It's two asshole governments trying to antagonize and fight each other.
The Spanish government under Rajoy are brutal idiots for falling so easily for Catalonia's trap and the Catalonian government is sleazy and corrupt for what they're doing.
The ones that I sympathize with are the Catalonian people who are being treated like pawns and pushed around.
If Spain had handled Catalonia's independence movement like the UK did with Scotland, it would've been a blip on the radar.
Well, to me it does matter how the so called referendum was conducted. This isn't about the people of Catalonia, it is about two government fighting for power. And honestly, I am kind of surprised that there are supporters of the referendum which actually expects the EU to come out on their behalf.
And no, I don't think that the people who didn't vote were stupid. Because if you can't trust the votes aren't manipulated, voting just gives the Referendum the appearance of being representative when it certainly is not.
I have Catalonian friends who have fervent faith in the independence movement and those that lead it. They drink the Convergencia cool-aid, trust in Artur Mas, and want to run away from the Spanish State at all costs, and I do mean at all costs: "we'll make any kind of deal necessary".
It's kind of miserable trying to debate with them because they always have a shit-ton of arguments ready, and whenever they run out, they ask for a pause to go and collect more. Sometimes they do, and the conversation can restart. But sometimes they don't.
More stupid than the alternatives?
edited 5th Oct '17 1:37:42 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.As to whether the voting process itself was done in the right manner, most polling places had an ID card requirement, and even in some others, ballot cards of a different size than the official (those printed at home out of caution) were considered invalid. So pretty decent for an illegal referendum.
edited 5th Oct '17 3:05:45 AM by Grafite
Life is unfair...And, again, it was all relatively fine until the PP started to bitch about the Estatut in 2006, and had it taken down in 2010.
The problem with National Catholicism, in both its fascist and democratic variants, is that it won't even bother to question itself. It is right, and anything that disagrees is an enemy to be belittled, ignored or forcefully destroyed. Cersei fucking Lannister.
After all, remember, the fucking Virgin Mary has an official condecoration from the Interior minister, who was of importance within Opus Dei.
Also, Opus Dei. Spanish elites and conservative politicians have ties to them, period.
Except there is evidence of people voting two, three or even four times at different polling stations. Ballot boxes stuffed with votes before reaching the polling station. The Generalitat announcing their happiness at the results. Half an hour BEFORE the results were published.
"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."That's one fucking dumb move. Haven't they heard of the Tennis Court Oath
?
In the personified terms we've been discussing, it's because he's not willing to let her go that she's gonna leave him.
edited 5th Oct '17 1:21:44 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.You keep harping on that. There is such a thing as post-vote polling. Given that Australia is currently undergoing a non-binding postal referendum at the moment where the results want be released for another month, we're more or less reliant on those sort of things to get an idea of how things are going.
And half an hour before the results suggests that the results have already been counted and were being prepared for public presentation. Which just means that the dude who announced may just have had a chance to look at the raw numbers.
They weren't ready for presentation. In fact, a full day after they announced it they admitted they were still counting and awaiting the official results.
edited 5th Oct '17 5:01:18 PM by germi91
"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."It's still really easy to have an idea of the outcome substantially before the outcome is finished, depending on counting procedures, holdups, and whether you're still waiting for any boxes.
Meanwhile, the head of the Mossos d'Esquadra has been accused of sedition
for... failing to protect the Gardia Civil from protesters. So, now it's a crime against the state to not protect military police against civilian protesters? That's... interesting...
Are they reading an instruction manual in Madrid called "How to Be Incompetent Authoritarians"? Step by step, they've managed to make every wrong move:
- Declare the referendum illegal, then use force to stop it even though—being illegal—it would be fine to just dismiss it afterwards.
- Having decided to use force to prevent it, use force illegal in Catalonia.
- Despite the situation continuing to get worse because of these actions, continue to insist there's no need for dialogue or mediation, as if being stubborn is going to resolve it. Including declaring a session of parliament banned for reasons verging on Insane Troll Logic.
- Now accuse the head of Catalonia's police force of sedition. I'm sure this is going to help and not, y'know, lead to something even more stupid like declaring the Mossos d'Esquadra enemies of the state or terrorists or something equally stupid. Note: there is this minor concept of negligence that could be used if you absolutely had to charge with something...
edited 6th Oct '17 6:40:15 AM by RainehDaze
Oh, the Spanish government has also apologised for the injuries... then blamed the Catalonian government because then vote was illegal.
Blame shifting at its finest. "You made me hit you." Ditto for the making-it-easier-to-relocate decree.
That was the (crap) argument of Enric Millo, not the Constitutional Court, not even the high-ranking members of PP and/or the central government. He's the vice-secretary (not even a Secretary) of political and economical action within the local section of the PP. He's not very relevant.
I'd be more shocked if Rajoy publicly said something like that.
edited 6th Oct '17 7:17:15 AM by Quag15
