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Catalan Referendum

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Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#201: Oct 4th 2017 at 9:56:58 PM

That, at least, confirms what was already clear—it wasn't run like a normal vote. At the same time, half of that was because of all the efforts taken to suppress it, which hardly surprises me.
Yeah, you don't get to claim "the NO voters couldn't reach the polls" when you're the one trying to prevent everyone in the first place.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#202: Oct 5th 2017 at 12:25:49 AM

It's two asshole governments trying to antagonize and fight each other.

The Spanish government under Rajoy are brutal idiots for falling so easily for Catalonia's trap and the Catalonian government is sleazy and corrupt for what they're doing.

The ones that I sympathize with are the Catalonian people who are being treated like pawns and pushed around.

If Spain had handled Catalonia's independence movement like the UK did with Scotland, it would've been a blip on the radar.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#203: Oct 5th 2017 at 12:31:17 AM

Well, to me it does matter how the so called referendum was conducted. This isn't about the people of Catalonia, it is about two government fighting for power. And honestly, I am kind of surprised that there are supporters of the referendum which actually expects the EU to come out on their behalf.

And no, I don't think that the people who didn't vote were stupid. Because if you can't trust the votes aren't manipulated, voting just gives the Referendum the appearance of being representative when it certainly is not.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#204: Oct 5th 2017 at 1:02:51 AM

@Silasw: Hahaha. No. Madrid is not going to recognize an independence referendum - that would, honestly, be stupid of them.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#205: Oct 5th 2017 at 1:37:01 AM

The Spanish government under Rajoy are brutal idiots for falling so easily for Catalonia's trap and the Catalonian government is sleazy and corrupt for what they're doing. The ones that I sympathize with are the Catalonian people who are being treated like pawns and pushed around.

I have Catalonian friends who have fervent faith in the independence movement and those that lead it. They drink the Convergencia cool-aid, trust in Artur Mas, and want to run away from the Spanish State at all costs, and I do mean at all costs: "we'll make any kind of deal necessary".

It's kind of miserable trying to debate with them because they always have a shit-ton of arguments ready, and whenever they run out, they ask for a pause to go and collect more. Sometimes they do, and the conversation can restart. But sometimes they don't.

[up]More stupid than the alternatives?

edited 5th Oct '17 1:37:42 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#206: Oct 5th 2017 at 3:05:01 AM

As to whether the voting process itself was done in the right manner, most polling places had an ID card requirement, and even in some others, ballot cards of a different size than the official (those printed at home out of caution) were considered invalid. So pretty decent for an illegal referendum.

edited 5th Oct '17 3:05:45 AM by Grafite

Life is unfair...
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#207: Oct 5th 2017 at 5:50:42 AM

And, again, it was all relatively fine until the PP started to bitch about the Estatut in 2006, and had it taken down in 2010.

The problem with National Catholicism, in both its fascist and democratic variants, is that it won't even bother to question itself. It is right, and anything that disagrees is an enemy to be belittled, ignored or forcefully destroyed. Cersei fucking Lannister.

After all, remember, the fucking Virgin Mary has an official condecoration from the Interior minister, who was of importance within Opus Dei.

Also, Opus Dei. Spanish elites and conservative politicians have ties to them, period.

germi91 Public Servant from Spain Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Public Servant
#208: Oct 5th 2017 at 6:35:57 AM

As to whether the voting process itself was done in the right manner, most polling places had an ID card requirement, and even in some others, ballot cards of a different size than the official (those printed at home out of caution) were considered invalid. So pretty decent for an illegal referendum.

Except there is evidence of people voting two, three or even four times at different polling stations. Ballot boxes stuffed with votes before reaching the polling station. The Generalitat announcing their happiness at the results. Half an hour BEFORE the results were published.

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#209: Oct 5th 2017 at 6:53:40 AM

That last one is nothing unusual for an election, people can get an idea of the results before they're finalised. Should apply to other votes too.

edited 5th Oct '17 6:54:24 AM by RainehDaze

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#210: Oct 5th 2017 at 7:01:46 AM

And the court has banned the next parliamentary session to prevent a declaration of independence, so it's now even more inevitable.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#211: Oct 5th 2017 at 7:44:08 AM

That's one fucking dumb move. Haven't they heard of the Tennis Court Oath?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#212: Oct 5th 2017 at 8:04:58 AM

And somehow the rationale is that this session would violate the rights of the socialist party's MP's.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#213: Oct 5th 2017 at 12:40:23 PM

@Handle: Yes. You know as well as I do that you should never hold a vote that you're not willing to be bound by, and Rajoy ultimately is not willing to let Catalonia go - he's spelled the latter out in plain Spanish.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#214: Oct 5th 2017 at 1:20:06 PM

In the personified terms we've been discussing, it's because he's not willing to let her go that she's gonna leave him.

edited 5th Oct '17 1:21:44 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#215: Oct 5th 2017 at 4:23:09 PM

The Generalitat announcing their happiness at the results. Half an hour BEFORE the results were published.

You keep harping on that. There is such a thing as post-vote polling. Given that Australia is currently undergoing a non-binding postal referendum at the moment where the results want be released for another month, we're more or less reliant on those sort of things to get an idea of how things are going.

And half an hour before the results suggests that the results have already been counted and were being prepared for public presentation. Which just means that the dude who announced may just have had a chance to look at the raw numbers.

germi91 Public Servant from Spain Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Public Servant
#216: Oct 5th 2017 at 4:59:08 PM

And half an hour before the results suggests that the results have already been counted and were being prepared for public presentation. Which just means that the dude who announced may just have had a chance to look at the raw numbers.

They weren't ready for presentation. In fact, a full day after they announced it they admitted they were still counting and awaiting the official results.

edited 5th Oct '17 5:01:18 PM by germi91

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#217: Oct 6th 2017 at 6:23:56 AM

It's still really easy to have an idea of the outcome substantially before the outcome is finished, depending on counting procedures, holdups, and whether you're still waiting for any boxes.

Meanwhile, the head of the Mossos d'Esquadra has been accused of sedition for... failing to protect the Gardia Civil from protesters. So, now it's a crime against the state to not protect military police against civilian protesters? That's... interesting...

Are they reading an instruction manual in Madrid called "How to Be Incompetent Authoritarians"? Step by step, they've managed to make every wrong move:

  • Declare the referendum illegal, then use force to stop it even though—being illegal—it would be fine to just dismiss it afterwards.
  • Having decided to use force to prevent it, use force illegal in Catalonia.
  • Despite the situation continuing to get worse because of these actions, continue to insist there's no need for dialogue or mediation, as if being stubborn is going to resolve it. Including declaring a session of parliament banned for reasons verging on Insane Troll Logic.
  • Now accuse the head of Catalonia's police force of sedition. I'm sure this is going to help and not, y'know, lead to something even more stupid like declaring the Mossos d'Esquadra enemies of the state or terrorists or something equally stupid. Note: there is this minor concept of negligence that could be used if you absolutely had to charge with something...

edited 6th Oct '17 6:40:15 AM by RainehDaze

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#218: Oct 6th 2017 at 6:39:00 AM

[up][up]So? We had preliminary numbers almost a day before the official count for the german election was out too? See the other's arguments.

"You can reply to this Message!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#219: Oct 6th 2017 at 6:44:40 AM

Oh, the Spanish government has also apologised for the injuries... then blamed the Catalonian government because then vote was illegal. Blame shifting at its finest. "You made me hit you." Ditto for the making-it-easier-to-relocate decree.

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#220: Oct 6th 2017 at 6:51:49 AM

The Spanish legal argument is 'stop hitting yourself?'

That's a bold and civil defense argument, I must say.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#221: Oct 6th 2017 at 7:14:49 AM

That was the (crap) argument of Enric Millo, not the Constitutional Court, not even the high-ranking members of PP and/or the central government. He's the vice-secretary (not even a Secretary) of political and economical action within the local section of the PP. He's not very relevant.

I'd be more shocked if Rajoy publicly said something like that.

edited 6th Oct '17 7:17:15 AM by Quag15

Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#222: Oct 6th 2017 at 7:28:33 AM

The sedition accusation, however, is completely official, because it led to a hearing. And it shows how unreasonable the Spanish central government is being.

Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#223: Oct 6th 2017 at 7:47:01 AM

Madrid is preparing laws for companies in Spain to get out of Catalonian territory in case the independence thing is still a go.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#224: Oct 6th 2017 at 8:12:16 AM

How treasonous! To even consider the possibility!

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#225: Oct 6th 2017 at 8:29:49 AM

[up] Oh no, the accusation of sedition is for not protecting the police from protesters.


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