo and Anvil have a decidedly skeevy vibe from the get-go and if you're not entirely comfortable with what the Punisher or Micro are willing to do, I'd say that's pretty reasonable as well. There can be something cathartic in watching bloody vengeance get meted out, but if you genuinely don't enjoy that kind of thing, you might prefer to hold onto that rather than build up your desensitization just so you can watch one show.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#275: Nov 24th 2017 at 11:10:26 AM

Don't force yourself to watch one tv show.


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